Politics

[geoff rath]

I repeat my earlier comments: the hostages are all but dead; ANYONE that the IDF actually captures should be treated as hostile, a simple skin test for gunpowder residue would be interesting, be they male, female or even children. Such a brutal, inhumane attack deserves a like response, no quarter given. Look at what is happening here in OZ, large unlawful anti-Israeli protests, allowed by state governments and police inaction; Palestinian supporters allegedly searching city area for "Jews to burn". Whole suburbs of Sydney are Arab, pro-Hamas/Palestinian enclaves, other major cities the same.

 

[Hunt anything]

Sorry for not being more clear.

The leaders of Hamas are too good to live in Gaza. They have been living in luxury in Doha for quite awhile. Right after the attacks on Israel there was a group photo of the Hamas leaders praying at a hotel in Doha.

A bomb to the hotel would be too good for them, put them in a tank of pigs blood take them up to 30,000 feet in a C5A and have a Jew throw each one out into the middle of the Atlantic Ocean.
Thanks for the clarification.

 

[CJW]

Any chance the Israelis may have had some “workers” mixed in with the construction crews that built many of the structures in Gaza? This would help knowing the layouts of some of the possible hostage locations if a raid is attempted.

Apparently there are countless miles of tunnels under Gaza. They won't be freed in some heroic raid.

 

[CJW]

It may have already been addressed here but one thing that we should not lose sight of and that this attack is a vivid reminder of what not to allow to happen: more gun control.

The Israeli people used to be a more or less armed society but over the years they have succumbed to the same nonsense perpetrated on us on a daily basis. You know the drill.

All the same things we hear they were told as well. Immediately after the attack, it was announced that citizens could bypass some of the nonsense and purchase weapons for personal protection.

Sort of like closing the barn door after the horse is gone, too little too late. I hope that when the dust settles, they go back to being an armed citizenry.

Had the people there been armed, it would have saved many lives and the carnage would have been much less devastating. Instead, it was a rout by well-armed murderers against defenseless citizens.

And we should never allow this BS to happen to us.

I keep hearing stories of people just waiting to be slaughtered. I am not a piece of livestock and I don't plan go out like one. Those people are surrounded by people who hate them and their gov't makes it almost impossible for them to defend themselves and it seems that the military was too busy being complacent to defend their people.

 

[mark-hunter]

Hostage rescue op, and somehow I am not surprised :

Delta Force and SEAL Team Six readied to help Israel rescue hostages

Delta Force and SEAL Team Six are on standby in a nearby European country, The Messenger reported on Tuesday, and are ready to move in to Israel to help rescue hostages if need be.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[mark-hunter]

I keep hearing stories of people just waiting to be slaughtered. I am not a piece of livestock and I don't plan go out like one. Those people are surrounded by people who hate them and their gov't makes it almost impossible for them to defend themselves and it seems that the military was too busy being complacent to defend their people.

I am far away from this conflict, in a far away land.
But I can tell you this, in my family I am at this moment the only one (very arguably) capable of defending my family, with willingness, skill, tools, and motivation. And even with that I doubt how much I would be able to defend against trainied paralimitary unit, unsuspected coordinated attack, with assault weapons, grenades' and launchers

When I am not at home, when I work, there is nobody to help (except LEO).
So, I am sure that average family has same situation, many times - civilians they are simply defenseless against paramilitary units. This is in my country, yours, or any other, if it happens

And on a govt part, you seam to be right. No 2/a there in Israel. only 2% of population owns some firearm.
Licenses issued on police discretion.

 

[rookhawk]

Apologies if my question may seem like I’m a genocidal psychopath, but its a thought exercise on the most extreme response to the gaza war.

Preamble of what I believe to be true: The rest of Palestine, excluding the Gaza Strip, while no garden of roses, is fairly stable. (E.g. West Bank). The Gaza Strip is tiny, we’re talking about a land-locked, isolated, 400 square kilometer area. It’s flanked by Israel on two sides, Egypt on one, the sea to the West.

The most extreme possible response: Load up the women and children, ship them by bus to the West Bank. Vet the men that want out, ship them to the West Bank if they do not appear to be militant. (Surely some will be, but disarmed)

Next, raze the ground to dust. Gone. Glass. Poof.

