Politics

[Wheels]

 

[jpr9954]

 

[Wheels]

Let's set aside the last twenty years in the Middle East. I think we are in very nearly complete agreement.

Our differences, I think, are in our perceptions of this conflict. This war, investment, whatever we want to term it is only secondarily about helping Europe and one hundred percent about our own national interests - the exact same calculous that created the Marshal Plan and then NATO itself. Do the Europeans use that to their advantage? Certainly since 1990 or so - particularly Germany. None of which changes our own national interests at all.

The problem is we can't set aside the past twenty years. We spent $7 trillion. That's over $20,000 for every American. We are suffering inflation now due to these wars. The same inflation that is helping drive us into a recession. If Afghanistan wasn't already living in the stone age, they could have, and should have been blown back to the stone age for $200-$400B max. America should have left after two years, let the Taliban set back up and if the Taliban allow another Bin Laden we go right back in and destroy it again. We suck at nation building but that is what we always want to do. There is way to much money in USAID and the war machine to allow wars to stop.

Germany is dealing with their short sightedness now. So is Europe. Let them fund Ukraine. If we sign on to help then fine, but let this be primarily Europe's problem. Not ours.

How many years does America fund Ukraine. This will become a transfer of American taxpayer wealth to Ukraine with a significant portion siphoned off for the connected of the world. These type of wars will go on until America is bankrupt.

 

[Ray B]

These type of wars will go on until America is bankrupt.

By many measures America is already bankrupt but it keeps one step ahead of creditors by printing enough money to pay the interest.

 

[Red Leg]

The problem is we can't set aside the past twenty years. We spent $7 trillion. That's over $20,000 for every American. We are suffering inflation now due to these wars. The same inflation that is helping drive us into a recession. If Afghanistan wasn't already living in the stone age, they could have, and should have been blown back to the stone age for $200-$400B max. America should have left after two years, let the Taliban set back up and if the Taliban allow another Bin Laden we go right back in and destroy it again. We suck at nation building but that is what we always want to do. There is way to much money in USAID and the war machine to allow wars to stop.

Germany is dealing with their short sightedness now. So is Europe. Let them fund Ukraine. If we sign on to help then fine, but let this be primarily Europe's problem. Not ours.

How many years does America fund Ukraine. This will become a transfer of American taxpayer wealth to Ukraine with a significant portion siphoned off for the connected of the world. These type of wars will go on until America is bankrupt.

We obviously can't get past what I believe is one absolute fact - one supported by the weight of an enormous historical precedent of blood and treasure. This is in reality far more our problem than Europe's. We have not had one of "these types of wars" since the last century. And I am absolutely convinced we forget that at our and our children's great cost.

 

[Wheels]

 

[marksman]

 

[marksman]

 

[marksman]

 

[meigsbucks]

She is spot on.

 

[ActionBob]

Donald Trump was sitting in his office when his telephone rang.
"Howzit, Donald!" a voice in broken English said. "This is Koos Vannermerwe here from the Royal Hotel Bar in Ventersdorp, South Africa .
I am ringing to inform you that we are officially declaring war on you, boet!"
"Well, Koos," Trump replied, "This is indeed important news! How big is your army?"
"Right now," said Koos, after a moment's calculation, "there is myself, my cousin Jan, my next-door neighbour Lang Hannes, and the entire darts team from the pub. That makes eight of us!"
Trump paused. "I must tell you, Koos, that I have one million men in my army waiting to move on my command."
"Blikkiesfontein!" said Koos. "I'll have to ring you back!"
Sure enough, the next day, Koos called again."Donald, my china, the war is still on! We have managed to acquire some infantry equipment!"
"And what equipment would that be, Koos?" Trump asked.
"Well, we have four Hilux double-cabs, two kombis, an old Case bulldozer, and Dronk Gert's John Deere tractor".
Trump sighed. "I must tell you, Koos, that I have 16,000 tanks and 14,000 armoured personnel carriers. Also, I've increased my army to 1,5 million since we last spoke."
"Liewe erdvark!" said Koos. "I'll have to get back to you..."
Sure enough, Koos rang again the next day. "Donald, ou swaer, the war is still on! We have managed to get ourselves airborne! We've modified Doepie's ultra-light with a couple of shotguns in the cockpit, and four okes from the Virginia Hengelklub have joined us as well!"
Trump was silent for a minute and then cleared his throat. "I must tell you, Koos, I have 10,000 bombers and 20,000 fighter planes. My military complex is surrounded by laser-guided, surface-to-air missile sites. And since we last spoke, I've increased my army to TWO MILLION!"
"Slaat my dood!", said Koos, "I'll have to ring you back."
Sure enough, Koos called again the next day. "Jis, jis, jis, ou Donald! I am sorry to tell you that we've had to call off the war."
"I'm sorry to hear that," said Trump. "Why the sudden change of heart?"
"Well," said Koos, "we've all had a long chat over some klippies and coke, and decided ..... there's no way we can feed two million prisoners of war!"

