Politics

[WAB]

Tough day for those who sacrificed and fought for every inch of
that ground. Democracy does not work in a tribal society. We don’t have to look any further than Africa for that lesson.

 

[PARA45]

We did not have a combat loss in 18 months. Our involvement now was minimal, and it was working at keeping the Taliban away. I bet you that if we were not in S. Korea, Rocket Man Sr & Jr would have walked all over S. Korea a long time ago.

 

[Saul]

We did not have a combat loss in 18 months. Our involvement now was minimal, and it was working at keeping the Taliban away. I bet you that if we were not in S. Korea, Rocket Man Sr & Jr would have walked all over S. Korea a long time ago.

Doubt it. South Koreans are tough SOBs who love freedom and democracy.

 

[Hogpatrol]

 

[Wheels]

 

[Wheels]

 

[mark-hunter]

This is the country that hasnt changed in 1000 years. (Afghanistan)
Here is how Winston Churchill, then an aspiring young officer and war correspondent, describes it more then 120 years ago, with very similar and present western false allusions of building the empire (or western civilization, or nation building in todays terms,) in that god forsaken land . Before Churchill there were two Anglo afghan wars, and after Churchill three more.

How Churchill Fought The Pashtuns in Pakistan​

Before the Soviets and before the Americans, the British were in Afghanistan.

Pashtun tribesmen had unearthed the 36 bodies of fallen British and Indian soldiers, hastily buried a few days earlier in unmarked graves, and mutilated them beyond recognition.
“The tribesmen are among the most miserable and brutal creatures on earth. Their intelligence only enables them to be more cruel, more dangerous, more destructible than the wild beasts. (…) I find it impossible to come to any other conclusion than that, in proportion that these valleys are purged form the pernicious vermin that infest them, so will the happiness of humanity be increased, and the progress of mankind accelerated,” a shaken and sulfurous Churchill jotted down in his notebook that day.


or... how the ideals changed when facing the reality

Yet, finding the mutilated corpses on that September morning put a slight temper on the “medal hunter” as he was sometimes dismissively called. Some of the desecrated dead he found in Desemdullah were young British soldiers of his age, perhaps bringing home for the first time the realities of war to Churchill, who joined hoping “like most young fools” that “something exciting would happen” while he was with the troops.


And today nothing has changed, neither the land, nor the tribes, nor the western expectations, nor the outcome of occasional wars.

How Churchill Fought The Pashtuns in Pakistan

Before the Soviets and before the Americans, the British were in Afghanistan.

thediplomat.com

 

[Vashper]

In the last century, a secular state with a combat-ready army, women's rights, schools, hospitals, etc. existed there for several years.. It lasted even longer than the Soviet Union. Alas, the West did not like it very much, and the Islamic fanatics still destroyed it.

 

[Vashper]

How do the taxpayers put up with it? Because the military industrial complex directly and by proxy controls the U.S. congress, state and local politicians and the tens of millions of workers and their unions employed by this mega-enterprise. Need more proof?

Military Bases By State – ID, IL, IN, KS, KY, LA, ME, MD, MA, MI, MS, MO

Military Bases By State – Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana

militarybases.com

Example: Senator Jockstrap says to Senator MaryJoe. "I'll vote for your new train station if you vote for improvements in my state's naval airbase". "We'll put it in the infrastructure bill".

75 years on this rock and one thing I've learned about the superpowers. World peace isn't their goal. It's something to be avoided at all costs.

I don't know much about the distribution of funds, but I suspect that the main item of expenditure there was for the "democratization of Afghan society". This is a good field of activity, it is impossible to check the costs for it, it is like garbage collection and road construction. Maybe I will offend someone, but in poor societies the value of democracy is near zero, but the high standard of living of the West, especially where there are benefits for "refugees", is very attractive. However, it is very easy to portray "democracy". And any person in a society like the Afghan one is well aware that the level of democracy will not affect his personal standard of living in the near future. And moving to the West will affect it. Therefore, 300 thousand refugees from Afghanistan have appeared in Europe alone in recent years, instead of building a democratic society in their country. They simply did not believe in it, as did those who remained there for the time being.
The Americans did not understand very well what was happening in the country. "The month of pride for pederasty" is just a funny confirmation of this thesis. The Afghans have a very difficult attitude to these phenomena.
A few years ago, Afghans (not supporters of the Taliban) told me that this organization is already present in state structures, there was also a faction in parliament. Under a different name, but everyone knew everything. So there is nothing surprising in recent events. The army has not "lost the will to resist". It was just already the Taliban army. And some figures of the previous regime will feel great now.

