Politics

[jpr9954]

 

[Wheels]

 

[Wheels]

 

[Wheels]

 

[Jfet]

View attachment 501144

I’ve missed something along the way. Which is not surprising.
The Putin invasion of Ukraine reminds me of what was happening in Europe in the mid to late 1930’s.

Questions: These are sent to the general population of this thread
1. How do we provide help to Ukrainian people without the above cartoon being true?

2. Do the Ukrainian people even deserve help?

3. Is this conflict a planned event between Russia and Ukraine to fleece money from the West?

Thank you for taking the time to respond.

 

[ActionBob]

I’ve missed something along the way. Which is not surprising.
The Putin invasion of Ukraine reminds me of what was happening in Europe in the mid to late 1930’s.

Questions: These are sent to the general population of this thread
1. How do we provide help to Ukrainian people without the above cartoon being true?

2. Do the Ukrainian people even deserve help?

3. Is this conflict a planned event between Russia and Ukraine to fleece money from the West?

Thank you for taking the time to respond.

1. From what I've read from previous informed posts on this thread. Most of what the US has given to the Ukraine is actual arms or weapons systems, not money. Of course those weapons have a value and that value number is what is most often reported to the public. I mean even the government has to have an accounting system. For example I sell milk, cull cows, a few replacement heifers, some bull calves, feeder cattle, and a few fat cattle. Of course we keep track of how many cwts of milk and head of cattle. But ultimately it is the Dollars that are important and what we report to the IRS. Likewise I'm sure the Pentagon has an accounting of the weapons transfered to Ukraine. But congress allocates dollars for those weapons.

As for the shenanigans going on. I really think those crooks would be doing the crap they do if there was no conflict in Ukraine. The cartoon would just have different labels.

2. I think so. But the more important and overlooked issue is that of a much broader scale. Putin had or perhaps still has much bigger goals. He wants back the former Soviet Empire. I have no idea how he thought he would proceed into NATO Countries, but the guy is obviously delusional.

Putin should have been stopped in Crimea. Remember Obama thinking the microphone was off and telling Putin that after the election he could much easier give him what he wanted?

3. That is real reach. However our feckless politicians certainly let this situation fleece us. Remember Biden stating that his reaction would be dependent upon the level of aggression. I think he mentioned something about a "minor incursion" not warranting much response..... Weak leaders give bullies a lot of confidence.

 

[PARA45]

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Winston S. Churchill

In War: Resolution
In Defeat: Defiance
In Victory: Magnanimity
In Peace: Good Will

Hmmmm, the Democrats don't seem to follow Winston, their version is:
In War: (as in local conflict), fuel the fire
In Defeat: Denial
In Victory: Take everything and kick when down
In Peace: Create chaos

 

[Wheels]

I’ve missed something along the way. Which is not surprising.
The Putin invasion of Ukraine reminds me of what was happening in Europe in the mid to late 1930’s.

Questions: These are sent to the general population of this thread
1. How do we provide help to Ukrainian people without the above cartoon being true?

2. Do the Ukrainian people even deserve help?

3. Is this conflict a planned event between Russia and Ukraine to fleece money from the West?

Thank you for taking the time to respond.

1. Regarding the meme, America has obviously given billions to Ukraine in both military and "humanitarian" aid. Ukraine put money into FTX and FTX/SBF has sent $37 m to Democrats for the midterm elections. Another person at FTX evidently gave around $20m to Republicans. Low and behold, now the DC swamp wants to give another $37 billion to Ukraine post election. Republican congressmen are saying that there have been no audits of these funds and are calling for audits but from some of what I have read America doesn't have a good handle on where the funds or all the weapons have gone. Audit's would help but with billions being thrown around there will be a tremendous amount of corruption

2. I take a different position than many on AH. I feel for the Ukrainian people but not for Ukraine. Ukraine has been run by a bunch of corrupt oligarchs since the USSR split up, just like Russia. Why are we/America supporting one corrupt regime over the other when we already have massive problems. Why saddle our children and grandchildren with debt they will never be able to repay for a country run by a bunch of corrupt oligarchs. IMO, let Europe take care of their own problems.

3. I don't think it is planned but proves the adage, don't let a crisis go to waste. Everything these days is a crisis. Covid, Climate Change, etc. designed to separate the American taxpayer from their money. The money gets laundered and makes it's way back to those who approved or friends of those who approved the expenditures.

 

[Ray B]

The confusion as to Ukraine events is prompted by two aspects.
1. If Donald Trump were still president, the US would dominate the oil pricing, oil would be about $30/bbl and Russia could not have afforded to start a war with Ukraine.

