Politics

[Brent in Az]

The Hamas may be savages, but they are not completely stupid. They know that Israeli special forces will he searching for hostages, and plan accordingly.

 

[bowjijohn]

The Hamas may be savages, but they are not completely stupid. They know that Israeli special forces will he searching for hostages, and plan accordingly.

Thoughts that spring to mind

A lot of good people could lose their lives in such an HRT endeavour

Announcing SF deployment on national news smells of psyops

Not sensible to wave your trident in the air

As for the other news item…

That young lady that led a counter attack - if a genuine report - is quite extraordinary

No one knows how they might react when thrust into such a scenario

None of us

Additionally… our coping mechanisms and reactions are different on different days

Training narrows the bell curve

But to go from normality to reacting tactically to horror takes some doing

Hats off to her

 

[Daniel Cary]

The video I posted is the Ben Shapiro show. I didn't realize until this morning that the age restriction warning was all you could see. My apologies if anyone thought I was taking them to some nefarious creator.

Thank you .. Important for all to see.

 

[steve white]

My point isn't that grandma and the kids are going to be dressed up like rambo and take out a paramilitary unit with precise tactics. My point is that they could hear what was coming, far enough in advance to make final phone calls and such, but all they could do was hide in shelters with no locks or go running from their homes in a last desperate attempt to flee. This is Israel we're talking about. The gov't should encourage self defense but instead discouraged it and families died like cattle. Anybody can be trained to competently fire a weapon, especially the young and middle aged people who were killed, and motivation for doing so in such a region should be high. Give people a chance to shoot the guys trying to break down their doors or at least fend them off for a little while. Let that person who is going to hide in a shelter the satisfaction of giving at least the first guy to open the door a hot copper and lead lobotomy. Go out fighting like the strong people they want to be instead of cowering in a corner or being dragged out to your doom like their ancestors were.

As it turns out, the Israeli gov't is for now at least changing their stance on firearms.

Given that the ghettos in Poland were disarmed, and Hitler disarmed people all over before taking them off to the concentration camps, ONE WOULD THINK THAT ISRAEL WOULD UNDERSTAND THE DANGER OF DISARMAMENT!

 

[jpr9954]

It may have already been addressed here but one thing that we should not lose sight of and that this attack is a vivid reminder of what not to allow to happen: more gun control.

The Israeli people used to be a more or less armed society but over the years they have succumbed to the same nonsense perpetrated on us on a daily basis. You know the drill.

All the same things we hear they were told as well. Immediately after the attack, it was announced that citizens could bypass some of the nonsense and purchase weapons for personal protection.

Sort of like closing the barn door after the horse is gone, too little too late. I hope that when the dust settles, they go back to being an armed citizenry.

Had the people there been armed, it would have saved many lives and the carnage would have been much less devastating. Instead, it was a rout by well-armed murderers against defenseless citizens.

And we should never allow this BS to happen to us.

A couple that was armed died but not before killing 7 Hamas terrorists AND saving their twin 10-month old sons. Yes they died fighting but their children lived.

https://news.yahoo.com/tragic-story-israeli-couple-killed-170311162.html

 

[Red Leg]

Not sure how that would work out. The West Bank is fairly stable. From Jerusalem there are two crossing points. One by foot and one by vehicle. Lots of traffic from the West Bank into Israel mainly workers and some trade. Israeli cab drivers cannot enter into the West Bank. Only Arab cab drivers living in Israel can drive into the West Bank and take passengers over and back. There is a large wall around the West Bank at least in the Jerusalem area. The West Bank is controlled by what’s left of the PLO whereas Gaza was Hamas those two do not get along and would start a Civil War between the PLO and Hamas for power. Frankly, I don’t think the Jordanians want any Palestinians back in Jordan as they kicked them all out previously.

Despite the claims of Israeli security, I didn’t think much of it. The Cairo airport had more security than the Tel Aviv airport. And the border crossings at least between Israel and Jordan was fairly easy.

To your last point, I had an interesting conversation with my security guy on my last official trip to Israel. No one in the Middle East allows General Officers to simply wander around. He was a young captain in the Aman which is the IDF intelligence services.

