Politics

[wesheltonj]

Not to sound callous, but pulling out of Afghanistan was the right thing to do. How much more money and American lives must be lost to prop up a Muslim country that hates us? If they want to descend into chaos again, why do we need to be the ones to stop them? They had 20 years to build up a robust society that would resist Taliban rule, and yet they did nothing because the reality is that they will always hate Western ideology.

And we have been in Europe and South Korea for how many years? It would have taken at least three generations to turn the tide in that country. Big mistake to leave. The USA has not faired very well in nation building for the last 50 years.

 

[Saul]

And we have been in Europe and South Korea for how many years? It would have taken at least three generations to turn the tide in that country. Big mistake to leave. The USA has not faired very well in nation building for the last 50 years.

You want us to spend three generations in Afghanistan? Why do we need to be spending trillions of dollars and lives of American soldiers doing nation building in the middle east?

 

[VertigoBE]

Not to sound callous, but pulling out of Afghanistan was the right thing to do. How much more money and American lives must be lost to prop up a Muslim country that hates us? If they want to descend into chaos again, why do we need to be the ones to stop them? They had 20 years to build up a robust society that would resist Taliban rule, and yet they did nothing because the reality is that they will always hate Western ideology.

I’m not saying the US should not have pulled out at some point (although there are ways in doing this more orderly than what is happening now).

The whole idea of nation building, where there is so much cultural difference, was where it went wrong in the first place imo. After 9/11, when the culprits were identified, the US should have made the extermination of Al-Qaeda their only priority. Striking fast and hard from up high, with only a minimum of boots on the ground. As soon as it turned from punishment for 9/11, into saving the Afghan people from the Taliban, the war was lost.

 

[Saul]

I’m not saying the US should not have pulled out at some point (although there are ways in doing this more orderly than what is happening now).

The whole idea of nation building, where there is so much cultural difference, was where it went wrong in the first place imo. After 9/11, when the culprits were identified, the US should have made the extermination of Al-Qaeda their only priority. Striking fast and hard from up high, with only a minimum of boots on the ground. As soon as it turned from punishment for 9/11, into saving the Afghan people from the Taliban, the war was lost.

Completely agree.

As someone who does not have many positive things to say about Trump, even I will admit that him planning this withdrawal was one of the few good moves of his presidency.

 

[Vashper]

I'll lighten the moral burden a little. The operation in Afghanistan was not an enterprise of the United States and the European Union - it was authorized by the UN Security Council. So here everybody is in chocolate together.

 

[Saul]

Also, has anyone else noticed that all of the people trying to flee Afghanistan in the airport videos are men? So much for protecting their women and children.

 

[lwaters]

The politicians don't need Afghanistan anymore. They can milk the Corona for 10yrs.

 

[mark-hunter]

@Saul
You can check online sources, of course that there is great majority of men 80-90% are illegal immigrants.
This is spanish statistics:

Illegal arrivals of men, women and children in Spain 2023 | Statista

In 2023, almost 90 percent of migrants who arrived illegally through Spain's southern border were male adults.

www.statista.com

 

[Saul]

@Saul
You can check online sources, of course that there is great majority of men 80-90% are illegal immigrants.
This is spanish statistics:

Illegal arrivals of men, women and children in Spain 2023 | Statista

In 2023, almost 90 percent of migrants who arrived illegally through Spain's southern border were male adults.

www.statista.com

No surprise there unfortunately.

 

[Wheels]

After 9/11, America's response should have been to go into Afghanistan, and completely destroy Al-Qaeda and as much of the Taliban as possible. Then in a year or so leave the country to it's own devices.

The Taliban would have retaken control. They may have let Al Qaeda rebuild. They would have known however it would not be good to attack America again or the same or worse would happen.

The days of America trying to be the "worlds policeman" or "nation build" are hopefully over. I wouldn't bet on it however. There is way too much money in the American military complex to let that happen. Money flows through lobbyist who write bills, then to congress and politicians who pass bills. The money is returned in multiples to the military complex so more wars can be fought. The system is corrupt. Until the system changes, American blood and tax money will continue to flow.

 

[Wheels]

Afghan's kick the British Empires butt.

Afghan's kick the Soviet Unions butt.

America, hold my beer!

 

[Saul]

Afghan's kick the British Empires butt.

Afghan's kick the Soviet Unions butt.

America, hold my beer!

Looks like China is ready to take the ride now.

 

[Wheels]

Looks like China is ready to take the ride now.

It would be fun to watch that happen.

China hates the Muslim world. Just see what they do to their own community.

They will do their best to play the game, just as they are playing in Pakistan at the moment.