The fallout from this? Israel of course would outrage Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, UAE, and Saudi. Iran would fund Hezbollah as usual out of the West Bank, but that is a hodge-podge cluster of islands of Palestinian rule in towns, not a porous border region like Gaza. Yes, Israel would be the bad guys for using such barbarous tactics, but they’d literally solve half the Palestinian conflict in one fell swoop, and could deal with the West Bank with more peaceful means where individual areas can be reasoned with independently.

Beyond the backlash from the Pan-Arabs, what would be the fallout from such an approach rather than having these perpetual incursions? Gaza is a breeding factory for terrorists that isn’t going to end with skirmishes that kill a few thousand fighters. (2m people = 400,000 conscripted soldiers?)

P.S. - If my hypothetical question seems absolutely end-of-times apocalyptic, I’d remind the reader they have Levites and Cohenites preparing the temple rituals right now, they have a red heifer ready to sacrifice, and the plans for the 3rd temple are drawn up. Gaza situation hardly seems quite so end of times as the other activities happening in Israel at the moment when razing Al Aqsa is on the drawing board.

 

[CJW]

I am far away from this conflict, in a far away land.
But I can tell you this, in my family I am at this moment the only one (very arguably) capable of defending my family, with willingness, skill, tools, and motivation. And even with that I doubt how much I would be able to defend against trainied paralimitary unit, unsuspected coordinated attack, with assault weapons, grenades' and launchers

When I am not at home, when I work, there is nobody to help (except LEO).
So, I am sure that average family has same situation, many times - civilians they are simply defenseless against paramilitary units. This is in my country, yours, or any other, if it happens

And on a govt part, you seam to be right. No 2/a there in Israel. only 2% of population owns some firearm.
Licenses issued on police discretion.

My point isn't that grandma and the kids are going to be dressed up like rambo and take out a paramilitary unit with precise tactics. My point is that they could hear what was coming, far enough in advance to make final phone calls and such, but all they could do was hide in shelters with no locks or go running from their homes in a last desperate attempt to flee. This is Israel we're talking about. The gov't should encourage self defense but instead discouraged it and families died like cattle. Anybody can be trained to competently fire a weapon, especially the young and middle aged people who were killed, and motivation for doing so in such a region should be high. Give people a chance to shoot the guys trying to break down their doors or at least fend them off for a little while. Let that person who is going to hide in a shelter the satisfaction of giving at least the first guy to open the door a hot copper and lead lobotomy. Go out fighting like the strong people they want to be instead of cowering in a corner or being dragged out to your doom like their ancestors were.

As it turns out, the Israeli gov't is for now at least changing their stance on firearms.

 

[fourfive8]

What we are seeing now in ME has been going on for a long time- hundreds if not thousands of years. The latest round began fomenting under idiot Carter. Current extreme leadership in Iran began then. 20 years of playing whackamole in Afghanistan. Similar in Iraq. Obama playing footsie with Iran with direct payments and rewards for being the world's largest exporter of terror. And now a continuation of that with what appears to be Obama's third term. Forget Biden, he is a weak, senile idiot criminal thug whose strings are pulled as a puppet from the shadows. We have woke idiots in charge of the military now operating under their civilian gov counterparts. Milley currently openly lying about not knowing what woke means. What! I watched him giving a speech claiming to be transitioning the military to a woke system! Milley just tip of iceberg. His replacement likely a quieter version of same. Make no mistake, Milley's actions under Trump were a clear definition of treason and had nothing to do with the protocol of following or not following unlawful orders. A difference that many apparently, especially those with TDS can't understand or don't want to understand. The Admin., including idiot boy Blinken (backed up by Kirby), claiming the latest 6 billion released to Iran is for humanitarian use only. Then in next sentence saying that Iran regularly uses such money for anything it wants. WTH! and he said it with a straight, deadpan face! Open border here that everyone in the Admin. keep telling us is not open. Good Lord people quit listening to the clowns on MSM and judge for yourselves. The illegal count under Biden is 7-8 million and counting. A deep filthy swamp in DC at all levels that is operating in plain sight. A weaponized DOJ that is corrupt at all levels with a truly evil leader in charge. A judicial system loaded with political hacks who openly brag about being political. A low IQ head of homeland security who has lied for his handlers so much he may not even know he's lying. The list goes on as does the destruction of our country.... but pay no attention to all that, blame Trump.