2. There are financial and apparent ties of corruption between Ukraine and Biden/family giving credibility to theories on final disposition of Ukraine aid.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

The problem is that there are much bigger things at stake here than just Ukraine. Russia has to be stopped, period. To achieve that with money and no Nato or US boots on the ground is worth an awful lot and $37 billion is cheap at the price.
As to Nato, Germany and France in particular, they should be ashamed of themselves. Trump had it 100% right, they are coat tailing and sucking the USA shamefully. The new rules should be that you pay up or leave.

 

[John Wasmuth]

1. Regarding the meme, America has obviously given billions to Ukraine in both military and "humanitarian" aid. Ukraine put money into FTX and FTX/SBF has sent $37 m to Democrats for the midterm elections. Another person at FTX evidently gave around $20m to Republicans. Low and behold, now the DC swamp wants to give another $37 billion to Ukraine post election. Republican congressmen are saying that there have been no audits of these funds and are calling for audits but from some of what I have read America doesn't have a good handle on where the funds or all the weapons have gone. Audit's would help but with billions being thrown around there will be a tremendous amount of corruption

2. I take a different position than many on AH. I feel for the Ukrainian people but not for Ukraine. Ukraine has been run by a bunch of corrupt oligarchs since the USSR split up, just like Russia. Why are we/America supporting one corrupt regime over the other when we already have massive problems. Why saddle our children and grandchildren with debt they will never be able to repay for a country run by a bunch of corrupt oligarchs. IMO, let Europe take care of their own problems.

3. I don't think it is planned but proves the adage, don't let a crisis go to waste. Everything these days is a crisis. Covid, Climate Change, etc. designed to separate the American taxpayer from their money. The money gets laundered and makes it's way back to those who approved or friends of those who approved the expenditures.

Absolute truth.

 

[Jfet]

Thank You for responding

Europe take care of their own problems.

That has been said before in the 1930’s and i feel the cost that was payed in the 1940’s was extreme. Did we need to be sending large amounts of financial aid to Ukraine two years ago?(I picked that time because it was clearly before Putin invaded back in February) No, one would have had a hard time making that point to me. However, now I believe we need to be pushing large amounts of military aid to Ukraine. This does not include U.S. soldiers. The Ukrainian soldiers seem to be doing just fine. Especially, when they have enough ammunition to use. Putin needs to be stopped. The other people in the world who think like Putin need to see that the world stands up to this activity and opposes it. I believe that paying this cost now it will prevent a much greater cost in the future.

The link below provides a much more learned and eloquent discussion of American Isolationism in the 1930’s. I do believe we have to be careful of letting the pendulum swing to far either direction.

American Isolationism | History of Western Civilization II

courses.lumenlearning.com

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

The confusion as to Ukraine events is prompted by two aspects.
1. If Donald Trump were still president, the US would dominate the oil pricing, oil would be about $30/bbl and Russia could not have afforded to start a war with Ukraine.

No on the oil price. Agree with you on Russia not starting the war, but for different reasons.

 

[Hogpatrol]

Never underestimate the power of the U.S. military industrial complex and their patrones in Congress and Washington. Whatever shenanigans they have to pull to keep that machine running, they will. The cessation of hostilities in Afghanistan left a big hole in their bottom lines. Watch for shit to start in Iran next. It never ends and never will end. It's all about the MONEY.

 

[Red Leg]

I’ve missed something along the way. Which is not surprising.
The Putin invasion of Ukraine reminds me of what was happening in Europe in the mid to late 1930’s.

Questions: These are sent to the general population of this thread
1. How do we provide help to Ukrainian people without the above cartoon being true?

2. Do the Ukrainian people even deserve help?

3. Is this conflict a planned event between Russia and Ukraine to fleece money from the West?

Thank you for taking the time to respond.

@ActionBob has given you an accurate response to your question. The critics of supporting Ukraine point to billions of dollars being "given" to Ukraine where there is supposedly no accountability and where much of it flows back into the hands of - pick your favorite political enemy. I can't speak for every dollar, but I can assure you that the vast majority or weapons provided have been through Presidential draw-down authority. No "money" changes hands outside the internal US budgetary process.

As a former commanding general of US Army Security Assistance Command, I have a fairly good understanding how the process actually works. The executive branch goes to congress to request an aid package for X amount of dollars. Let's say the package contains the cost of 50 M777 howitzers, 6 HIMARS launchers, 100K 155mm howitzer rounds and 1200 GMLRS rockets. The howitzers and HIMARS are sitting in storage after being retired from the Marine Corps. A value is assigned to them based upon their sale value in a military assistance sale to an ally who might be purchasing them (it is a bit more complex but that is the gist of it). There will also be a training package cost associated with providing the howitzers. That total value is then deducted from the allocation.

