Politics

[PARA45]

Riley Gaines at least has common sense, vs. the idiot in the above post.

MSN

 

[BSO Dave]

Virtually no one in Trump world has or has had at any point in their lives the least question about what that aid entails, how it is distributed, how it is accounted for, what its strategic implications might be, when it might end, or what negative effects that aid might cause our economy.

LOL...!
You keep making these inaccurate assertions that I am a "Trump supporter" and therefore unable to grasp the finer nuances of this discussion which is nothing more than continued arrogance on your part. Yes, it is probably true that my political views lean more populist than RINO, but that hardly makes me a full-time resident of "Trump world". There is a stark difference in embracing certain policies and giving credit where credit is due and blind allegiance to any one individual... I am fully aware of what Trump is and is not... However, it certainly seems that your TDS clouds your better judgement in some circumstances...

Since I am not a resident of your perceived "Trump world" I do, and always have questioned where our tax dollars are spent regardless of the recipients which are unfortunately far more numerous and vast beyond Israel or Ukraine. This government has a long-esteemed history of pissing away money both foreign and aboard. This should always be a concern for any true fiscal conservative. While I would never call Trump a fiscal conservative, at least he has spent the money in accordance with where our priorities should lie..

I simply had to laugh. And if you can't see the humor, let's not discuss that either.

You made it quite clear many posts ago that we have completely different points of view and therefore, nothing more to discuss on this topic... I agree we have different points of view on some topics, but I would never say I have nothing more to discuss with anyone here... You think yours is the only opinion that counts especially on this subject... That's the problem with the entire country at the moment...

 

[Red Leg]

In case you have forgotten the origins of the war in Syria, you can review the YT vid of Ms Clinton in 2012 saying “we don’t know how long Bashir Assad can survive, but he will certainly be gone within 6 months” as she armed the Taliban. Pres. Assad is still there, btw. Man up. Admit you’ve made a mistake, and hold the democrat crime syndicate accountable….or are you hoping for another war? …..FWB

If you are directing this at me, what on earth are you talking about?

You brought up 4 years of peace and I suggested the second Eisenhower term.

@Corey0372 pointed out the Trump the inherited deployment within Syria from Obama, which is correct. However, on April 2017 Trump initiated a kinetic strike employing 59 cruise missiles against the Syrian targets following the probable use of nerve agents against Syrian civilians. This was the first direct attack by US military forces against the Syrian regime - hence my comment that he "initiated kinetic" operations in Syria. That was followed by another set of strikes against Syrian military targets in April of 2018.

Pres. Assad is still there, btw. Man up. Admit you’ve made a mistake, and hold the democrat crime syndicate accountable….or are you hoping for another war? …..FWB

Huh?

 

[Red Leg]

LOL...!
You keep making these inaccurate assertions that I am a "Trump supporter" and therefore unable to grasp the finer nuances of this discussion which is nothing more than continued arrogance on your part. Yes, it is probably true that my political views lean more populist than RINO, but that hardly makes me a full-time resident of "Trump world". There is a stark difference in embracing certain policies and giving credit where credit is due and blind allegiance to any one individual... I am fully aware of what Trump is and is not... However, it certainly seems that your TDS clouds your better judgement in some circumstances...

Since I am not a resident of your perceived "Trump world" I do, and always have questioned where our tax dollars are spent regardless of the recipients which are unfortunately far more numerous and vast beyond Israel or Ukraine. This government has a long-esteemed history of pissing away money both foreign and aboard. This should always be a concern for any true fiscal conservative. While I would never call Trump a fiscal conservative, at least he has spent the money in accordance with where our priorities should lie..



You made it quite clear many posts ago that we have completely different points of view and therefore, nothing more to discuss on this topic... I agree we have different points of view on some topics, but I would never say I have nothing more to discuss with anyone here... You think yours is the only opinion that counts especially on this subject... That's the problem with the entire country at the moment...

Ok, you aren't. I accept that. But, I do indeed care what a large political faction seems to embrace with no critical thought with regard to Ukraine. That discussion was the intent of the post.

