CoElkHunter
AH ambassador
Bob told me that they're subject to $5k fines for violating the Covid lockdown rules. He also told me they'll be locked down until November! Maybe he'll chime in here.
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Politics
- Thread starter Longwalker
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Wheels
AH ambassador
$10,000 Invested in Defense Stocks When Afghanistan War Began Now Worth Almost $100,000
Was the Afghanistan War a failure? Not for the top five defense contractors and their shareholders.
theintercept.com
$10,000 Invested in Defense Stocks When Afghanistan War Began Now Worth Almost $100,000
Was the Afghanistan War a failure? Not for the top five defense contractors and their shareholders.
theintercept.com
$10,000 INVESTED IN DEFENSE STOCKS WHEN AFGHANISTAN WAR BEGAN NOW WORTH ALMOST $100,000 Was the Afghanistan War a failure? Not for the top five defense contractors and their shareholders.
Newboomer
AH legend
There ya go. As long as the politicions and defense contractors can keep us entangled in some mess somewhere there is money to be made. We haven't had a clearcut victory since WWII. Everything since is still unsettled: Korea, Vietnam, mid east, and on and on.
$10,000 Invested in Defense Stocks When Afghanistan War Began Now Worth Almost $100,000
Was the Afghanistan War a failure? Not for the top five defense contractors and their shareholders.
$10,000 INVESTED IN DEFENSE STOCKS WHEN AFGHANISTAN WAR BEGAN NOW WORTH ALMOST $100,000 Was the Afghanistan War a failure? Not for the top five defense contractors and their shareholders.
mark-hunter
AH legend
@CoElkHunter
Balkans is not exception. The tensions are there and suppressed by foreign powers.
Take a better look at Bosnia, under Dayton agreement- which functions under European envoy. (which is just a little bit better then occupation)
There are three nations, waiting for next chance. If you let each nation to join their mother countries - (croats and serbs), it will create a Muslim country in the middle of European continent.
Nearby, you have Kosovo, where Serbia keeps a close look for her next chance to intervene - Kosovo was just till recently a part of Serbia. (Serbs still consider Kosovo a cradle of their nation, and no politician of theirs will ever deny it)
So, basically, if the west moves away from central Balkans there will be a war within 10 years. How far it will go to neighboring countries is anybodies guess.
en.wikipedia.org
You will see that this is all fresh history, created in nineties.
The first Islam terrorist groups have been imported to Bosnia during war at Balkans to help Bosniac war efforts to fight croats and serbs. They remained, in several villages.
www.spiegel.de
Balkans is not exception. The tensions are there and suppressed by foreign powers.
Take a better look at Bosnia, under Dayton agreement- which functions under European envoy. (which is just a little bit better then occupation)
There are three nations, waiting for next chance. If you let each nation to join their mother countries - (croats and serbs), it will create a Muslim country in the middle of European continent.
Nearby, you have Kosovo, where Serbia keeps a close look for her next chance to intervene - Kosovo was just till recently a part of Serbia. (Serbs still consider Kosovo a cradle of their nation, and no politician of theirs will ever deny it)
So, basically, if the west moves away from central Balkans there will be a war within 10 years. How far it will go to neighboring countries is anybodies guess.
Islamism and Islamic terrorism in the Balkans - Wikipedia
You will see that this is all fresh history, created in nineties.
The first Islam terrorist groups have been imported to Bosnia during war at Balkans to help Bosniac war efforts to fight croats and serbs. They remained, in several villages.
Islamic State Presence in Bosnia Cause for Concern
Radical Islamists have found a new refuge in Bosnia. They recruit fighters, promote jihad and preach a fundamentalist interpretation of Islam -- just across the border from the European Union.
CoElkHunter
AH ambassador
Well, your right. I apologize for my Western ignorant point of view of the situation. One of my best friends in high school was/is Yugoslavian. This was back during the USSR control in the late '70s. I was his Best Man in his wedding. I believe the political climate there was more "subdued" then, probably because the USSR controlled everything? It's great here on AH to get the REAL information from others around the world living where we are just reading about. And the information we get from the media isn't always correct and/or up to date. Thanks!@CoElkHunter
Balkans is not exception. The tensions are there and suppressed by foreign powers.