 

[curtism1234]

This was destined to happen whether it was under Bush, Obama, Trump, Biden, or future admin. After 20 years of military training the Afghan forces folded like a chair - something the intel sources predicted but got the timing wrong. It is hard to imagine them letting the Taliban walk right in like the US forces did on Baghdad. The US's biggest mistake was miscalculating the worst case scenario. Biden will, however, bear the brunt of this. Politically he can come out of this if the Taliban do not resist the evacuation of US diplomats. I have a feeling they will honor the evacuation but who knows how truly organized they are.

Hard telling what the Taliban are going to do, they are a complete wildcard. We know they are not Al Qaeda, they are slightly different from the Taliban of yesteryear, they negotiated a deal with President Trump which they aren't really keeping, and they have themselves a country they don't want to govern.

At this point they just need to assign a dictator, kill who they are going to kill, and everyone move on

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

I’m not saying the US should not have pulled out at some point (although there are ways in doing this more orderly than what is happening now).

The whole idea of nation building, where there is so much cultural difference, was where it went wrong in the first place imo. After 9/11, when the culprits were identified, the US should have made the extermination of Al-Qaeda their only priority. Striking fast and hard from up high, with only a minimum of boots on the ground. As soon as it turned from punishment for 9/11, into saving the Afghan people from the Taliban, the war was lost.

I agree. The way you alter bad behaviour even on a nation level is punishment, hard and swift. The second you go in there and try to transform them, you have lost the target to punish.

 

[Saul]

I agree. The way you alter bad behaviour even on a nation level is punishment, hard and swift. The second you go in there and try to transform them, you have lost the target to punish.

At least for people who have fundamentally different ideology from your own. If this were a Western nation, it would be much easier to use the promise of personal liberty and economic prosperity as a motivator instead of punishment. However, when you are dealing with Muslims who see anything Western as inherently evil, there is nothing we can do to entice them to accept our beliefs.

 

[lwaters]

After 9/11, America's response should have been to go into Afghanistan, and completely destroy Al-Qaeda and as much of the Taliban as possible. Then in a year or so leave the country to it's own devices.

The Taliban would have retaken control. They may have let Al Qaeda rebuild. They would have known however it would not be good to attack America again or the same or worse would happen.

The days of America trying to be the "worlds policeman" or "nation build" are hopefully over. I wouldn't bet on it however. There is way too much money in the American military complex to let that happen. Money flows through lobbyist who write bills, then to congress and politicians who pass bills. The money is returned in multiples to the military complex so more wars can be fought. The system is corrupt. Until the system changes, American blood and tax money will continue to flow.

I agree with that a 100%. Now the government doesn't want you leaving the country and spending your money elsewhere. Vegas used to be a good vacation and they started charging a fortune for everything. Cheaper to go to Mexico. There trying to stop that with covid. You can be sick and they will let you board your domestic flight but I seen them haul a sick Indian of a flight going out of Durban RSA.

 

[CJW]

At least for people who have fundamentally different ideology from your own. If this were a Western nation, it would be much easier to use the promise of personal liberty and economic prosperity as a motivator instead of punishment. However, when you are dealing with Muslims who see anything Western as inherently evil, there is nothing we can do to entice them to accept our beliefs.

The problem is a barbaric or even cave man ideology and Islam is used as the excuse for their actions. Centuries of tribal fighting and inbreeding has led those people down a curved path that nobody can straighten out. If women want things different over there they will have to do it themselves. I don't believe that the average Afghan male cares one bit for anyone but himself, maybe his sons, and this total collapse proves it. I would rather die young and fighting in that horrible situation than live for another 80 years under the rule of illiterate barbarians.

I for one am not surprised in the least that the Taliban took over with the speed they did. When their drive meets the average Afghani's resolve, only bad things can come of it.

I also don't and haven't seen our occupation over there as a "war" as most label it. In my view, we were merely over there to keep the Taliban from running uninhibited and congregating for too long like before 9/11. Having bases in the country sure makes that easier. Now that is gone and they are free to do as they please with absolutely no help from those we trained and left well armed.

 

[LivingTheDream]

We underestimated the level of corruption or at least failed to believe it to be real. Many of those cities were captured with barely a shot.

 

[wesheltonj]

You want us to spend three generations in Afghanistan? Why do we need to be spending trillions of dollars and lives of American soldiers doing nation building in the middle east?

Yes. We could have went in and killed the necessary people and and left. But we did not, we killed folks and then started nation building, that places us there for the long haul.

You might want to look at some you tube video of that area in the 60’s and 70’s. Big difference and very westernized.