View attachment 474555

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[Wheels]

We obviously can't get past what I believe is one absolute fact - one supported by the weight of an enormous historical precedent of blood and treasure. This is in reality far more our problem than Europe's. We have not had one of "these types of wars" since the last century. And I am absolutely convinced we forget that at our and our children's great cost.

There will always be wars and rumors of wars. America feels the need to be in every war. Even going out of it's way to start wars.

There is something to be said of fighting a war for a just cause. One area where you and I differ is that it seems you feel Russia/Ukraine is a just war. From my point of view, both countries are incredibly corrupt and authoritarian and will continue to be corrupt and authoritarian after this war. America will throw money at the problem for countless years just so corrupt Ukrainians can create fiefdoms and get incredibly rich off of USA taxpayers. As I have said before, I feel for the ordinary Ukrainian but not for the political establishment and powerful of Ukraine.

Could this be the war that builds to be WWIII. Yes it might. But so are the other wars. Who would have thought Gavrilo Princip could start a world war. Does America continue to be involved in every conflict until the country is bankrupt just to prevent a major conflict by participating in the conflict.

 

[Ray B]

Who would have thought Gavrilo Princip could start a world war.

Who would have thought that Neville Chamberlain would be giving the go ahead to aggression that led to WWII?

 

[Red Leg]

There will always be wars and rumors of wars. America feels the need to be in every war. Even going out of it's way to start wars.

There is something to be said of fighting a war for a just cause. One area where you and I differ is that it seems you feel Russia/Ukraine is a just war. From my point of view, both countries are incredibly corrupt and authoritarian and will continue to be corrupt and authoritarian after this war. America will throw money at the problem for countless years just so corrupt Ukrainians can create fiefdoms and get incredibly rich off of USA taxpayers. As I have said before, I feel for the ordinary Ukrainian but not for the political establishment and powerful of Ukraine.

Could this be the war that builds to be WWIII. Yes it might. But so are the other wars. Who would have thought Gavrilo Princip could start a world war. Does America continue to be involved in every conflict until the country is bankrupt just to prevent a major conflict by participating in the conflict.

I have read the Mathew as well.

There are no "just" wars - only wars of greater or lesser national interest. This war, being fought by Ukraine, is I believe, very much in our national interest. If Ukraine succeeds, something I am not sure the current administration fully understands, a major threat to the future security of our country will be, at the very least, hamstrung for more than a generation. Fail in that, and our children will face powerful threats on two fronts. That failure will, I am convinced, cost them many more billions and potentially rivers of blood.

 

[Wheels]

I have read the Mathew as well.

There are no "just" wars - only wars of greater or lesser national interest. This war, being fought by Ukraine, is I believe, very much in our national interest. If Ukraine succeeds, something I am not sure the current administration fully understands, a major threat to the future security of our country will be, at the very least, hamstrung for more than a generation. Fail in that, and our children will face powerful threats on two fronts. That failure will, I am convinced, cost them many more billions and potentially rivers of blood.