Take a better look at Bosnia, under Dayton agreement- which functions under European envoy. (which is just a little bit better then occupation)
There are three nations, waiting for next chance. If you let each nation to join their mother countries - (croats and serbs), it will create a Muslim country in the middle of European continent.
Nearby, you have Kosovo, where Serbia keeps a close look for her next chance to intervene - Kosovo was just till recently a part of Serbia. (Serbs still consider Kosovo a cradle of their nation, and no politician of theirs will ever deny it)
So, basically, if the west moves away from central Balkans there will be a war within 10 years. How far it will go to neighboring countries is anybodies guess.
Islamism and Islamic terrorism in the Balkans - Wikipedia
You will see that this is all fresh history, created in nineties.
The first Islam terrorist groups have been imported to Bosnia during war at Balkans to help Bosniac war efforts to fight croats and serbs. They remained, in several villages.
Islamic State Presence in Bosnia Cause for Concern
Radical Islamists have found a new refuge in Bosnia. They recruit fighters, promote jihad and preach a fundamentalist interpretation of Islam -- just across the border from the European Union.
mark-hunter
AH legend
@CoElkHunter
Yugoslavia was never a part of eastern block, and actually without significant influence of USSR.
Nominally, it was socialist system, but they developed different ways.
For example private enterprise was allowed. (the limit was on number of employees - which limited actually the size of private company)
the political separation from soviet union and eastern block came very early after ww2, in 1948, after Yugosalvia took her own course.
Separating from soviet influence and looking for another political solutions - Yugosalvia took another course, and soon after started international political movement of non-aligned countries. (almost like a third political block)
en.wikipedia.org
During this period 48-53 (till Stallin died)
there was strong support and military aid received from USA, because as it looked like, the war with soviet union was imminent. (from that time, and US military aid there was still full military warehouses full of thompson 45acp, submachine guns given by americans to support war against russia. and those guns were used in Balcan wars later)
The tensions slacked after Stallins death, but Yugoslavia never integrated back to eastern block, and relationships between the two countries eventually improved and came to normal.
Unlike any other communist country - ever since the sixties Yugoslavia had "open borders", for all foreign nations and tourists. And for its citizens getting a passport was easy, and who ever wanted to travel internationally for any reason, was not prohibited in doing so.
People traveled as tourists, or for reason of looking for job. (west Germany for example was full of Yugo labor)
Since the sixties - individual average standard was relatively high, if you consider - no homeless people, low unemployment rate, average household had a TV, a car, and a family could afford annual hollydays elsewhere, etc.
en.wikipedia.org
The lessons learned from political disagreement with USSR, and its own socialist like system has created the policy of self-sustainable economy and military industry to support large army.
How many countries do we know today that have technology and infrastructure to build submarines, ships, tanks, and military jet planes, some under license, some of own design? Yugoslavia did.
(not to mention the small arms and ammunition plants like PPU and zastava).
Yugoslav scientific team was amongst the first to break atom cell, after ww2 as they were part of European team in Cern, Switzerland, but later nuclear program stopped at one nuclear electrical plant. The military production gave boost to economy because they were exporting tanks, ammunition and guns to many third world countries - which through connections of non alligned movement was easy to do.
So, Yugoslavia took, initially positive and successful path.
There were, however, internal national tensions, never resolved properly, which were controlled, kept down, or manipulated successfully by president Tito, while he was still alive. he died in 1980. And then it took 10 years, for country to break apart.
And this ended in wars of nineties that we still have fresh in our memory.
It is my wild guess, and can be possibly argued, but Tito probably knew the never resolved nationalistic issues in Yugoslavia may result in disaster and war.
There were three Yugoslav constitutions made under Titos presidency: 1954, 1963, 1974, each more liberal then previous one.
As per constitution as of 1974, each Yugoslav republic had a right to declare independence, within its own borders.
If this was followed, as it was written, the war would never happen.
But this was constitution made under Titos rule, as a legal possibility to dissolve Yugoslavia, if it doesn't work under national policies of individual republics.
Yugoslavia was never a part of eastern block, and actually without significant influence of USSR.
Nominally, it was socialist system, but they developed different ways.
For example private enterprise was allowed. (the limit was on number of employees - which limited actually the size of private company)
the political separation from soviet union and eastern block came very early after ww2, in 1948, after Yugosalvia took her own course.