No one in the Trump movement (not you), of whom I am aware, is at all questioning our support for Israel. I simply pointed out that the model used in supporting Israel, particularly during the first few decades of its existence, is the closest parallel I can think of to the model being used for Ukraine. I also believe the strategic risks in supporting Israel were then and still are as great as not supporting Ukraine now. I would again reiterate that most of Israel's former existential enemies are actually our regional strategic partners, regardless of their form of government. I would also note that support has cost us actual economic hardship more than once and regional political military turbulence since the founding of the state of Israel.

Should we then support Israel? I think so, but we shouldn't kid ourselves that we get much out of it but a lot of trouble and enormous expense as we deal with the periodic passions raised by its existence.

So, I do find it frustrating that we have political faction in this country, supporting whatever the risk and whatever the cost, a foreign government that provides no real strategic benefit to this country while wanting to ignore the needs of a country whose demise would represent an very real threat to this country.

In that European nation we have forty million people seeking and fighting for the right self determination. They are also a people to whom we pledged our support should they relinquish their nuclear weapons. Obama ignored that pledge in 2014 encouraging the bolder move Putin made in '22. I think we certainly owe Ukraine something. But more importantly, Putin has begun a process to reestablish Russia as the preeminent political military power in Eurasia. We decided way back in 1947 that represented a direct threat to our national interests. I believe nothing has changed and it would be the height of foolishness, even recklessness, to abet the Kremlin in achieving that goal. And by not supporting Ukraine that is exactly what the Trump wing of the Republican party has decided to do.

The typical response I get here, is not reasoned debate backed with facts, but it is that I have TDS, or more recently, I am arrogant or my opinion is the "only one that counts." Today, I was told to "man up."

To be very clear, I think we have at the moment two terrible choices for president. One of those terrible choices is Donald J Trump. I am confident that most people in this country actually agree with that assessment whether he eventually gets their vote or not. If that amounts to TDS, then I gladly plead guilty.

If I seem arrogant because I state beliefs with some level of assurance, then I would suggest not reading my posts. I base what I believe and the points I make on a pretty firm experience and educational foundation, and it takes a lot more than name calling or repeating some nonsense from a right wing site to change my mind. And no I did not say that you repeat disinformation from right wing sites, but for instance, the whole Zelensky is corrupt and Ukraine is losing campaign sponsored by Russia and embraced by many Trump followers, isn't the same as offering factual debate. I am happy to challenge any of that sort of misinformation.

 

[Altitude sickness]

I think many can rest easy. it’s a safe bet that Trump will never hold that office again.
All the Brennan, Clapper, Comey and Peter Strzok holdovers are still entrenched.

Would anyone like to wager. My wager is.

one way or another he will never be sworn in.

 

[BSO Dave]

Ok, you aren't. I accept that. But, I do indeed care what a large political faction seems to embrace with no critical thought with regard to Ukraine. That discussion was the intent of the post.

No one in the Trump movement (not you), of whom I am aware, is at all questioning our support for Israel. I simply pointed out that the model used in supporting Israel, particularly during the first few decades of its existence, is the closest parallel I can think of to the model being used for Ukraine. I also believe the strategic risks in supporting Israel were then and still are as great as not supporting Ukraine now. I would again reiterate that most of Israel's former existential enemies are actually our regional strategic partners, regardless of their form of government. I would also note that support has cost us actual economic hardship more than once and regional political military turbulence since the founding of the state of Israel.

Should we then support Israel? I think so, but we shouldn't kid ourselves that we get much out of it but a lot of trouble and enormous expense as we deal with the periodic passions raised by its existence.

So, I do find it frustrating that we have political faction in this country, supporting whatever the risk and whatever the cost, a foreign government that provides no real strategic benefit to this country while wanting to ignore the needs of a country whose demise would represent an very real threat to this country.