I made a comment about the lack of a sense of overriding security at Ben Gurion Airport compared to major airports in the US and Europe. He smiled and said, "you spend a lot of time and resources looking at everyone. We spend a lot of time and resources looking for terrorists." The point being, that Israeli profiling skills are really pretty exceptional.

 

[sierraone]

I and three or four co-workers flew into Tel Avie (Ben Guron) from Amman on U.S. passports in the summer of 2008 (?) We were headed to Atlanta, but had a four hour layover. Because we had such a long layover, security required us to collect our bags and leave the airport completely and return 1-2 hours before our flight time, recheck and then head to the gate. We had to flag a taxi to take us to a cafe for several hours and then head back to the airport. Because the re-check in took so long, we barely made our midnight flight. Only time I have ever been kicked out of an airport. Only time in Israel.

 

[mdwest]

Frankly, I don’t think the Jordanians want any Palestinians back in Jordan as they kicked them all out previously.

There are still a TON of Palestinians in Jordan.. roughly 3M of the total 11M people in Jordan are Palestinians.. which is what puts the king in such a precarious position..

He doesnt want conflict with Israel.. but.. he also has just under 25% of his population that at a minimum are incredibly resentful of Israel and at a maximum are doing their best to support Gaza any way they can (financially, physically, etc)...

Then you have to factor in the 130K+ Iraqis living in Jordan.. most of whom brought a significant amount of wealth to the country when they fled Iraq (driving up housing prices much to the despair of the Jordanians.. much like Californians fleeing to TX).. Who he has to consider.. Thankfully (for him) the majority of the Iraqis are Sunni Baathists that hate the Iranians and really dont care much about the Palestinians.. but there is certainly a good bit of Iraqi Shia money and influence inside Jordan as well..

Then there are the 1.3M Syrians currently living in Jordan..

Almost 1/2 the population in Jordan.. isnt Jordanian.. and they are known (like most refugees) to not really care much about integrating into local society as much as they are insistent on bringing their own cultures, values, etc to wherever they land..

Then factor in the fact that the Crown Prince in Jordan is married to an affluent Saudi...

The King has to find a way to keep both the Saudis and the Palestinians happy with whatever his position is on the conflict..

He's in a sticky place no doubt..

 

[Rickmt]

Appreciate all of you who post valuable news on ME . I have learned more here than on Fox News . I like facts from people on the ground rather than the talking heads opinions.

 

[Inline6]

Appreciate all of you who post valuable news on ME . I have learned more here than on Fox News . I like facts from people on the ground rather than the talking heads opinions.

When it comes to guns and shooting, I can usually lend a hand.

What I really like about AH is the amount of diverse and educated individuals. I definitely appreciate the dialog and the opportunity to learn.

These are the threads that I enjoy reading, rarely comment. I know when to stay in my lane, haha.

Thanks for the information gents.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Apologies if my question may seem like I’m a genocidal psychopath, but its a thought exercise on the most extreme response to the gaza war.

Preamble of what I believe to be true: The rest of Palestine, excluding the Gaza Strip, while no garden of roses, is fairly stable. (E.g. West Bank). The Gaza Strip is tiny, we’re talking about a land-locked, isolated, 400 square kilometer area. It’s flanked by Israel on two sides, Egypt on one, the sea to the West.

The most extreme possible response: Load up the women and children, ship them by bus to the West Bank. Vet the men that want out, ship them to the West Bank if they do not appear to be militant. (Surely some will be, but disarmed)

Next, raze the ground to dust. Gone. Glass. Poof.

The fallout from this? Israel of course would outrage Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, UAE, and Saudi. Iran would fund Hezbollah as usual out of the West Bank, but that is a hodge-podge cluster of islands of Palestinian rule in towns, not a porous border region like Gaza. Yes, Israel would be the bad guys for using such barbarous tactics, but they’d literally solve half the Palestinian conflict in one fell swoop, and could deal with the West Bank with more peaceful means where individual areas can be reasoned with independently.