Separating from soviet influence and looking for another political solutions - Yugosalvia took another course, and soon after started international political movement of non-aligned countries. (almost like a third political block)
Informbiro period - Wikipedia
During this period 48-53 (till Stallin died)
there was strong support and military aid received from USA, because as it looked like, the war with soviet union was imminent. (from that time, and US military aid there was still full military warehouses full of thompson 45acp, submachine guns given by americans to support war against russia. and those guns were used in Balcan wars later)
The tensions slacked after Stallins death, but Yugoslavia never integrated back to eastern block, and relationships between the two countries eventually improved and came to normal.
Unlike any other communist country - ever since the sixties Yugoslavia had "open borders", for all foreign nations and tourists. And for its citizens getting a passport was easy, and who ever wanted to travel internationally for any reason, was not prohibited in doing so.
People traveled as tourists, or for reason of looking for job. (west Germany for example was full of Yugo labor)
Since the sixties - individual average standard was relatively high, if you consider - no homeless people, low unemployment rate, average household had a TV, a car, and a family could afford annual hollydays elsewhere, etc.
Non-Aligned Movement - Wikipedia
The lessons learned from political disagreement with USSR, and its own socialist like system has created the policy of self-sustainable economy and military industry to support large army.
How many countries do we know today that have technology and infrastructure to build submarines, ships, tanks, and military jet planes, some under license, some of own design? Yugoslavia did.
(not to mention the small arms and ammunition plants like PPU and zastava).
Yugoslav scientific team was amongst the first to break atom cell, after ww2 as they were part of European team in Cern, Switzerland, but later nuclear program stopped at one nuclear electrical plant. The military production gave boost to economy because they were exporting tanks, ammunition and guns to many third world countries - which through connections of non alligned movement was easy to do.
So, Yugoslavia took, initially positive and successful path.
There were, however, internal national tensions, never resolved properly, which were controlled, kept down, or manipulated successfully by president Tito, while he was still alive. he died in 1980. And then it took 10 years, for country to break apart.
And this ended in wars of nineties that we still have fresh in our memory.
It is my wild guess, and can be possibly argued, but Tito probably knew the never resolved nationalistic issues in Yugoslavia may result in disaster and war.
There were three Yugoslav constitutions made under Titos presidency: 1954, 1963, 1974, each more liberal then previous one.
As per constitution as of 1974, each Yugoslav republic had a right to declare independence, within its own borders.
If this was followed, as it was written, the war would never happen.
But this was constitution made under Titos rule, as a legal possibility to dissolve Yugoslavia, if it doesn't work under national policies of individual republics.
CoElkHunter
AH ambassador
Very interesting! Thanks for the history lesson. I guess the credit for the relative calm at the time goes to Tito and not the USSR. I've see photos here on AH of Tito hunting in Africa along with his wife. Seems like he was well respected generally in Yugoslavia at the time. I have several CZ (Zastava) rifles and they are well built and are my favorite rifles. Thanks!@CoElkHunter
Yugoslavia was never a part of eastern block, and actually without significant influence of USSR.
Nominally, it was socialist system, but they developed different ways.
For example private enterprise was allowed. (the limit was on number of employees - which limited actually the size of private company)
the political separation from soviet union and eastern block came very early after ww2, in 1948, after Yugosalvia took her own course.
Separating from soviet influence and looking for another political solutions - Yugosalvia took another course, and soon after started international political movement of non-aligned countries. (almost like a third political block)
Informbiro period - Wikipedia
During this period 48-53 (till Stallin died)
there was strong support and military aid received from USA, because as it looked like, the war with soviet union was imminent. (from that time, and US military aid there was still full military warehouses full of thompson 45acp, submachine guns given by americans to support war against russia. and those guns were used in Balcan wars later)
The tensions slacked after Stallins death, but Yugoslavia never integrated back to eastern block, and relationships between the two countries eventually improved and came to normal.
Unlike any other communist country - ever since the sixties Yugoslavia had "open borders", for all foreign nations and tourists. And for its citizens getting a passport was easy, and who ever wanted to travel internationally for any reason, was not prohibited in doing so.