The ammunition is also in storage. All rounds have shelf-life - rockets considerably less than standard artillery rounds. We will provide them the oldest stocks first. Again, a value will be assigned based on the remaining shelf life. In many cases, particularly older howitzer rounds, the provision of these rounds to Ukraine may actually save DOD money by not requiring de-mill of older munitions. Again, no one gives Ukraine a dollar to go buy those weapons or munitions.

If it is a unique product which is being provided to Ukraine directly by the contractor, then DOD will cut the contract using the allocation as the accountability line. The Switchblade and Phoenix Ghost loitering munitions have been acquired in this manner. Again, no one hands Ukraine a wad of cash to buy weapons.

There are other allocations provided for humanitarian relief, medical support, intell, etc. Many of those are managed by State or CIA. I can not speak to the accountability of those efforts other than to say both the department and Central Intelligence are under fairly strict congressional oversight.

Your question about whether the Ukrainian people deserve our help is, to me at least, not the right one. I really don't care what kind of government they have. I believe they are making a genuine effort to integrate their society and future with Western Europe. I believe that is laudatory. Others here claim they are no different than Russians and are not worthy of our support. I think both assumptions miss the point. In my mind, the issue is Russian Imperial designs on Central Europe and economic designs on Western Europe. Regardless of Ukraine's adherence to the principals and spirit of Jeffersonian democracy, Russian aggression must be stopped now in Ukraine before my grandchild is facing a far more powerful Russia over the next decades. And I absolutely believe the parallels to Hitler, Chamberlain, Germany, and Czechoslovakia in 1938 are blinding in their clarity.

The last question is the sort of conspiratorial nonsense one reads on sites like InfoWars and in the comments section on Breitbart. DOD's best public estimate is that Russia has lost 150,000 casualties (with over 50,000 KIA), two thirds of their modernized armor force, the flagship of the Black Sea Fleet, and a quarter of its most modern attack helicopters and ground attack aircraft. The damage to their economy will be generational. They have lost them because a nation a third their size has decided to sacrifice a generation of its own to preserve its independence and future. The conspiracy nuts seem to miss all that in their machinations.

Lastly, read these money pipeline cartoons and memes with a critical eye. Ukraine like the US has financial relationships with all sorts of international institutions. If they are American institutions they give political contributions to both parties. The same meme could be aimed at every other developed nation on the planet.

The Republican leadership largely gets the importance of stopping Russian ambitions. While the MTG's of the world scream for ending funding, the leadership is calling for an audit process of aid to Ukraine. If it gives more voters confidence, I think that is great idea. Most of it will simply be a review of department budgeting an allocation assumptions. I suspect such oversight would be most useful in tracking humanitarian allocations. In either case, it provides our party's leadership some political cover to continue to do the right thing.

But let me address the 800lb gorilla issue directly. I believe a big problem is Trump. Like most things with this self-indulgent politician, I believe his opposition to helping Ukraine has almost nothing to do with our national interests and everything to do with his personal animus toward Zelensky who in his view should have done more to expose Biden family involvement in Ukraine. Needless to say, no national leader with any sense is going to involve himself in another country's internal political affairs, particularly when he is faced with an existential threat for which he desperately hopes for US/NATO support regardless of which party is in control. All things considered, judging by the bipartisan support he has received, I think Zelensky was wise.

 

[John Wasmuth]

It’s much like
“Have you found any cheating or suspicious activity in the elections”?
“Well there has been some but not wide spread so we won’t concern ourselves with it”.
“But you have found voter fraud”?
“Well yes but not anything to worry about”.
“So voter fraud is ok if it’s just a little”?
“It’s nothing to be concerned about”.

every single penny that the US government has belongs to the tax payer. Any and all military equipment belongs to the American tax payer. Every piece of equipment down to the last bullet must be accounted for. There is equipment being sold on the black market in Ukraine that was given to the Ukrainian people by the American Tax Payer…….. the American Tax Payer has a right to know where their property is going…….. but it’s ok if it’s just a little…..,

 

[steve white]

@ActionBob has given you an accurate response to your question. The critics of supporting Ukraine point to billions of dollars being "given" to Ukraine where there is supposedly no accountability and where much of it flows back into the hands of - pick your favorite political enemy. I can't speak for every dollar, but I can assure you that the vast majority or weapons provided have been through Presidential draw-down authority. No "money" changes hands outside the internal US budgetary process.

