Politics

Another view, which the press has written off as right wing conspiracy and another Russian shill.

 
Along Lara Logan's comments, I have read that the initial response of the Ukraines to the German army in 1939-40 was to join with them in running the USSR out of Ukraine. What changed the Ukraine attitude was when the German's started killing the Ukraine citizens as part of the make room for Germans plan. If true, that change likely changed the outcome of at least the Eastern Front.
 
@Ray B
Speaking strictly of world war 2.
SS Divison Galizia (Ukranian) was formed as late as 1943, fought on eastern front against soviets, retereated with germans, and kept fighitng till end, they surrenderd in Graz, Austria 1945 .

However, it is also true that Kiev and Odessa are 2 of 12 Soviet war heroe cities.

But what really changed the outcome of ww2, was the industry production and resources (plus true willingness to fight of russian people):
Germans really lost the war when soviet war industry production became higher then theirs, when soviets at one point produced more planes per month, then germany, more tanks than germany per month, more ammunition per month then germany, more guns per month then germany, etc.
By the end of 1942, entire europe was occupied, western front was not yet esatblished and this means that entire industry of europe was working for german war effort. (gun factories, steel factories, oil production, food production, mining, etc), and as the western front was not yet open, all germany controlled european resources and manpower were focused on eastern front. So, this was not a small endevour.

It was gigantic effort on both sides, that culminated in biggest battles in History. Stallingrad, Kursk, Leningrad, Moscow, and Berlin at the end.
It was the clash of extreme resources, where the germans crashed (stalingrad is considered as breaking point, on eastern front, like Midway at pacific war theater)
Stalingrad at january 1942. started as the Geman retreat (with destruction of 6. army), but the Kursk offesnive was planned and germany has trown everything they had there, as did the Soviets. Kursk is the biggest motorised tank battle ever.

War on the west, was first won at Atlantic. But in a similar way, industry:
Germany lost that war at Atlantic, when United states industry started producing more ships, then what the Gemran subs could sink. There was also other successes that speeded up the war in the west: breaking enigma code, and technical advancements on radar technology on land, air, and sea. (for war on atlantic radar technology on ships, and on planes allowed detections of surfaced german subs at night)
This enabled allies to first cross the Atlantic, with acceptable losses on their side and accumulate resources, men and materiel on British island for European invasion in 1944.
 
I like Lara Logan but I think her commentary is largely wrong on the primary issue and bordering on batshit crazy on some of the second. The third is valid to some extent.

The notion that anyone thinks the Russian campaign is going to plan at this point knows absolutely nothing about war - I don't care how much conflict they may have witnessed (as opposed to planned and executed). Putin is looking more desperate daily (pep rallies and Syrian "volunteers" - seriously?) No real military commentator still believes that nonsense. Even Russian propagandist Douglas Macgregor has moved on to other subjects - and sounding a bit like Laura in justifying Putin's actions.

There are indeed some bad elements in the Ukrainian military - the contested areas in the east look much like some of the ugly corners of the Balkans where hate runs very deep. As @Ray B correctly notes, many Ukrainians welcomed the arrival of the German Army in 1941. Had the Germans not been prisoners of their own sick ideology, they could have raised another fifteen divisions from a new Ukrainian Republic recognized by the Reich and its Hungarian and Romanian allies. Instead, and with Hitler's blessing, Himmler turned the Einstazgruppen loose on Poland and the Ukraine, murdering tens of thousands. Thousands more were disposed of their property to make room for German colonists. And yet, the hatred of the Russ runs far and deep through Central Europe. There is witticism attributed to the Poles that could also apply to the Ukrainians. A Polish general was asked who would he fight first if again attacked by Germany and Russia. His answer was "Germany of course - business before pleasure."

Some Ukrainians did volunteer for the Waffen SS, forming, as @mark-hunter notes, the Galizia Division (a meaningfully different group than the Allgemeine SS who were responsible for the concentration and death camps). The Azov "Battalion" undoubtedly does claim far too much of the Nazi heritage. However, it is absolutely wrong to paint the entire Ukrainian Army and culture with that brush.