People traveled as tourists, or for reason of looking for job. (west Germany for example was full of Yugo labor)
Individual average standard was relatively high, if you consider - no homeless people, low unemployment rate, average household had a TV, a car, and a family could afford annual hollydays elsewhere, etc.
Non-Aligned Movement - Wikipedia
The lessons learned from political disagreement with USSR, and its own socialist like system has created the policy of self-sustainable economy and military industry to support large army.
How many countries do we know today that have technology and infrastructure to build submarines, ships, tanks, and military jet planes, some under license, some of own design? Yugoslavia did.
(not to mention the small arms and ammunition plants like PPU and zastava).
Yugoslav scientific team was amongst the first to break atom cell, after ww2 as they were part of European team in Cern, Switzerland, but later nuclear program stopped at one nuclear electrical plant. The military production gave boost to economy because they were exporting tanks, ammunition and guns to many third world countries - which through connections of non alligned movement was easy to do.
So, Yugoslavia took, initially positive and successful path.
There were, however, internal national tensions, never resolved properly, which were controlled, kept down, or manipulated successfully by president Tito, while he was still alive. he died in 1980. And then it took 10 years, for country to break apart.
And this ended in wars of nineties that we still have fresh in our memory.
It is my wild guess, and can be possibly argued, but Tito probably knew the never resolved nationalistic issues in Yugoslavia may result in disaster and war.
There were three Yugoslav constitutions made under Titos presidency: 1954, 1963, 1974, each more liberal then previous one.
As per constitution as of 1974, each Yugoslav republic had a right to declare independence, within its own borders.
If this was followed, as it was written, the war would never happen.
But this was constitution made under Titos rule, as a legal possibility to dissolve Yugoslavia, if it doesn't work under national policies of individual republics.
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Foxi
AH legend
@CoElkHunter
Yugoslavia was never a part of eastern block, and actually without significant influence of USSR.
Nominally, it was socialist system, but they developed different ways.
For example private enterprise was allowed. (the limit was on number of employees - which limited actually the size of private company)
the political separation from soviet union and eastern block came very early after ww2, in 1948, after Yugosalvia took her own course.
Separating from soviet influence and looking for another political solutions - Yugosalvia took another course, and soon after started international political movement of non-aligned countries. (almost like a third political block)
Informbiro period - Wikipedia
During this period 48-53 (till Stallin died)
there was strong support and military aid received from USA, because as it looked like, the war with soviet union was imminent. (from that time, and US military aid there was still full military warehouses full of thompson 45acp, submachine guns given by americans to support war against russia. and those guns were used in Balcan wars later)
The tensions slacked after Stallins death, but Yugoslavia never integrated back to eastern block, and relationships between the two countries eventually improved and came to normal.
Unlike any other communist country - ever since the sixties Yugoslavia had "open borders", for all foreign nations and tourists. And for its citizens getting a passport was easy, and who ever wanted to travel internationally for any reason, was not prohibited in doing so.
People traveled as tourists, or for reason of looking for job. (west Germany for example was full of Yugo labor)
Since the sixties - individual average standard was relatively high, if you consider - no homeless people, low unemployment rate, average household had a TV, a car, and a family could afford annual hollydays elsewhere, etc.
Non-Aligned Movement - Wikipedia
The lessons learned from political disagreement with USSR, and its own socialist like system has created the policy of self-sustainable economy and military industry to support large army.
How many countries do we know today that have technology and infrastructure to build submarines, ships, tanks, and military jet planes, some under license, some of own design? Yugoslavia did.
(not to mention the small arms and ammunition plants like PPU and zastava).
Yugoslav scientific team was amongst the first to break atom cell, after ww2 as they were part of European team in Cern, Switzerland, but later nuclear program stopped at one nuclear electrical plant. The military production gave boost to economy because they were exporting tanks, ammunition and guns to many third world countries - which through connections of non alligned movement was easy to do.
So, Yugoslavia took, initially positive and successful path.
There were, however, internal national tensions, never resolved properly, which were controlled, kept down, or manipulated successfully by president Tito, while he was still alive. he died in 1980. And then it took 10 years, for country to break apart.
And this ended in wars of nineties that we still have fresh in our memory.
It is my wild guess, and can be possibly argued, but Tito probably knew the never resolved nationalistic issues in Yugoslavia may result in disaster and war.