 

[Hunt anything]

Apparently there are countless miles of tunnels under Gaza. They won't be freed in some heroic raid.

I heard that last night, unless a miracle occurs those people are probably dead.

 

[mark-hunter]

@CJV

You certainly have a point!

 

[Red Leg]

Apologies if my question may seem like I’m a genocidal psychopath, but its a thought exercise on the most extreme response to the gaza war.

Preamble of what I believe to be true: The rest of Palestine, excluding the Gaza Strip, while no garden of roses, is fairly stable. (E.g. West Bank). The Gaza Strip is tiny, we’re talking about a land-locked, isolated, 400 square kilometer area. It’s flanked by Israel on two sides, Egypt on one, the sea to the West.

The most extreme possible response: Load up the women and children, ship them by bus to the West Bank. Vet the men that want out, ship them to the West Bank if they do not appear to be militant. (Surely some will be, but disarmed)

Next, raze the ground to dust. Gone. Glass. Poof.

The fallout from this? Israel of course would outrage Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, UAE, and Saudi. Iran would fund Hezbollah as usual out of the West Bank, but that is a hodge-podge cluster of islands of Palestinian rule in towns, not a porous border region like Gaza. Yes, Israel would be the bad guys for using such barbarous tactics, but they’d literally solve half the Palestinian conflict in one fell swoop, and could deal with the West Bank with more peaceful means where individual areas can be reasoned with independently.

Beyond the backlash from the Pan-Arabs, what would be the fallout from such an approach rather than having these perpetual incursions? Gaza is a breeding factory for terrorists that isn’t going to end with skirmishes that kill a few thousand fighters. (2m people = 400,000 conscripted soldiers?)

P.S. - If my hypothetical question seems absolutely end-of-times apocalyptic, I’d remind the reader they have Levites and Cohenites preparing the temple rituals right now, they have a red heifer ready to sacrifice, and the plans for the 3rd temple are drawn up. Gaza situation hardly seems quite so end of times as the other activities happening in Israel at the moment when razing Al Aqsa is on the drawing board.

I am sometimes stunned by the - creativity? - of some of what is written in the politics thread.

These are photos of the Waffen SS marching away women and children from the Warsaw Ghetto during the 1943 Jewish uprising. I somehow doubt I would be the only one who would notice the rather stark parallels. And there would be parallels. I assume airconditioned busses by the thousands aren't likely to line up to board smiling, if traumatized, mothers and children.

Move them to the West Bank which includes East Jerusalem? That would effectively double the Palestinian population on the West Bank and double the population next to one of the densest Jewish settled areas in the country. It would also inject into that area 2 million people with destroyed livelihoods. Those displaced people and their grievances would overwhelm nearly five decades of joint cooperative work between the State of Israel and Jordan to create an area of relatively little militant activity where Palestinians could live relatively normal lives.

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

Apologies if my question may seem like I’m a genocidal psychopath, but its a thought exercise on the most extreme response to the gaza war.

Preamble of what I believe to be true: The rest of Palestine, excluding the Gaza Strip, while no garden of roses, is fairly stable. (E.g. West Bank). The Gaza Strip is tiny, we’re talking about a land-locked, isolated, 400 square kilometer area. It’s flanked by Israel on two sides, Egypt on one, the sea to the West.

The most extreme possible response: Load up the women and children, ship them by bus to the West Bank. Vet the men that want out, ship them to the West Bank if they do not appear to be militant. (Surely some will be, but disarmed)

Next, raze the ground to dust. Gone. Glass. Poof.

The fallout from this? Israel of course would outrage Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, UAE, and Saudi. Iran would fund Hezbollah as usual out of the West Bank, but that is a hodge-podge cluster of islands of Palestinian rule in towns, not a porous border region like Gaza. Yes, Israel would be the bad guys for using such barbarous tactics, but they’d literally solve half the Palestinian conflict in one fell swoop, and could deal with the West Bank with more peaceful means where individual areas can be reasoned with independently.