In that European nation we have forty million people seeking and fighting for the right self determination. They are also a people to whom we pledged our support should they relinquish their nuclear weapons. Obama ignored that pledge in 2014 encouraging the bolder move Putin made in '22. I think we certainly owe Ukraine something. But more importantly, Putin has begun a process to reestablish Russia as the preeminent political military power in Eurasia. We decided way back in 1947 that represented a direct threat to our national interests. I believe nothing has changed and it would be the height of foolishness, even recklessness, to abet the Kremlin in achieving that goal. And by not supporting Ukraine that is exactly what the Trump wing of the Republican party has decided to do.

I honestly don't necessarily disagree with any of the assertions you have made here...

My problem with our support of Ukraine has never been about justification or necessity... It's been one of accountability... And yes, I believe that each and every US taxpayer is entitled to the same accountability for every dollar of foreign aid this country spends regardless of who it is sent to or why...

You have also stated a few times that Trump is opposed to support for Ukraine and he would immediately cease US support if he was re-elected.... Is this an opinion or do you actually have a record of him saying that? The only thing that I have heard him say is that he could end the war in 24 hours which is obviously hyperbolic, but effectively powerful political rhetoric... Please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe Trump has been very deliberately vague with respect to actual policy with Ukraine during this campaign.

The typical response I get here, is not reasoned debate backed with facts, but it is that I have TDS, or more recently, I am arrogant or my opinion is the "only one that counts." Today, I was told to "man up."

I never accused you of having TDS because you failed to present the facts in your arguments... I accused you of having TDS because you have stated many times your personal disdain for Trump's character which I believe has caused you to disregard the facts about his policies and accomplishments. That, by definition is TDS...

Sometimes in healthy debate, folks can have valid differences of opinion based on different perspectives regardless of the "facts" as they are... That doesn't necessarily delineate how people feel and are being affected in everyday life... So, presenting the "facts" with your argument may not carry the same weight with others who are sailing in a very different boat than the one you are in... They have their own set of facts that offer a different perspective and often different priorities.

To be very clear, I think we have at the moment two terrible choices for president. One of those terrible choices is Donald J Trump. I am confident that most people in this country actually agree with that assessment whether he eventually gets their vote or not. If that amounts to TDS, then I gladly plead guilty.

I believe that we have only one "less than ideal" choice for POTUS in Trump... The other "choice" is no choice at all to any human being capable of even the simplest form of cognitive thought... Ideally, I would happily vote for any of the current field of republican candidates all of whom would be vast improvement over anything the dems could offer. I would even vote for Christie for whom I personally suffer CDS...

I do disagree, however, with your assertion about how most folks feel about Trump... If that was true, why then why has he led the field by an average of 50 points since he announced his re-election bid? Republicans have been presented with a half dozen quality alternatives to Trump, all of which appear to be overwhelmingly rejected by the polling. Yet, Trump continues to dominate despite his legal and personal baggage... If he is such a detestable choice, why is he dominating the field? Trump also continues to collect endorsements from many elected officials with 5 of the most recent being some of the most powerful republicans in public office all who I would classify as RINOS... Why??

If I seem arrogant because I state beliefs with some level of assurance, then I would suggest not reading my posts. I base what I believe and the points I make on a pretty firm experience and educational foundation, and it takes a lot more than name calling or repeating some nonsense from a right wing site to change my mind. And no I did not say that you repeat disinformation from right wing sites, but for instance, the whole Zelensky is corrupt and Ukraine is losing campaign sponsored by Russia and embraced by many Trump followers, isn't the same as offering factual debate. I am happy to challenge any of that sort of misinformation.

I do not discount, nor have I ever doubted your credibility based on your personal experiences. That's precisely why I would never argue with you over the best choice of weapons to send to Ukraine, Israel or any place else for that matter. However, when it comes to accessing policy, these are not black and white issues with only one correct answer... Everyone here who has their own experience and education to draw from is entitled to have their own informed opinion from their own personal prospective... I occasionally accuse you of arrogance only because you sometimes conflate fact with opinion however informed that opinion may be...