There were three Yugoslav constitutions made under Titos presidency: 1954, 1963, 1974, each more liberal then previous one.
As per constitution as of 1974, each Yugoslav republic had a right to declare independence, within its own borders.
If this was followed, as it was written, the war would never happen.
But this was constitution made under Titos rule, as a legal possibility to dissolve Yugoslavia, if it doesn't work under national policies of individual republics.
Breschnew and Tito-
Judas kisses of friendship
All have oppressed their peoples´.
mark-hunter
AH legend
@Foxi...
The history has not yet defined legacy of Tito.
So I wouldn jump to either conclusion.
on your comment, not even being certain what is a general opinion, or main stream opinion of both leaders, i typed in google "legacy of...."and here is what came up. (besided the fact that I live(d) in both periods/contries YU-HR, or systems - I still wouldn't jump to that concussion.
In the case of Tito, it still remains for history to give final judgement on his historic role and legacy.
www.euractiv.com
For Brezhnev:
en.wikipedia.org
Brezhnev came to power in a country eager for stability. Under Brezhnev, the Soviet people experienced a dramatic rise in their standard of living. They took pride in their country’s status as a global superpower and in Brezhnev’s role as the architect of détente, a relaxation in cold-war tensions with the United States. The Soviet economy did stagnate during his tenure, however, after he rejected attempts to decentralize it, giving rise not only to episodic shortages of consumer goods but also to deficits in the Soviet “myth economy,” which bred cynicism.
The history has not yet defined legacy of Tito.
So I wouldn jump to either conclusion.
on your comment, not even being certain what is a general opinion, or main stream opinion of both leaders, i typed in google "legacy of...."and here is what came up. (besided the fact that I live(d) in both periods/contries YU-HR, or systems - I still wouldn't jump to that concussion.
In the case of Tito, it still remains for history to give final judgement on his historic role and legacy.
Forty years on, Tito's legacy still a hot topic
A benevolent unifier or power-hungry dictator? On the 40th anniversary of his death, the legacy of the late Yugoslav leader Josip Broz Tito remains a subject of debate in the Balkan lands once united by his grip.
www.euractiv.com
For Brezhnev:
Legacy of Leonid Brezhnev - Wikipedia
Last edited:
WAB
AH ambassador
For a very interesting read on the history of this region during WW11 pick up the book “The Forgotten 500”. It is about the rescue of downed US airmen but covers Mihailovic and Tito quite well. The Brits have a lot to answer for in the betrayal of Mihailovic and his ultimate execution.
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I'd love it f HR McMaster ran for POTUS in 2024. A real leader, smart and tough when he needs to be.
Former Trump national security advisor H. R. McMaster on Afghanistan collapse
Retired General H.R. McMaster served as former President Trump's National Security Advisor from 2017-2018. He joins "CBS This Morning" to discuss the collapse of Afghanistan's government and the Taliban's rapid takeover of the country.
www.cbsnews.com
mark-hunter
AH legend
@WAB
Mihailovic was not "ëxecuted", he continued fighting against Yugoslav authorities after the war ended, he did not surrender on wars end (why?) and continued guerrilla warfare, for one year after the war ended - so arrested in 1946.
He was arrested, then tried, for war crimes, sentenced to death, and then executed.
This was in period of time when allies were hanging Nazi war criminals after trials at Nurenberg.
In post Yugo millennial Serbia, - recently, with modern revision of local history, he was acquitted of all charges, and had restored his national status - in Serbia.
So modern Serbian history, and nationalist politics has rehabilitated him posthumously, but in the same time he is certainly not rehabilitated by Croatian history.
He was tried and sentenced to death by allied government of Yugoslavia, but also decorated by allied govt of USA - during presidency of Truman, for saving downed allied airmen.
On my personal note, I can say:
My grand-gran father was killed (elder civilian), by mauser 98 metal rifle but stock hits in the head by Mihalovic troops (repeatedly hit in the head, till the brain was splashed out).
The history states for fact:
Titos partisans were recognized allies and fighting force in ww2 by 1945.
Chetnics lost that by 1945 (fact).
So let's ask ourselves why?