Beyond the backlash from the Pan-Arabs, what would be the fallout from such an approach rather than having these perpetual incursions? Gaza is a breeding factory for terrorists that isn’t going to end with skirmishes that kill a few thousand fighters. (2m people = 400,000 conscripted soldiers?)

P.S. - If my hypothetical question seems absolutely end-of-times apocalyptic, I’d remind the reader they have Levites and Cohenites preparing the temple rituals right now, they have a red heifer ready to sacrifice, and the plans for the 3rd temple are drawn up. Gaza situation hardly seems quite so end of times as the other activities happening in Israel at the moment when razing Al Aqsa is on the drawing board.

Agree with your Gaza Exodus plan, except why level the place? Let the Israelis move in. Also, with the Gaza strip having coast line, I wouldn't call it "land-locked."

Israel has cut off all utilities to Gaza. The place will be unlivable very soon. March all the Palestinians out to Egypt or wherever.

 

[Red Leg]

My point isn't that grandma and the kids are going to be dressed up like rambo and take out a paramilitary unit with precise tactics. My point is that they could hear what was coming, far enough in advance to make final phone calls and such, but all they could do was hide in shelters with no locks or go running from their homes in a last desperate attempt to flee. This is Israel we're talking about. The gov't should encourage self defense but instead discouraged it and families died like cattle. Anybody can be trained to competently fire a weapon, especially the young and middle aged people who were killed, and motivation for doing so in such a region should be high. Give people a chance to shoot the guys trying to break down their doors or at least fend them off for a little while. Let that person who is going to hide in a shelter the satisfaction of giving at least the first guy to open the door a hot copper and lead lobotomy. Go out fighting like the strong people they want to be instead of cowering in a corner or being dragged out to your doom like their ancestors were.

As it turns out, the Israeli gov't is for now at least changing their stance on firearms.

This is what could - even should - have happened at every Kibbutz that was assaulted. However, like every unalerted defensive effort, much depends on the quality and sometimes luck of the leadership available at the time of the surprise attack. This young woman and her team reacted effectively and with great courage. In too many other settlements, the population died in their "safe" rooms.

Early Action by 25-Year-Old Israeli Woman Saves Kibbutz from Hamas

A young Israeli woman is being hailed as a hero after her early action helped to save an entire kibbutz from being brutally killed by Hamas terrorists.

www.breitbart.com

 

[Hunt anything]

Does Israel still have compulsory military service, if so everyone has some firearm training and if they had been armed they could have slowed the murderers down some taken a few out and others could have been ready instead of just hiding and waiting to be slaughtered.

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ar-hamas-gaza-strip-live-updates/71127476007/

Israel's overwhelming response may foreshadow a concerted attempt to end Hamas' reign, some experts believe, in contrast to the four previous conflicts since 2008, which essentially ended with the sides deadlocked and the militant organization still in power.

“The objective is for this war to end very differently from all of the previous rounds,'' said Chuck Freilich, a former deputy national security adviser in Israel. "There has to be a clear victory.”

 

[Red Leg]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ar-hamas-gaza-strip-live-updates/71127476007/

Israel's overwhelming response may foreshadow a concerted attempt to end Hamas' reign, some experts believe, in contrast to the four previous conflicts since 2008, which essentially ended with the sides deadlocked and the militant organization still in power.

“The objective is for this war to end very differently from all of the previous rounds,'' said Chuck Freilich, a former deputy national security adviser in Israel. "There has to be a clear victory.”

Absolutely. An enclave of 2 million people of which 20-25 thousand are actual members of Hamas.

 

[mark-hunter]

March all the Palestinians out to Egypt or wherever.

The backlash of this strategy in other parts of The world is now illegal immigrating crises that Europe is facing.
Nowhere to go, refugees and immigrants flood western countries of Europe, legally or illegaly. Not surprisingly many times after their country has been ravaged by war. They come from middle east, far east, and north Africa. They walk from Afghanistan or take rubber dinghies across Mediterranean sea.