The Russian puppet, Yulia Tymoshenko, was ousted in an election in 2010. The winner, Viktor Yanukovych, was indeed initially seen as a preferable leader to the emerging state by every Western democracy. However, likely under pressure or inducement from Moscow, he too began forging closer relations with Russia and abandoned a popular plan to join the EU economically. Civil disobedience emerged in 2014 culminating with clashes with the government's special police force and eventual resignation of Yanukovych.

I have no doubt every major Western democracy was delighted to see Putin's latest puppet gone, and I have no doubt MI6 and/or CIA provided some guidance to the resistance. But it is equally wrong not to credit the will of the vast majority of the Ukrainian people. One should also not forget that Putin used the "Dignity Revolution" as an excuse to invade Crimea and to pour arms and advisors into Luhans'k and Donets'k.

Subsequent elections have been deemed fair by international observers.

And I could care less how traumatized Putin may have been by the siege of Leningrad (St. Petersburg), that does not give him the political right to behave like a 21st century Atilla.
 

I find this a far more rational (and briefer) assessment of Putin's actions than Lara Logan's. It also gives proper and measured credit to Ukraine's progress as a democratic society.
 
Yep, that is the Western party line... from a Western perspective... with the Western comfortable knowledge that Germany and France were continuing to veto the expansion of NATO to Ukraine anyway... and with the Western read (or is "ignorance" a better word in view of Boris' tirade?) of Slavs' history... not to mention Western condescendence for any other world view...

Boris gets a laugh from his audience brushing away, and ridiculing, everything that the West does not approve off in Putin's presumed motivations, and focuses only on the West-aggrandizing part of the answer... Fine...

Interestingly, Kremlinologists have a much more nuanced view... and many in the world have also a much more nuanced view of the West "do as we say but not as we do" foreign policy (e.g. Kosovo); perceived threats (e.g. weapons of mass destruction in Iraq); or lecturing about regime change (e.g. Iraq, Libya, Syria, Egypt, etc.). If Russia is apparently not entitled to its view, what about China? Oh well...

My own view of Putin's presumed motivations is an "all of the above" view. I am convinced that the Westernization of Ukraine (although with its heavy dose of good old oligarchism, with Zelenskyy himself not entirely disconnected, which we now conveniently pretend to forget) is indeed a long term threat to the Russian model, but I do not presume to dismiss - and ridicule - the Russian NATO perceived threat (after all we HAVE deployed Aegis missiles in Romania), and the historical/cultural argument (after all Ukraine has only been a country for 31 years and was part of Russia for centuries, formally since the 1654 Pereyaslav Agreement when the Cossacks asked the Russian Tsar to officially incorporate Ukraine in Russia to protect it from Poland).

Heck! if we recognize the right of people to self-determination, we might also recognize as well the right of people to think differently. But I gladly admit that it is more comfortable to call them stupid or crazy...

But, hey, maybe this coin has only one side...

Anyway, this is not intended to start another lengthy debate. We have different views on this. That's OK...
 
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“Nuts!”
Did the CO of the 101st really just say "nuts"? That's harder to swallow than a Vaseline sandwich. I would expect a little more color from a guy like that. :D
 
Did the CO of the 101st really just say "nuts"? That's harder to swallow than a Vaseline sandwich. I would expect a little more color from a guy like that. :D
It was actually the ADC/Division artillery commander, BG Anthony McAulife, who commanded the division during the battle. MG Maxwell Taylor was at a conference in Washington. As many Army veterans know, artilleryman always bring a certain refined grace to what would otherwise be a merely vulgar affair.
 
The reply was typed up, centered on a full sheet of paper. It read:

"December 22, 1944

To the German Commander,

N U T S !

The American Commander"



The story of the NUTS! reply​

By Kenneth J. McAuliffe, Jr.December 8, 2013

German surrender ultimatum Dec. 22, 19441 / 3SHOW CAPTION +German propaganda leaflet fired into Bastogne2 / 3SHOW CAPTION +Brig. Gen. Anthony McAuliffe and his staff gathered for Christmas dinner Dec. 25th, 1944.3 / 3SHOW CAPTION +
On December 22, 1944, at about 11:30 in the morning, a group of four German soldiers, waving two white flags, approached the American lines using the Arlon Road from the direction of Remoifosse, south of Bastogne. The group consisted of two officers and two enlisted men. The senior officer was a Major Wagner of the 47th Panzer Corps. The junior officer, Lt. Hellmuth Henke of the Panzer Lehr Operations Section, was carrying a briefcase under his arm. The two enlisted men had been selected from the 901st Panzer Grenadier Regiment.