I continue to read your posts because I find them always interesting and sometimes informative, even if I don't agree with your some of your opinions... On the other hand, when someone disagrees with you, you do tend to discount their perspective with a dismissive or condescending reply on occasion... Interestingly, on at least a half dozen occasions, on this or other threads, you have vowed to end the conversation because you feel there is nothing more to discuss, yet here we are... If you honestly feel you have reached your limit with me or anyone else, why continue to respond?

 

[Newboomer]

Now Iranian bad guys in bigger boat show up in the Red Sea.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/iranian-warship-alborz-enters-red-sea-tasnim-2024-01-01/

If they start something a few Tomohawks will sure end it..

 

[Hunt anything]

My memory is a little fuzzy but didn’t Iran try something back in the late 80’s and their navy payed dearly for it? Operation dragon fly or praying mantis, something like that.

If they start something a few Tomohawks will sure end it..

 

[Newboomer]

My memory is a little fuzzy but didn’t Iran try something back in the late 80’s and their navy payed dearly for it? Operation dragon fly or praying mantis, something like that.

Could be but some people never learn. Time for another application of asskick.

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

 

[mdwest]

My memory is a little fuzzy but didn’t Iran try something back in the late 80’s and their navy payed dearly for it? Operation dragon fly or praying mantis, something like that.

Yes. Praying Mantis..

Operation Praying Mantis - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Iran has a reasonable navy for a middle eastern nation.. but it is far from anything close to a naval power.. its capabilities are extremely limited..

Its largest vessels are frigates.. about half of which were built in the 1960's.. they have a couple of Kilo class russian subs (late 70's or early 80's?).. and a ton of little patrol boats and fast attack boats..

If they got sneaky.. and if our team wasnt watching closely.. they have the ability to do some damage to our fleet....

but.. it certainly wouldnt last very long.. everything remaining in the Iranian navy would be on the bottom of the persian gulf within a matter of a couple of days I am sure if they actually tried something..

 

[Doug3006]

If memory serves, Iran has one large and one small oil port. Kharg Island (and it’s oil platforms) is the “big” one. Shutting down their economy shouldn’t be hard.

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

My memory is a little fuzzy but didn’t Iran try something back in the late 80’s and their navy payed dearly for it? Operation dragon fly or praying mantis, something like that.

Praying Mantis.

USN Samuel B Roberts hit an Iranian mine. The US military could laterally monitor the entire Persian Gulf. When Iranian navy ships left their port, they paid the price.

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

If memory serves, Iran has one large and one small oil port. Kharg Island (and it’s oil platforms) is the “big” one. Shutting down their economy shouldn’t be hard.

It would be very, very easy to hit a bunch of Iran's oil and gas producing facilities with very little risk of collateral damage. The problem is, Europe would take the hit too. Russian gas has been eliminated from going to Europe, so they really depend on natural gas from Iran and Qatar.

 

[Altitude sickness]

January 2016 ten U.S. sailors on a small combat craft were captured inside Irans waters. They were held hostage for a relatively short period.

Obama did not want to risk the billions of dollars he was about to give Iran. :>)))
So wouldn’t stand up strongly enough to Iran for the return of our Sailors.

It wasn’t until Obama’s team handed over the billions that were promised ahead of time. That our sailors were released.
And Only If Iran pinky swore not to develop nuclear weapons from their weapons grade plutonium.

A shameful demonstration of weakness. There are so many of these examples of why Iran feels they can fund their proxies with relative small consequences.

Today’s fireworks in Iran May be a good sign that Israel has been turned loose.

against the regime responsible for the most dead American service members since the 60s. Iran

 

[Doug3006]

It would be very, very easy to hit a bunch of Iran's oil and gas producing facilities with very little risk of collateral damage. The problem is, Europe would take the hit too. Russian gas has been eliminated from going to Europe, so they really depend on natural gas from Iran and Qatar.

As mentioned many times in this blog, oil is a global commodity. A reduct in supply is felt worldwide. But according to this source, over 90% of Iran‘s oil goes to China.

https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/media/6750

 

[PARA45]

 

[steve white]

It doesn't seem that long ago that Iranians had US sailors on their knees with their hands raised behind their heads. Why in h@#%l they complied with that is unfathomable and still makes me mad.