Beyond the backlash from the Pan-Arabs, what would be the fallout from such an approach rather than having these perpetual incursions? Gaza is a breeding factory for terrorists that isn’t going to end with skirmishes that kill a few thousand fighters. (2m people = 400,000 conscripted soldiers?)

P.S. - If my hypothetical question seems absolutely end-of-times apocalyptic, I’d remind the reader they have Levites and Cohenites preparing the temple rituals right now, they have a red heifer ready to sacrifice, and the plans for the 3rd temple are drawn up. Gaza situation hardly seems quite so end of times as the other activities happening in Israel at the moment when razing Al Aqsa is on the drawing board.

In addition to @Red Leg's reply, I think this idea would play right into the hands of Hamas and more specifically their Iranian backers. Just my opinion, but I believe they want a reaction from Israel that will appear over the top and turn opinion against them. Furthermore such a reaction would at the very least delay if not permanently put a stop to the normalization of Israel / Saudi Arabian relations.

This is the greatest threat to the Iranians as it helps to secure the end of their goal to obliterate Israel.

 

[Datchew]

Given that the ghettos in Poland were disarmed, and Hitler disarmed people all over before taking them off to the concentration camps, ONE WOULD THINK THAT ISRAEL WOULD UNDERSTAND THE DANGER OF DISARMAMENT!

This is what amazes me as well.

I used to have a team in Budapest and went there a lot. Warsaw too but they were a little more reasonable, though muted about it.
Germans, Russians, Huns, Ottomans - they'd had heaps of historical occupation and oppression sessions. I mean the Russians were still running secret police in Budapest until 1991-ish? For most Americans, WW2 ended circa 1945. not so much over there.

I always was curious how weird it was that they asked the American about guns. Do you have guns? Do you know how to shoot? Can you own guns there?

I remember asking a friend, Peter, in Budapest - why aren't ALL of you carrying 2 guys? Your history seems like you're be the most heavily armed people on earth. One on the hip, one in the car, one in the closet.

His response was that people don't think about it much, aren't really engaged, and generally try not to think about history. Kinda nonchalant in my view.
Totally floors me how non-threat-conscious people are as they go through life.

 

[Josh P]

On the subject of hostages, wasn't the last Israeli exchange 1000:1? If that ratio played out with the numbers they (hamas) supposedly have currently, they may be trying to leverage that against final retaliation. I don't know enough to know if that is a sound tactic or not, or even if they have that in mind.

 

[rookhawk]

In addition to @Red Leg's reply, I think this idea would play right into the hands of Hamas and more specifically their Iranian backers. Just my opinion, but I believe they want a reaction from Israel that will appear over the top and turn opinion against them. Furthermore such a reaction would at the very least delay if not permanently put a stop to the normalization of Israel / Saudi Arabian relations.

This is the greatest threat to the Iranians as it helps to secure the end of their goal to obliterate Israel.

My hypothetical question isn't so hypothetical this morning:

"As fears mounted inside the enclave of an imminent assault, an Israeli defence official vowed that Gaza will become a 'tent city' with every building razed."

Hamas rocket slams into Israeli hospital's child development centre

The strike was just one of many launched by the armed wings of Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad, who declared they were targeting multiple locations in southern and central Israel with rockets

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[WAB]

We were in Israel in January. We have two friends there now, one leading a group and the other as a member of a different group. The friend leading actually lived there for 30 years. They are in Jerusalem, carrying on with their visit and report business as usual with all sites open.

The other friend was in a large tour group (5 buses). They were driven to Amman, dropped at a hotel, told they were on their own to get home and there would be no refunds.

Amazing the difference in two different on the ground experiences. No wonder it’s so hard to make sense of the news coming out!

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

We were in Israel in January. We have two friends there now, one leading a group and the other as a member of a different group. The friend leading actually lived there for 30 years. They are in Jerusalem, carrying on with their visit and report business as usual with all sites open.

The other friend was in a large tour group (5 buses). They were driven to Amman, dropped at a hotel, told they were on their own to get home and there would be no refunds.

Amazing the difference in two different on the ground experiences. No wonder it’s so hard to make sense of the news coming out!