That could very well be true.

In the mean time we are making corrupt people in a corrupt country rich. As to my original post, let Europe spend their money on this. America can help out but let Europe be the primary driver.

Wonder who will be the next American aircraft crew shot down by a stinger sold on the black market. https://nypost.com/2014/06/08/how-the-taliban-got-their-hands-on-modern-us-missiles/

__________________________________________________________________________________________

ZeroHedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

The lack of oversight for billions of dollars in US weapons pumped into Ukraine has concerned the Pentagon. They're worried about anti-tank missiles and explosive drones ending up in the "wrong hands."

A new investigation allegedly found some of these weapons are being sold on the dark web.

The journalist said one darknet marketplace had a Phoenix Ghost loitering munition listed for $4,000.

One intelligence source told CNN:

"We have fidelity for a short time, but when it enters the fog of war, we have almost zero. It drops into a big black hole, and you have almost no sense of it after a short time."

"The weapons from this war are still being used by criminal groups today," Europol Director Catherine De Bolle told the German newspaper Welt am Sonntag in June.

Last Thursday, the Pentagon's Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) issued a statement urging US military leaders to send weapons inspectors into the war-torn country to monitor where the billions of dollars in arms are being handed out.

RT's investigation sheds important light on the Pentagon's worst fears of high-tech weapons ending up in the wrong hands and some of the weapons for sale on the darknet. There may never be oversight and accountability of the weapons on the ground because, as the NYTimes recently said, the CIA has had a presence on the battlefield since the start of the invasion. When it comes to the CIA's covert arms programs, they usually like to keep where the weapons are being sent a secret.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Western arms supplied to Ukraine offered on darknet – RT investigation

Western weapons supplied to Kiev amid the conflict with Russia are being actively sold on the dark web, RT has learned

www.rt.com

Last month, the head of Interpol Jürgen Stock warned that the conflict in Ukraine will result in numerous weapons appearing on the black market.

“Criminal groups try to exploit these chaotic situations and the availability of weapons, even those used by the military and including heavy weapons. These will be available on the criminal market and will create a challenge,” Stock acknowledged, adding that those arms could be “trafficked not only to neighboring countries, but to other continents.”

________________________________________________________________________________________________

ZeroHedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

As early as April US officials began admitting that once advanced systems like Javelin anti-tank weapons cross into Ukraine they have no idea where they go from there. There's speculation that some percentage of Western-supplied arms will be resold on the black market, or even make there way to other conflicts outside Ukraine, such as in the Middle East.

“We have fidelity for a short time, but when it enters the fog of war, we have almost zero,” one intelligence source told CNN in a prior report. "It drops into a big black hole, and you have almost no sense of it at all after a short period of time."

____________________________________________________________________________________________

What happens to weapons sent to Ukraine? The US doesn't really know | CNN Politics

The US has few ways to track the substantial supply of anti-tank, anti-aircraft and other weaponry it has sent across the border into Ukraine, sources tell CNN, a blind spot that's due in large part to the lack of US boots on the ground in the country -- and the easy portability of many of the...

www.cnn.com

 

[Ray B]

So the solution would be rather than sending the unchaperoned weapons to unscrupulous turncoats who will sell our weapons to the highest bidder we should send our own troops to make sure they are used in the manner intended?

 

[marksman]

So the solution would be rather than sending the unchaperoned weapons to unscrupulous turncoats who will sell our weapons to the highest bidder we should send our own troops to make sure they are used in the manner intended?

quite a few reports actually report American support in Ukraine already? especially who is training and throwing the orders around
l am sure it would be a very different type of war if America had more involvement than it does already
at the moment it is a proxy war till the last Ukrainian but who knows what the new American woke cavalry will do

 

[Red Leg]

That could very well be true.

In the mean time we are making corrupt people in a corrupt country rich. As to my original post, let Europe spend their money on this. America can help out but let Europe be the primary driver.