 

[Red Leg]

honestly don't necessarily disagree with any of the assertions you have made here...

Good. That would seem to be progress.

And yes, I believe that each and every US taxpayer is entitled to the same accountability for every dollar of foreign aid this country spends regardless of who it is sent to or why

I agree. It already is. If you want different accounting that is done for every other military sale or support effort that we have done since WWII, then I urge you to propose that methodology to your congressman.

It is why I bring up Israel, which has received enormous support with zero complaints or concerns from the same people who complain loudest about Ukraine.

this an opinion or do you actually have a record of him saying that? The only thing that I have heard him say is that he could end the war in 24 hours which is obviously hyperbolic, but effectively powerful political rhetoric...

If he does not intend to end support then he really should let Marjorie Taylor Greene and Matt Gaetz in on it. He typically either responds with either the 24 hour nonsense or with a quote like the following in May.

“We’re giving away so much equipment, we don’t have ammunition for ourselves right now,” he said. “We don’t have ammunition for ourselves we’re giving away so much."

Powerfully effective rhetoric? To me it makes him sound at best naïve and at worst an imbecilic. The US has deep stockpiles of the munitions that will be needed against our other near peer competitor China. If you disagree with my perception of his foreign policy acumen, then fine do so.

I accused you of having TDS because you have stated many times your personal disdain for Trump's character which I believe has caused you to disregard the facts about his policies and accomplishments. That, by definition is TDS...

What I believe is that Donald Trump is indeed a person with fatal character flaws. He lies to his own constituents - whether draining the swamp, Mexico will pay for the wall, etc, etc. He called for demonstrations on the day of the election certification. This was not some spontaneous eruption. He clearly hoped to disrupt that process. To what end, I suspect the Republic is fortunate not to have found out. So in spite of what he accomplished with respect to deregulation, and had begun to accomplish with respect to limiting immigration, I do not believe he is worth the risk. As I said before, if I wouldn't hire him to work for me, then why would I ever hire him to be my president?

You are absolutely free to disagree with my assessment of him. And if you want to continue to throw TDS around as some sort of rebuttal, then fine. I'll treat it with the respect it is due.

If he is such a detestable choice, why is he dominating the field?

First of all, I said people, not republicans. If the nominee only garners republican votes in November we lose by one of the largest landslides since Reagan. The most recent WSJ poll was the most telling. Halley beats Biden by 17 and Trump wins by 4. He may dominate the republican field, but he will have to do a lot more with a lot more voters to win the election.

However, when it comes to accessing policy, these are not black and white issues with only one correct answer... Everyone here who has their own experience and education to draw from is entitled to have their own informed opinion from their own personal prospective... I occasionally accuse you of arrogance only because you sometimes conflate fact with opinion however informed that opinion may be...

With that, I will absolutely disagree. I am always careful to state when something is an opinion. I use the terms, "in my opinion", "I believe", "I think" etc. Those opinions are indeed often conclusions drawn from facts or from observations. It is why I post many of the short clips to illustrate suppositions or conclusions about Ukrainian or Russian military performance. You or anyone else is free to offer any other conclusion you wish from those.

What I won't do is let a ridiculous observation go uncontested, particularly when it is directed about something I posted.

I get it. This thread would be a much more enjoyable space if it were reserved purely for bashing the current administration, woke culture, and the younger generations. But if I wasn't here, how would any of you people learn?

If you honestly feel you have reached your limit with me or anyone else, why continue to respond?

You are correct. That, I should learn. But, it is simple Southern courtesy. You wrote a long response specifically to something I posted. That then nags at me because it would be rude not to respond.

 

[Doug3006]

It doesn't seem that long ago that Iranians had US sailors on their knees with their hands raised behind their heads. Why in h@#%l they complied with that is unfathomable and still makes me mad.

Are you mad that the sailors complied with their captor’s orders to kneel and put their hands behind their heads? Prisoners generally comply or are shot. I’m not mad at the sailors. I’m still mad that we didn’t sink their decrepit navy in retaliation.