A friend of mine left yesterday for an extended vacation that was to include in part touring of Israel. The entire Israel portion of the trip was re-booked to tour areas not Israel. I don't like to overreact to things, but I can say I'm glad he will not be caught up in this mess.

 

[rookhawk]

I am sometimes stunned by the - creativity? - of some of what is written in the politics thread.

These are photos of the Waffen SS marching away women and children from the Warsaw Ghetto during the 1943 Jewish uprising. I somehow doubt I would be the only one who would notice the rather stark parallels. And there would be parallels. I assume airconditioned busses by the thousands aren't likely to line up to board smiling, if traumatized, mothers and children.
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Move them to the West Bank which includes East Jerusalem? That would effectively double the Palestinian population on the West Bank and double the population next to one of the densest Jewish settled areas in the country. It would also inject into that area 2 million people with destroyed livelihoods. Those displaced people and their grievances would overwhelm nearly five decades of joint cooperative work between the State of Israel and Jordan to create an area of relatively little militant activity where Palestinians could live relatively normal lives.

@Red Leg Your response actually is grimmer than my "worst case hypothetical". By your calculus, it appears the safer approach worst-case for Israel would be to raze Gaza with the occupants still present.

Moving civilians, to your point... off the table.

Killing the bad guys in Gaza? Which ones? When you start blowing up peoples homes, mosques, hospitals, schools (where they hide the weapons and the terrorists) you generally make more...terrorists.

What is the winnable game for the Israelis to deal with Gaza? You have to neutralize the threat, but how do you do that without 20:1 civilian causualities?

 

[Red Leg]

@Red Leg Your response actually is grimmer than my "worst case hypothetical". By your calculus, it appears the safer approach worst-case for Israel would be to raze Gaza with the occupants still present.

Moving civilians, to your point... off the table.

Killing the bad guys in Gaza? Which ones? When you start blowing up peoples homes, mosques, hospitals, schools (where they hide the weapons and the terrorists) you generally make more...terrorists.

What is the winnable game for the Israelis to deal with Gaza? You have to neutralize the threat, but how do you do that without 20:1 civilian causualities?

I don't pretend to have a true solution, but treating Gaza like Carthage and creating 2 million refugees will flip the script on everything Israel has tried to accomplish over the last decade and substantially change the narrative about this conflict. What I think Israel can do, is buy another generation of relative calm in Gaza by killing every Hamas associated person they can target and through the resulting collateral damage which impacts the willingness to host Hamas and their ilk. It will take another 10-20 years to recreate a terrorist army that is a real threat at which point Israel will have to do it again.

This is one reason I find the comparisons of Israel to the Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem not that far off the mark. Israel, as the Jewish state will never be assimilated into the Levantine Arab world. It is essentially a European culture, despite its cultural history, grafted onto the coast of a fundamentally different Islamic culture. The Latin Kingdom Of Jerusalem survived for not quite 200 years.

 

[rookhawk]

I don't pretend to have a true solution, but treating Gaza like Carthage and creating 2 million refugees will flip the script on everything Israel has tried to accomplish over the last decade and substantially change the narrative about this conflict. What I think Israel can do, is buy another generation of relative calm in Gaza by killing every Hamas associated person they can target and through the resulting collateral damage which impacts the willingness to host Hamas and their ilk. It will take another 10-20 years to recreate a terrorist army that is a real threat at which point Israel will have to do it again.

Assuming that this was an unknown, unforeseen attack on Israel, the inference is that their intelligence apparatus in Gaza was beyond terrible.

With that inference assumed, the ability to kill off terrorists associated with Hamas within Gaza seems very difficult to do now or in the future. I'm hearing reports that most of the officer apparatus of Hamas lives an opulent life in Doha and elsewhere while street thugs are recruited on the ground.

@Red Leg I'm not sure how you cut the head off the snake, much less kill the snake in the above scenario?

Killing those with guns is one obvious option, but what happens when they drop their rifles and blend into the populace? How does Israel do any of this without an occupancy force for years, interviewing neighbors, etc? They'd have to occupy Gaza and overthrow the government to clean house?

 

[spike.t]

Not going to put on here what I think should be done....but it doesn't involve being politically correct....Will let you decide what I would do.....