Moving away from local perspective let me ask the question on ww2 European theater of war - on western and eastern front lines 1944, 45, who did the fighting?
You know well, the western front starting from Italy, and then in France from Normandy, and who kept it. this is easy.
The less known fact is - eastern front in ww2, 1944 was from Baltics in north, down to Adriatic and Med in the south.
Who kept then southern part, of eastern front in pushing Germans westward?
Well, sorry to say - Tito partisans, and the rest to the north up to Baltic front was kept by the soviets.
en.wikipedia.org
(on this link check the forces)
South of Syrmian front to adriatic sea coast was kept by partisans.
So where were the Chetnics by the end of 1944, when not assisting this final push against the germans?) Belgrade was after all, their capital, wasnt it?
Well, sorry to say, they were busy retreating with germans.
The swing in relationship with allies came around 1943-44, when allied missions went to Balkans and first hand saw who was fighting with whom.
In fact chetnics took active role in fighting partisan forces, thus asiding with enemy.
Italian forces (fascists) , occupying Yugoslavia in the south 41-43 - signed the treaty with them to fight the titos partisans. As early as 1942. (Italians occupied south part of kingdom of Yugoslavia, and how come chetniks were not fighting the Italians?)
en.wikipedia.org
Or, two years later, 1944. the battle at Drvar - the last battle where Tito fired a shot at enemy (the only field marshal actually shooting at enemy in ww2).
The details of battle are there but for quick reference gues who is fighting side by side with germans? Check belligerents.
en.wikipedia.org
In this situation - How would you define the friend of an enemy?
In my book, a friend of an enemy is my enemy.
In the same time during war at Balkans, the plan of Mihailovic was to stay passive in armed activity against occupying Nazi and fascists forces, collaborate where necessary against communists, till he would be swinging the sides and joining allies in case of their eventual landings on Adriatic coast.
His idea was joining the allies in last moment, and then establishing pre war monarchy, and removing the partisans-communists from power.
Was it cause noble enough to fight as ally with germans?
So during the war, he was just playing local policies, sending polished reports to London, and showing occasional British or american downed airman to save and deliver.
Having that policy of joining the allies in later stages of the war, assisting downed allied airmen was only political move for the future.
Tito partisans did that as well, saving downed airmen on the mainland, dont worry, and since Italian capitulation partisans kept island of Vis, and established airfield for allied warplanes damaged on continental air bombing missions.
When the war came to an end, the allies did not land on Adriatic coast, and the main forces of Mihailovic retreated to the west, together with remaining collaborationist forces and germans - where some where killed, some escaped, some of them met bitter end near Austrian town of Bleiburg.
en.wikipedia.org
Now let me ask you a question:
Knowing all this, as an fighting rightful american, whom would you choose in such circumstances for ally? Tito, or Mihailovic, in all the realities of war in Europe?
Would you choose a fighter, who fights nazis unconditionally and has a liberated piece of territory at all times - (the only libetrated piece of land in entire europe in ww2) where an allied airplane could land safely at times, or you would choose a calculating local warlord who is handling politics and local games , just based on temporary military and local distribution of power on the ground, and saving his forces from serious conflict with true enemy?
My perspective may be wrong, so I may add one more question:
be my guest and use any source available and find me the list of all major battles that Chetniks had against Germans and Italians in ww2, and then find the list of all major battles Tito partisans had against the Germans and Italians. Compare the two.
Then, do me a favor and choose the ally.
Let me add one more perspective, that is civilization perspective of history in ww2.
In 1939, Germans invaded Poland, but in fact the Poland was split in half and occupied by Germany from the west, and Soviet union from the East.
Yet, British bound by the guarantees given to Poland declared a war to Germany, but DO NOT delcare war on Soviet union?
The war on Germany in UK was declared by Chemberlain. Winston Churchil (hard anti-communist and one of greatest politicians in XX century) becomes PM in 1940, and again, does not declare war on Soviet union.
(soviet union went to war with germany only next year 1941, so at that time apparently soviet union and Germany are friends dividing Poland in half)
Why is that?
Because the second world war was not about capitalism and communism (this will be fought later in cold war), ww2 was about saving civilization and its heritage, against the racist Nazi and fasist ideologies destroying 2000 years of the heritage of our civilasion.