As a former commanding general of US Army Security Assistance Command, I have a fairly good understanding how the process actually works. The executive branch goes to congress to request an aid package for X amount of dollars. Let's say the package contains the cost of 50 M777 howitzers, 6 HIMARS launchers, 100K 155mm howitzer rounds and 1200 GMLRS rockets. The howitzers and HIMARS are sitting in storage after being retired from the Marine Corps. A value is assigned to them based upon their sale value in a military assistance sale to an ally who might be purchasing them (it is a bit more complex but that is the gist of it). There will also be a training package cost associated with providing the howitzers. That total value is then deducted from the allocation.

The ammunition is also in storage. All rounds have shelf-life - rockets considerably less than standard artillery rounds. We will provide them the oldest stocks first. Again, a value will be assigned based on the remaining shelf life. In many cases, particularly older howitzer rounds, the provision of these rounds to Ukraine may actually save DOD money by not requiring de-mill of older munitions. Again, no one gives Ukraine a dollar to go buy those weapons or munitions.

If it is a unique product which is being provided to Ukraine directly by the contractor, then DOD will cut the contract using the allocation as the accountability line. The Switchblade and Phoenix Ghost loitering munitions have been acquired in this manner. Again, no one hands Ukraine a wad of cash to buy weapons.

There are other allocations provided for humanitarian relief, medical support, intell, etc. Many of those are managed by State or CIA. I can not speak to the accountability of those efforts other than to say both the department and Central Intelligence are under fairly strict congressional oversight.

Your question about whether the Ukrainian people deserve our help is, to me at least, not the right one. I really don't care what kind of government they have. I believe they are making a genuine effort to integrate their society and future with Western Europe. I believe that is laudatory. Others here claim they are no different than Russians and are not worthy of our support. I think both assumptions miss the point. In my mind, the issue is Russian Imperial designs on Central Europe and economic designs on Western Europe. Regardless of Ukraine's adherence to the principals and spirit of Jeffersonian democracy, Russian aggression must be stopped now in Ukraine before my grandchild is facing a far more powerful Russia over the next decades. And I absolutely believe the parallels to Hitler, Chamberlain, Germany, and Czechoslovakia in 1938 are blinding in their clarity.

The last question is the sort of conspiratorial nonsense one reads on sites like InfoWars and in the comments section on Breitbart. DOD's best public estimate is that Russia has lost 150,000 casualties (with over 50,000 KIA), two thirds of their modernized armor force, the flagship of the Black Sea Fleet, and a quarter of its most modern attack helicopters and ground attack aircraft. The damage to their economy will be generational. They have lost them because a nation a third their size has decided to sacrifice a generation of its own to preserve its independence and future. The conspiracy nuts seem to miss all that in their machinations.

Lastly, read these money pipeline cartoons and memes with a critical eye. Ukraine like the US has financial relationships with all sorts of international institutions. If they are American institutions they give political contributions to both parties. The same meme could be aimed at every other developed nation on the planet.

The Republican leadership largely gets the importance of stopping Russian ambitions. While the MTG's of the world scream for ending funding, the leadership is calling for an audit process of aid to Ukraine. If it gives more voters confidence, I think that is great idea. Most of it will simply be a review of department budgeting an allocation assumptions. I suspect such oversight would be most useful in tracking humanitarian allocations. In either case, it provides our party's leadership some political cover to continue to do the right thing.

But let me address the 800lb gorilla issue directly. I believe a big problem is Trump. Like most things with this self-indulgent politician, I believe his opposition to helping Ukraine has almost nothing to do with our national interests and everything to do with his personal animus toward Zelensky who in his view should have done more to expose Biden family involvement in Ukraine. Needless to say, no national leader with any sense is going to involve himself in another country's internal political affairs, particularly when he is faced with an existential threat for which he desperately hopes for US/NATO support regardless of which party is in control. All things considered, judging by the bipartisan support he has received, I think Zelensky was wise.

Is de-mil the source of all those primers/powders that flooded the markets for a while?

 

[Wheels]

Thank You for responding


That has been said before in the 1930’s and i feel the cost that was payed in the 1940’s was extreme. Did we need to be sending large amounts of financial aid to Ukraine two years ago?(I picked that time because it was clearly before Putin invaded back in February) No, one would have had a hard time making that point to me. However, now I believe we need to be pushing large amounts of military aid to Ukraine. This does not include U.S. soldiers. The Ukrainian soldiers seem to be doing just fine. Especially, when they have enough ammunition to use. Putin needs to be stopped. The other people in the world who think like Putin need to see that the world stands up to this activity and opposes it. I believe that paying this cost now it will prevent a much greater cost in the future.