The Americans defending in that location were members of F Company of the 327th Glider Infantry Regiment, 101st Airborne Division. The Germans walked past a bazooka team in a foxhole in front of the Kessler farm and stopped in front of the foxhole of PFC Leo Palma, a B.A.R. gunner. Palma described the officers as wearing long overcoats and shiny black boots. Lieutenant Henke, who spoke English said, "I want to see the commanding officer of this section." Palma was at a loss for words, but Staff Sergeant Carl E. Dickinson who had been manning a position nearby walked out to the road and called the group over to him. The Germans explained that they had a written message to be presented to the American Commander in Bastogne.

Henke said they would consent to being blindfolded and taken to the American Commanding Officer. In fact, they had brought blindfolds with them. Henke blindfolded Wagner and Dickinson blindfolded Henke. As the blindfolds were being applied, Dickinson was joined by PFC Ernest Premetz, a German-speaking medic of his platoon who offered to serve as an interpreter. However no interpreter was needed.

Dickinson and Premetz left the two German enlisted men there and took the two German officers to the Kessler farmhouse. Tech. Sgt. Oswald Y. Butler, Acting Platoon Leader of the 1st Platoon, and Lt. Leslie E. Smith, Platoon Leader of the Weapons Platoon, told them to take the blindfolded officers to the F Company Command Post. They took the two German officers on a roundabout route to the Command Post of F Company, 327th GIR, which was a large foxhole located in a wooded area about a quarter mile away. Shortly after arriving at the command post, they were joined by Capt. James F. Adams, the F Company Commander, who had been at a forward observation post when he was notified of the arrival of the Germans.

When Adams arrived, 1st Sgt. Constantine A. Pappas informed him that the German major had already presented a written message. The F Company Executive Officer, Lt. William J. Herzke, was on the phone, reading the message to their Battalion Command Post in Marvie. The 2nd Battalion Command Post then notified the 327th Regimental Headquarters in Bastogne. Col. Bud Harper, the 327th Regimental Commander, was not there; he was out inspecting his unit's positions. The senior officer present was the Regimental Operations Officer, Major Alvin Jones. Maj. Jones notified the Division Headquarters in Bastogne and asked for instructions. He was told to retrieve the message and bring it to the Division Headquarters. He drove to the F Company Command Post and was given the message. The two blindfolded officers were kept in the woods adjacent to the foxhole Command Post.

Upon receiving Maj. Jones' phone call at Division Headquarters, the Acting Chief of Staff, Lt. Col. Ned Moore entered Brig. Gen. Anthony C. McAuliffe's sleeping quarters adjacent to the communications center. Moore wakened McAulliffe and told him, "The Germans have sent some people forward to take our surrender." Moore recalled that Brig. Gen. McAuliffe, still half asleep, said "Nuts!" and started to climb out of his sleeping bag.

Moore then went back out into the Communications Center where he briefed the rest of the Division staff of the on-going situation, including telling them of McAulliffe's remark of "Nuts!"

When Maj. Jones arrived with the message, the staff looked at it before taking it in to McAulliffe.

The German surrender demand was typewritten on two sheets. One was in English, the other in German. They had been typed on an English typewriter as indicated by the fact that the diacritical marks required on the German copy had been entered by hand.

This is the English version of the message:

"December 22nd 1944

To the U.S.A. Commander of the encircled town of Bastogne.

The fortune of war is changing. This time the U.S.A.

forces in and near Bastogne have been encircled by strong

German armored units. More German armored units have crossed

the river Ourthe near Ortheuville, have taken Marche and

reached St. Hubert by passing through Hompre-Sibret-Tillet.

Libramont is in German hands.

There is only one possibility to save the encircled

U.S.A troops from total annihilation: that is the honorable

surrender of the encircled town. In order to think it over

a term of two hours will be granted beginning with the

presentation of this note.