Or to put it in this way - The war was for our civilization which was at that moment globally threatened by Germany-Italy-Japan, and their puppet allies.
In that Global perspective of war strategies, and fight of civilization against the true evil, Mihailovic played the wrong card (monarchy vs communist card, instead of right or wrong), and failed miserably by choosing the historically wrong side.
Simply put, good guys in ww2 were Brits, Americans, Soviets, and Yugo partisans - and bad guys were Italians, Germany, Japan and those who were helping them.
Mihailovic was not "ëxecuted", he continued fighting against Yugoslav authorities after the war ended, he did not surrender on wars end (why?) and continued guerrilla warfare, for one year after the war ended - so arrested in 1946.
He was arrested, then tried, for war crimes, sentenced to death, and then executed.
This was in period of time when allies were hanging Nazi war criminals after trials at Nurenberg.
In post Yugo millennial Serbia, - recently, with modern revision of local history, he was acquitted of all charges, and had restored his national status - in Serbia.
So modern Serbian history, and nationalist politics has rehabilitated him posthumously, but in the same time he is certainly not rehabilitated by Croatian history.
He was tried and sentenced to death by allied government of Yugoslavia, but also decorated by allied govt of USA - during presidency of Truman, for saving downed allied airmen.
On my personal note, I can say:
My grand-gran father was killed (elder civilian), by mauser 98 metal rifle but stock hits in the head by Mihalovic troops (repeatedly hit in the head, till the brain was splashed out).
The history states for fact:
Titos partisans were recognized allies and fighting force in ww2 by 1945.
Chetnics lost that by 1945 (fact).
So let's ask ourselves why?
Moving away from local perspective let me ask the question on ww2 European theater of war - on western and eastern front lines 1944, 45, who did the fighting?
You know well, the western front starting from Italy, and then in France from Normandy, and who kept it. this is easy.
The less known fact is - eastern front in ww2, 1944 was from Baltics in north, down to Adriatic and Med in the south.
Who kept then southern part, of eastern front in pushing Germans westward?
Well, sorry to say - Tito partisans, and the rest to the north up to Baltic front was kept by the soviets.
Syrmian Front - Wikipedia
South of Syrmian front to adriatic sea coast was kept by partisans.
So where were the Chetnics by the end of 1944, when not assisting this final push against the germans?) Belgrade was after all, their capital, wasnt it?
Well, sorry to say, they were busy retreating with germans.
The swing in relationship with allies came around 1943-44, when allied missions went to Balkans and first hand saw who was fighting with whom.
In fact chetnics took active role in fighting partisan forces, thus asiding with enemy.
Italian forces (fascists) , occupying Yugoslavia in the south 41-43 - signed the treaty with them to fight the titos partisans. As early as 1942. (Italians occupied south part of kingdom of Yugoslavia, and how come chetniks were not fighting the Italians?)
Anti-Communist Volunteer Militia - Wikipedia
Or, two years later, 1944. the battle at Drvar - the last battle where Tito fired a shot at enemy (the only field marshal actually shooting at enemy in ww2).
The details of battle are there but for quick reference gues who is fighting side by side with germans? Check belligerents.
Operation Rösselsprung (1944) - Wikipedia
In this situation - How would you define the friend of an enemy?
In my book, a friend of an enemy is my enemy.
In the same time during war at Balkans, the plan of Mihailovic was to stay passive in armed activity against occupying Nazi and fascists forces, collaborate where necessary against communists, till he would be swinging the sides and joining allies in case of their eventual landings on Adriatic coast.
His idea was joining the allies in last moment, and then establishing pre war monarchy, and removing the partisans-communists from power.
Was it cause noble enough to fight as ally with germans?
So during the war, he was just playing local policies, sending polished reports to London, and showing occasional British or american downed airman to save and deliver.
Having that policy of joining the allies in later stages of the war, assisting downed allied airmen was only political move for the future.
Tito partisans did that as well, saving downed airmen on the mainland, dont worry, and since Italian capitulation partisans kept island of Vis, and established airfield for allied warplanes damaged on continental air bombing missions.
When the war came to an end, the allies did not land on Adriatic coast, and the main forces of Mihailovic retreated to the west, together with remaining collaborationist forces and germans - where some where killed, some escaped, some of them met bitter end near Austrian town of Bleiburg.