Red leg has highlighted the problem very clearly.

After similar strategy has been implemented in Croatian war of independence with open corridors for Serbian civilians to withdraw during final military offensive in 95, most of them never came back after the war. Many came to Serbia, have not been treated kindly by then Serbian govt (the Serbian politics was to send them to Kosovo and settle there), and finally within few years of surviving with refugee status many went to Western countries by mostly legal channels. (this was in 95 few years before Nato bombing campaign in Serbia in 99).

International court for war crimes indicted high ranking officers of Croatia and then president for this strategy - for war crimes (ethnic cleansing), but finally they have never been sentenced.
Serbian govt, till day, claims of war crimes of this period. Political tension between two countries remain on this issue.
This is now a modern model of refugee migration. Whre to go, who will take them?
If the Israeli military action creates 2 million of civilian refugees to neighboring countries, international community will react, up till war crimes indictments.

The question remains how to clean 10-20.000 hamas millitants from urban areas mixed with civilian population, and how to demilitarize Gaza?
Military way is hard.
But political (correct) way is even harder.

 

[mark-hunter]

Does Israel still have compulsory military service,

Yes they have for men and women, alike.

More over, military and security personnel on leave, carry their service weapons home', and they can carry open in civilian clothes.
Thats why and how several terrorist attacks on street have been stopped short, but when superficially looking media reports, it looks like civilians were carrying m4 rifles. Not so. Active duty personnel, on leave.

 

[wesheltonj]

Apologies if my question may seem like I’m a genocidal psychopath, but its a thought exercise on the most extreme response to the gaza war.

Preamble of what I believe to be true: The rest of Palestine, excluding the Gaza Strip, while no garden of roses, is fairly stable. (E.g. West Bank). The Gaza Strip is tiny, we’re talking about a land-locked, isolated, 400 square kilometer area. It’s flanked by Israel on two sides, Egypt on one, the sea to the West.

The most extreme possible response: Load up the women and children, ship them by bus to the West Bank. Vet the men that want out, ship them to the West Bank if they do not appear to be militant. (Surely some will be, but disarmed)

Next, raze the ground to dust. Gone. Glass. Poof.

The fallout from this? Israel of course would outrage Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, UAE, and Saudi. Iran would fund Hezbollah as usual out of the West Bank, but that is a hodge-podge cluster of islands of Palestinian rule in towns, not a porous border region like Gaza. Yes, Israel would be the bad guys for using such barbarous tactics, but they’d literally solve half the Palestinian conflict in one fell swoop, and could deal with the West Bank with more peaceful means where individual areas can be reasoned with independently.

Beyond the backlash from the Pan-Arabs, what would be the fallout from such an approach rather than having these perpetual incursions? Gaza is a breeding factory for terrorists that isn’t going to end with skirmishes that kill a few thousand fighters. (2m people = 400,000 conscripted soldiers?)

P.S. - If my hypothetical question seems absolutely end-of-times apocalyptic, I’d remind the reader they have Levites and Cohenites preparing the temple rituals right now, they have a red heifer ready to sacrifice, and the plans for the 3rd temple are drawn up. Gaza situation hardly seems quite so end of times as the other activities happening in Israel at the moment when razing Al Aqsa is on the drawing board.

Not sure how that would work out. The West Bank is fairly stable. From Jerusalem there are two crossing points. One by foot and one by vehicle. Lots of traffic from the West Bank into Israel mainly workers and some trade. Israeli cab drivers cannot enter into the West Bank. Only Arab cab drivers living in Israel can drive into the West Bank and take passengers over and back. There is a large wall around the West Bank at least in the Jerusalem area. The West Bank is controlled by what’s left of the PLO whereas Gaza was Hamas those two do not get along and would start a Civil War between the PLO and Hamas for power. Frankly, I don’t think the Jordanians want any Palestinians back in Jordan as they kicked them all out previously.

Despite the claims of Israeli security, I didn’t think much of it. The Cairo airport had more security than the Tel Aviv airport. And the border crossings at least between Israel and Jordan was fairly easy.