If this proposal should be rejected one German

Artillery Corps and six heavy A. A. Battalions are ready

to annihilate the U.S.A. troops in and near Bastogne. The

order for firing will be given immediately after this two

hours' term.

All the serious civilian losses caused by this

artillery fire would not correspond with the wellknown

American humanity.

The German Commander."

The Division Operations Officer, Lt. Col. Harry Kinnard recalled that McAulliffe initially asked, "They want to surrender?" Moore told him, "No sir, they want us to surrender." McAulliffe arose and erupted in anger, which shocked those looking on. He took the paper, looked at it, said "Us surrender, aw nuts!" and dropped it on the floor. Maj. Jones was dismissed. McAulliffe then left the Headquarters to go congratulate a unit on the Western perimeter that had successfully taken out a German road block earlier that morning.

When Jones left the Headquarters, he went back to the F Company Command Post and spoke with the two German officers. When he returned to his Regimental Headquarters, he phoned the division headquarters.

Upon returning to the division headquarters, McAulliffe was informed that Jones had phoned to say that the two German officers were still waiting at the F Company Command Post. Since they brought a formal demand they felt they were entitled to a formal reply and they were to return to the German lines two hours after delivering their message.

McAulliffe asked that Col. Harper be summoned to the Division Headquarters. Harper, who was still inspecting his units' positions, was contacted by radio.

When Harper arrived at the Headquarters, he was asked to wait outside of the closed door to McAulliffe's quarters. Inside, in the presence of his staff, McAulliffe wondered aloud, "Well, I don't know what to tell them." At that point, Kinnard said, "What you said initially would be hard to beat." McAulliffe asked "What do you mean?" Kinnard, said, "Sir, you said nuts." All members of the staff enthusiastically agreed, so McAulliffe wrote it down on a message pad and said, "Have it typed up."

The reply was typed up, centered on a full sheet of paper. It read:

"December 22, 1944

To the German Commander,

N U T S !

The American Commander"

McAulliffe dismissed the staff and asked that Harper come in. McAulliffe initially toyed with him by having him stand in front of Higgins and himself. McAulliffe showed him the surrender demand and asked if he had already seen it. Harper said no. McAulliffe asked him to read it and suggest how it should be answered. Harper was surprised by the request and quickly tried to draft a reply in his head. At that moment, a clerk-typist entered the room and handed McAulliffe a sheet of paper. He looked at it and then showed Harper the typed "NUTS" reply, asking him if he thought that was a proper reply. Harper read it and started laughing. McAulliffe asked Harper to personally deliver the reply to the Germans, cautioning him not to go into the German lines.

Harper took the reply and drove to the F Company Command Post. Harper told Henke that he had the American Commander's reply. Henke asked if it was written or verbal. Harper answered it was written and he put it in the hand of the blindfolded German Major. Henke asked about the contents of the reply because if it was affirmative, they were authorized to negotiate further. Harper said, "The reply consists of a single word, NUTS!" Henke, not understanding, asked, "Is that reply negative or affirmative?" Harper said, "The reply is decidedly not affirmative", adding, "If you continue this foolish attack, your losses will be tremendous." Henke translated for the Major. The Major nodded.

The two blindfolded German officers were then driven, again by a roundabout route, back to their entry point at the Kessler farm. At the farm, the group was rejoined by PFC Premetz. The blindfolds were removed and the Germans opened and looked at the reply. They asked, "What does this mean?" They obviously didn't understand the American slang. Harper and Premetz discussed how to explain it. Harper suggested, "Tell them to take a flying s**t!" Premetz thought about it, then straightened up, faced the Germans and said, "Du kannst zum Teufel gehen." He told Harper it meant "You can go to Hell." Then Harper said, "If you continue to attack, we will kill every goddamn German that tries to break into this city." Henke replied, "We will kill many Americans. This is war." Harper then said, "On your way Bud, and good luck to you." After Henke translated, the major acknowledged. They saluted and the Germans started to walk away. Harper angrily called out to them, "If you don't know what I am talking about, simply go back to your commanding officer and tell him to just plain, 'Go to Hell'." After Henke translated, the major got angry and stormed off. As he passed Palma's position, he threw his blindfold and Palma caught it. Palma wrote that he didn't realize the historical importance of that blindfold. He later used it to clean his B.A.R. and threw it away!