Wonder who will be the next American aircraft crew shot down by a stinger sold on the black market. https://nypost.com/2014/06/08/how-the-taliban-got-their-hands-on-modern-us-missiles/

__________________________________________________________________________________________

ZeroHedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

The lack of oversight for billions of dollars in US weapons pumped into Ukraine has concerned the Pentagon. They're worried about anti-tank missiles and explosive drones ending up in the "wrong hands."

A new investigation allegedly found some of these weapons are being sold on the dark web.

The journalist said one darknet marketplace had a Phoenix Ghost loitering munition listed for $4,000.

One intelligence source told CNN:



"The weapons from this war are still being used by criminal groups today," Europol Director Catherine De Bolle told the German newspaper Welt am Sonntag in June.

Last Thursday, the Pentagon's Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) issued a statement urging US military leaders to send weapons inspectors into the war-torn country to monitor where the billions of dollars in arms are being handed out.

RT's investigation sheds important light on the Pentagon's worst fears of high-tech weapons ending up in the wrong hands and some of the weapons for sale on the darknet. There may never be oversight and accountability of the weapons on the ground because, as the NYTimes recently said, the CIA has had a presence on the battlefield since the start of the invasion. When it comes to the CIA's covert arms programs, they usually like to keep where the weapons are being sent a secret.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Western arms supplied to Ukraine offered on darknet – RT investigation

Western weapons supplied to Kiev amid the conflict with Russia are being actively sold on the dark web, RT has learned

www.rt.com

Last month, the head of Interpol Jürgen Stock warned that the conflict in Ukraine will result in numerous weapons appearing on the black market.

“Criminal groups try to exploit these chaotic situations and the availability of weapons, even those used by the military and including heavy weapons. These will be available on the criminal market and will create a challenge,” Stock acknowledged, adding that those arms could be “trafficked not only to neighboring countries, but to other continents.”

________________________________________________________________________________________________

ZeroHedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

As early as April US officials began admitting that once advanced systems like Javelin anti-tank weapons cross into Ukraine they have no idea where they go from there. There's speculation that some percentage of Western-supplied arms will be resold on the black market, or even make there way to other conflicts outside Ukraine, such as in the Middle East.

“We have fidelity for a short time, but when it enters the fog of war, we have almost zero,” one intelligence source told CNN in a prior report. "It drops into a big black hole, and you have almost no sense of it at all after a short period of time."

____________________________________________________________________________________________

What happens to weapons sent to Ukraine? The US doesn't really know | CNN Politics

The US has few ways to track the substantial supply of anti-tank, anti-aircraft and other weaponry it has sent across the border into Ukraine, sources tell CNN, a blind spot that's due in large part to the lack of US boots on the ground in the country -- and the easy portability of many of the...

www.cnn.com

Well yes. It is called warfare - an activity of awful wastage - human and equipment. I have no doubt all sorts of weapons will find their way to all sorts of places. How could they not? The Russian dominated Telegraph network has displayed numerous photos of captured NATO equipment - NLAWS and Javelins are particular prizes. The Phoenix Ghost claim is a little amusing since it isn’t yet in full rate production. But to remind, with on hand accountability, the US has left a swath of lost, stolen, and abandoned equipment across the Middle East for two decades. Afghanistan provided particulary bad actors with a treasure trove of materiel In depot condition - To include command detonated mines and ATGMs.

So to be precise, I do not care. I hope no-one fires a Javelin at a European train (it makes for a really cumbersome instrument of terror). I hope Ukraine emerges from this a viable, largely democratic member of the European community. I frankly think they will. Like other transitioning states, I have no doubt they will struggle with a Russian cultural legacy. But whatever Ukraine’s independent destiny, that independence will be far more in our national interest than conceding its future to enrich a resurgent Russian Empire.

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

A good read

It’s up to us to restore America’s national pride and confidence

Pride should derive from a recognition that our experiment in freedom and democracy always was and remains a work in progress.

thehill.com

 

[marksman]