The link below provides a much more learned and eloquent discussion of American Isolationism in the 1930’s. I do believe we have to be careful of letting the pendulum swing to far either direction.

American Isolationism | History of Western Civilization II

courses.lumenlearning.com

You asked a question regarding my meme post and I responded. I was not really pushing to get into a significant discussion since I have made my thoughts known regarding the Ukraine situation on this thread a few times before. While I am not a history teacher, I have studied quite a bit of history, including 19th and 20th century western civ., including American isolationism and Nevil Chamberlain.

Many people have made comparisons between 1939 Germany and 2022 Russia. Personally I think that is a poor comparison. 2022 Russia is a beat up old drunk. Russia is loosing population with a low birthrate for multiple decades. Russia is sick of their leaders and an economic system that has left them no better than a third world country. Russia has no charismatic leader and there is no "high testosterone" in Russia today. 1939 Germany was tied in knots by the Treaty of Versailles. Germany was a multitude of young people due to a high birthrate, pissed off at the Weimar Republic, pissed off at a Europe they had to pay compensation to, pissed off at an economic system of hyperinflation, who found common ground in a charismatic nationalistic leader who was full of confidence directing them to a better life.

A better comparison is 1939 Russia and 2022 Russia and that's not even a great comparison. Other than nuclear weapons, the Russia of 1939 would kick the butts of Russia today. Ukraine with weapons is holding Russia to a stalemate.

With the proposed $37 billion of additional funding, America by itself will have funded more money to Ukraine in 2022 than the entire Russian military budget for 2021. (This was the first article that popped up https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-ukraine-military-aid-russia-defense-budget-1756393 )

Europe's economy is about the size of America's yet America has given or committed more than twice, maybe three times as much to Ukraine as all of Europe. America is doing way more than it's share.

Hunter Biden made seven figures out of Burisma. Burisma's illegal dealings were being investigated by the Attorney General of Ukraine. Joe Biden threatened to withhold $1B of aid to Ukraine unless the Attorney General was fired. Will guess what, he was fired. Makes one wonder how much kickback there is in $100B?

America is mortgaging it's children's and grandchildren's future so a bunch of elites can get rich. As George Carlin said, It's a big club and we're not in it.

 

[Jfet]

You asked a question regarding my meme post and I responded. I was not really pushing to get into a significant discussion since I have made my thoughts known regarding the Ukraine situation on this thread a few times before. While I am not a history teacher, I have studied quite a bit of history, including 19th and 20th century western civ., including American isolationism and Nevil Chamberlain.

Many people have made comparisons between 1939 Germany and 2022 Russia. Personally I think that is a poor comparison. 2022 Russia is a beat up old drunk. Russia is loosing population with a low birthrate for multiple decades. Russia is sick of their leaders and an economic system that has left them no better than a third world country. Russia has no charismatic leader and there is no "high testosterone" in Russia today. 1939 Germany was tied in knots by the Treaty of Versailles. Germany was a multitude of young people due to a high birthrate, pissed off at the Weimar Republic, pissed off at a Europe they had to pay compensation to, pissed off at an economic system of hyperinflation, who found common ground in a charismatic nationalistic leader who was full of confidence directing them to a better life.

A better comparison is 1939 Russia and 2022 Russia and that's not even a great comparison. Other than nuclear weapons, the Russia of 1939 would kick the butts of Russia today. Ukraine with weapons is holding Russia to a stalemate.

With the proposed $37 billion of additional funding, America by itself will have funded more money to Ukraine in 2022 than the entire Russian military budget for 2021. (This was the first article that popped up https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-ukraine-military-aid-russia-defense-budget-1756393 )

Europe's economy is about the size of America's yet America has given or committed more than twice, maybe three times as much to Ukraine as all of Europe. America is doing way more than it's share.

Hunter Biden made seven figures out of Burisma. Burisma's illegal dealings were being investigated by the Attorney General of Ukraine. Joe Biden threatened to withhold $1B of aid to Ukraine unless the Attorney General was fired. Will guess what, he was fired. Makes one wonder how much kickback there is in $100B?

America is mortgaging it's children's and grandchildren's future so a bunch of elites can get rich. As George Carlin said, It's a big club and we're not in it.

Thanks for your input. It is good to hear the different points of view and you have valid points and concerns.