The German party returned to their lines. Capt. Adams recorded the time as 1400 hours.

While watching the Germans leaving, Harper began to regret losing his temper, fearing that his attitude may increase the intensity of the attack on his positions. Fortunately, the threatened artillery barrage never happened. Instead, the German Luftwaffe was added to the attack, bombing the town at night.

According to a narrative written by Hellmuth Henke, when the German officers returned to their vehicle, while they were putting their pistol belts back on, Maj. Wagner removed his pistol from his trouser pocket and placed it in its holster, stating that he wasn't going to get caught without protection.

The two German officers then drove to the 901st Panzer Grenadier Regimental headquarters in Lutrebois. After reporting in, they left to go to the Panzer Lehr Division headquarters located about a mile further south. Just before reaching the Panzer Lehr Headquarters, they saw the car of General von Manteuffel parked by a thicket of trees. Maj. Wagner stopped and reported to the General. They then proceeded to the Panzer Lehr headquarters. General von Luettwitz, the Corps Commander, happened to be there. They presented the "NUTS" reply. Upon hearing the negative reply, General Bayerlein, said it was time to start striking out with the heavy artillery located behind the hill. He was interrupted by General von Luettwitz who stated that the heavy artillery was no longer located there, it had been moved to forward positions past Bastogne. Bayerlein then started to explain how he would attack Bastogne without the heavy artillery, but was again interrupted by von Luettwitz. Von Luettwitz reminded Bayerlein that Bastogne was not his objective and ordered the Panzer Lehr Division to proceed around Bastogne to Rochefort and leave Bastogne to the 26th Volksgrenadier Division.

Editors Note:

This story retraces the events of December 22nd, 1944 at Bastogne, Belgium; the day we received German surrender ultimatum and issued the subsequent "Nuts!" reply.

Its author, Kenneth J. McAuliffe, Jr., is the nephew of Brig. Gen. Anthony 'Tony' McAuliffe who commanded the Division during the defense of Bastogne. This has been verified to be100% accurate.

Last revised on January 11, 2012.
 
An observation...
Every news organization this morning was reporting on the war, refugees, the China plane crash, gas prices etc., except CNN. In a failed attempt to click past CNN on satellite radio in my truck on the way to work, I caught that CNN apparently felt it was more important for the world to know that Kayne West is being naughty on Instagram again. Good lord.

In other breaking news, Anthony Fauci has completed Ninja training and has vowed to personally take out Vladimir Putin...Not for his war criminality but for stealing Fauci's thunder.

Let's go Archie!
 
My internet must suck today... that CNN/Petraeus piece would not load. Anyone care to share a synopsis? Thanks.
 
My internet must suck today... that CNN/Petraeus piece would not load. Anyone care to share a synopsis? Thanks.
The Russians will win even if they kill everyone and destroy the entire country.
 
My internet must suck today... that CNN/Petraeus piece would not load. Anyone care to share a synopsis? Thanks.

I watched it and here's a few of the takeaways I got, but probably not comprehensive.

1) Mariupol has become a war of attrition. Supplies to the city.....food, water, etc. have been completely cut off. But the soldiers and civilians there remain ready to fight. How long that can hold out, who knows?

2) Russian secure communications have broke down. What they have available can be jammed. This is important.

3) Because of the comms breakdowns, Russian generals are having to get closer to the fighting. This is bringing them out in the open where Ukraine snipers have been able to kill number of generals.

4) Number 3 leads to an overall breakdown on Command and Control. This is always a bad thing of course when fighting a war.

5) Number 4 is even worse as this means junior officers / NCOs from what I gathered reading on this thread and from the video need to make decisions either on their own or wait for those generals orders as mentioned above. But these junior officers / NCOs aren't doing that as it would seem they're not trained to do so. I could see where this leads to confusion and a feeling in the Russian troops of just what the hell is going on here?

6) Odesa falling would be hugely negative giving the Russians an easier port to resupply. Not that there's imminent danger of this, but it would be something to keep an eye on.

I think this is fairly accurate, but quite happy to defer to @Red Leg for his experienced input.
 

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