 

[Newboomer]

Joe:
There you go again sniffing someone else's hair!

Or is he whispering that he'll work with them?

 

[CoElkHunter]

View attachment 418884

Yeah, where's his mask? Ha!

 

[Brent in Az]

We spend 20 years trying to dig combatants out of caves. Now when they are out in the open as targets of opportunity we run like school girls. Think I’ll puke

That MOAB bomb they dropped on the cave hideouts was pretty impressive.

 

[Vashper]

It's not only my opinion. One guy from Sweden: "All this positive words Afghanistan making progress, well trained military and police, democratic progress, democratic political institutions.
--It was a lie, control of media, control of public opinion in US and Europe, the military sending out a never ender positive view no matter how the reality looks".

 

[Dragan N.]

And we have been in Europe and South Korea for how many years? It would have taken at least three generations to turn the tide in that country. Big mistake to leave. The USA has not faired very well in nation building for the last 50 years.

Those are not really comparable examples. There are no active guerrilla movements in any of those countries. There is certainly rhetoric coming from certain politicians in say Japan, Germany or wherever else who want the Americans to leave but they are a minority. No one there is fighting a war to kick the Americans out.

This also highlights an important difference between countries that are "nation-states" and have an organized government and infrastructure and ones that are tribal societies which lack a centralized government. The Japanese were difficult to defeat it took 4 years to get a capitulation but once they did capitulate- it was fairly easy to occupy them. The Taliban government in 2001 fell in a month (easily defeated) but then they turned to guerrilla warfare and outlasted the US and NATO. Most major powers actually have a pretty poor track record fighting insurgencies. I think they win in only about 25% of such conflicts. Bad idea to stay in such a country and try to fight a never ending war.

 

[Vashper]

This is the case... at the beginning of the 19th century, the Germans did not oppose Napoleon and fought very well on his side. In Munich, there is a monument to 30 thousand Bavarian soldiers who went to Russia (none returned). And when Bonaparte staggered, the Germans remembered that the continental blockade had deprived them of coffee, and rebelled. and Blucher's army struck the last blow at Waterloo, and no prisoners were taken. As one literary character, Ostap Bender, said: "in our business, the main thing is to get away in time." Not all politicians understand this.

 

[CoElkHunter]

Very interesting posts here regarding the current situation in Afghanistan and the wider view of geopolitical instability. I’ve been contemplating the current ramifications of potential renewed terrorism throughput the civilized world via the fall of Afghanistan to avowed jihadists and caliphate builders. So, I began thinking back to WW2 and through the current situation. With the exception of WW2, The one constant thing that stands out is WE, the civilized countries and armies, play by the rules and THEY (many nation states and insurgents) don’t? I’ve always heard that WE play by the rules because we don’t want to become THEM. Well, THEY seem to keep prevailing from Korea, Vietnam, Iraq to Afghanistan. Whether the conflicts are “police actions” or wars, justified or not, WE seem to spend a lot of money and thousands of our soldiers are killed while THEY ultimately prevail? There are some exceptions, like the Balkans, but very few. Maybe we need to rethink our rules of engagement when our adversaries play by no rules?

 

[jpr9954]

 

[CJW]

@CoElkHunter that would be nice but it won't happen. Look what the media did to Israel a couple months ago.

 

[sestoppelman]

Is it as bad in OZ as some news stories seem to say per what the Gov is saying you an do and what you cant during the latest Covid shut down?
Saw where they are saying somewhere down there that you cant take your mask off to take a drink outside! Is that for real? What kind of lame brain dreams up this stuff?
Heard also that this is "no time to be chatty with your neighbors"? WTH?!

 

[CoElkHunter]

@CoElkHunter that would be nice but it won't happen. Look what the media did to Israel a couple months ago.

I know. But, I had to put it out there. When our "leaders" (useless politicians with hidden agendas) decide ever changing abstract "rules of engagement" for our fighting men and women battling an enemy with no rules, we shouldn't be involved AT ALL! I say bring back the draft with no "exemptions" for the wealthy politicians and have their sons and daughters drafted. We'll see how many "conflicts" we get involved with then and how the rules of engagement magically change!