Bleiburg repatriations - Wikipedia
Now let me ask you a question:
Knowing all this, as an fighting rightful american, whom would you choose in such circumstances for ally? Tito, or Mihailovic, in all the realities of war in Europe?
Would you choose a fighter, who fights nazis unconditionally and has a liberated piece of territory at all times - (the only libetrated piece of land in entire europe in ww2) where an allied airplane could land safely at times, or you would choose a calculating local warlord who is handling politics and local games , just based on temporary military and local distribution of power on the ground, and saving his forces from serious conflict with true enemy?
My perspective may be wrong, so I may add one more question:
be my guest and use any source available and find me the list of all major battles that Chetniks had against Germans and Italians in ww2, and then find the list of all major battles Tito partisans had against the Germans and Italians. Compare the two.
Then, do me a favor and choose the ally.
Let me add one more perspective, that is civilization perspective of history in ww2.
In 1939, Germans invaded Poland, but in fact the Poland was split in half and occupied by Germany from the west, and Soviet union from the East.
Yet, British bound by the guarantees given to Poland declared a war to Germany, but DO NOT delcare war on Soviet union?
The war on Germany in UK was declared by Chemberlain. Winston Churchil (hard anti-communist and one of greatest politicians in XX century) becomes PM in 1940, and again, does not declare war on Soviet union.
(soviet union went to war with germany only next year 1941, so at that time apparently soviet union and Germany are friends dividing Poland in half)
Why is that?
Because the second world war was not about capitalism and communism (this will be fought later in cold war), ww2 was about saving civilization and its heritage, against the racist Nazi and fasist ideologies destroying 2000 years of the heritage of our civilasion.
Or to put it in this way - The war was for our civilization which was at that moment globally threatened by Germany-Italy-Japan, and their puppet allies.
In that Global perspective of war strategies, and fight of civilization against the true evil, Mihailovic played the wrong card (monarchy vs communist card, instead of right or wrong), and failed miserably by choosing the historically wrong side.
Simply put, good guys in ww2 were Brits, Americans, Soviets, and Yugo partisans - and bad guys were Italians, Germany, Japan and those who were helping them.
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WAB
AH ambassador
Probably a translation issue but as you state, Mihailovic was executed after the end of the war. The Brits changed position on him and moved their support to Tito based on questionable intel. The USA owes him a tremendous debt of gratitude.
I don’t think anything I have stated is incorrect.
I don’t think anything I have stated is incorrect.
Tundra Tiger
AH legend
I saw this quote on a friend's FB timeline. Sadly, a) it is at least as applicable today as it was when Roosevelt said it, maybe more so and b) Biden is very, very much a mollycoddle. In fact, Washington is replete with them, IMHO.
“Weasel words from mollycoddles will never do when the day demands prophetic clarity from great hearts. Manly men must emerge for this hour of trial.” - Theodore Roosevelt
“Weasel words from mollycoddles will never do when the day demands prophetic clarity from great hearts. Manly men must emerge for this hour of trial.” - Theodore Roosevelt
Brent in Az
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sgt_zim
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Connors was introduced to Leonid Brezhnev, the leader of the Soviet Union, at a party given by Nixon at the Western White House in San Clemente, California, in June 1973. Connors presented Brezhnev with a pair of Colt Single Action Army "Six-Shooters" (revolvers) which Brezhnev liked greatly.
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EC HUNTING SAFARIS wrote on MarcoPani's profile.
Happy Birthday, from Grahamstown, South Africa.
I hope your day is great!
Cheers
Marius
I hope your day is great!
Cheers
Marius
EC HUNTING SAFARIS wrote on Ilkay Taskin's profile.
Happy Birthday from Grahamstown, South Africa! I hope you have a great day!
Cheers, Marius
Cheers, Marius
idjeffp wrote on Jon R15's profile.
Hi Jon,
I saw your post for the .500 NE cases. Are these all brass or are they nickel plated? Hard for me to tell... sorry.
Thanks,
Jeff [redacted]
Boise, ID
[redacted]
I saw your post for the .500 NE cases. Are these all brass or are they nickel plated? Hard for me to tell... sorry.
Thanks,
Jeff [redacted]
Boise, ID
[redacted]