Politics

[BSO Dave]

The Nationwide policy for active shooters as far as Local Law Enforcement goes has not been to take up a defensive position since the 90s, but to move towards the last known location of gunshots if there’s currently not any to be heard. If you can still hear gunshots then you approach the location of gunshots.

Are you a law enforcement officer? I was for 30 years... So, if you are or were, you would also acknowledge that National policy and/or recommendations are different than department-specific SOPs..

Regardless, the initial information being relayed by Peterson was that he could not pinpoint the location of the shots. He also initially stated that they could be firecrackers. He then incorrectly reported that they came from a building that was not occupied by the shooter. Based on that information, the IC made some bad decisions in opting to set up defensively rather than treat the incident as an active shooter incident.

It should be noted in an active shooter situation Law Enforcement is trained to NOT wait for backup. Even if they are all alone. It’s the really the only time in the job a LEO is trained and expected to disregard all personal safety and act as quickly as possible to stop the threat or at least give the suspect a target to engage that is not unarmed, innocent people.

All true enough, but dereliction of duty is not what Peterson was charged with. He was charged with child neglect.

Again, I'm not arguing for this guy, and I am certainly not defending his decisions. I personally think what he did is deplorable, and he will have to live with the results of his decision for the rest of his life. But charging him with felony child neglect was a reach by any measure.
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They failed that day. And more recently failed in Texas.

Agreed...

 

[Red Leg]

As usual, the Babylon Bee is spot on.

Harvard To Get Around Affirmative Action Ban By Asking You Whether You Prefer BBQ, Ranch, Or Soy Sauce

CAMBRIDGE, MA — Admissions faculty at Harvard was devastated today upon hearing the news that they could no longer use racial discrimination to turn their school into a diverse rainbow of beautiful mediocrity. Their spirits were raised, however, once they realized they could accomplish the same...

babylonbee.com

 

[Hookboy88]

Are you a law enforcement officer? I was for 30 years... So, if you are or were, you would also acknowledge that National policy and/or recommendations are different than department-specific SOPs..

Regardless, the initial information being relayed by Peterson was that he could not pinpoint the location of the shots. He also initially stated that they could be firecrackers. He then incorrectly reported that they came from a building that was not occupied by the shooter. Based on that information, the IC made some bad decisions in opting to set up defensively rather than treat the incident as an active shooter incident.



All true enough, but dereliction of duty is not what Peterson was charged with. He was charged with child neglect.

Again, I'm not arguing for this guy, and I am certainly not defending his decisions. I personally think what he did is deplorable, and he will have to live with the results of his decision for the rest of his life. But charging him with felony child neglect is a reach by any measure.
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Agreed...

I am not accusing you of taking up for the guy but rather attacking the Incident Command that gave orders to take defensive positions. And while SOP is different from agency to agency, I think we will both agree that in an active shooter situation there is no agency with a policy to not engage immediately.

And I agree on the charges being wrong. I am sure you often hear people say that LEO have no duty to protect. That’s true to an extent. If a LEO is two miles away and a individual gets robbed that cop can not be held accountable. However a LEO can not stand by and watch a victim get robbed and not act, or they will be charged.

I believe we are in agreement that if you polled the Jury and asked if he had been charged with Dereliction of Duty if he would have been convicted they would say yes.

 

[Ray B]

Regarding the 50 year old tank designs T 55/54; I am not a student of Russian equipment, but for comparison how do these tanks compare to the US M48 & M60 tanks?

 

[Marc Ret]

Trump did good for the country. He however could have done much, much more had he:
1. Stayed off Twitter! Tweeting like an emotional teenage girl was far from "Presidential".
2. Reframed from insulting those who did not agree with him;
"I like people who don't get captured..."
"You are a nasty woman..."
3. Worked with Congress to find compromises. Fighting with Republican majority House and Senate leaders when they held both houses of Congress squandered more than I can comprehend.

Had he done the above he would still be President!

Mark, I don't disagree with you but I wonder how many times Trump being a professional grade asshole has to be rehashed? What is gained constantly pointing out the past that cannot be corrected?

Other than the occasional (often sarcastic) comment, I seldom talk politics on forums though I read quite a bit. I posted the above because I am encouraged to see the fruit being born from Trump's appointments. I was born 6 months after R v. W was decided. It has felt like a black stain my entire life and I never believed it would be overturned. I believe God does work through man, no matter how flawed they are. I see His hand in the most recent justices' appointments.

 

[BSO Dave]

I am not accusing you of taking up for the guy but rather attacking the Incident Command that gave orders to take defensive positions. And while SOP is different from agency to agency, I think we will both agree that in an active shooter situation there is no agency with a policy to not engage immediately.

Section G: If the situation turns to a barricade or hostage situation the response team will contain, isolate, communicate and wait for SWAT.

One would think you are absolutely correct in your assumption that no law enforcement agency would have such an SOP in place, but you would be mistaken.. The SOP above in bold was cut and pasted directly from BSO SOPS for Active Shooter Response that was in place at the time of the Parkland incident.

The first arriving IC defended their decision to go defensive citing the SOP above justifying that decision based on the information they had at the time that there were no shots currently being fired and the location of the shooter was unclear and may barricaded. Personally, I think this was a terrible decision, and in hindsight, a bad SOP... But the SOP did support that decision based on the information the IC had in the first 15 minutes..

Obviously, BSO's active shooter SOPs have been amended post-incident... You might also be shocked to learn that Nationally Accredited Active Shooter Training was not taught department wide at BSO until 2019 after the shooting.

I can't offer any opinion on the Uvalde, Texas shooting, because I am not familiar with their training or SOPs, but it would appear that many of the same mistakes were made based on bad policy and worse decisions from those in command...

 

[Red Leg]

Regarding the 50 year old tank designs T 55/54; I am not a student of Russian equipment, but for comparison how do these tanks compare to the US M48 & M60 tanks?

It is roughly analogous to the M48. The T54/55 had a lower silhouette and a 100mm gun. The M48 had somewhat heavier armor and 105 mm gun.

The M60's Soviet competitor was the T62. These were radically different concepts. The M60 weighed 50 tons to the T62's 36 tons. The M60's engine was quite a bit larger so power to weight ratios were very similar. The T62 had a 115mm smooth bore main gun and the M60 had a 105mm rifled gun. The smooth bore was the first tank gun to fire APFSDS rounds (sabot) and they were fired at a much higher velocity than the M60 standard armor piercing rounds. The M60 had significantly heavier armor. It was basically a wash with a slight edge to the T62.

The appearance of the T72 really pushed the US to develop a truly new main battle tank and hence, the M1 Abrams.

 

[steve white]

For all intents and purposes, Obama was a rich spoilt white kid with a black skin. His african father played no role in his upbringing. He was primarily raised by his white grandmother, a bank Vice-President. He was put through all the best education his grandmother's money could buy. Maybe some of the other students razed him about his colour, thereby creating a massive 'chip on the shoulder'. But no-one could ever claim he came from a hard done by background. If there was ever such a thing as 'white privilege', he was the beneficiary.

That depends upon whether you believe his real father was an African, and not from Chicago...

 

[Doug3006]

@Doug3006 ... Did you hear him interviewed on MSNBC (I think), complaining about how this is not a normal court and - my interpretation - how they're messing with his mojo? Come on man!

It occurred to me in reading what Red Leg posted about the dust-up between Thomas and Brown, that if we can get DeSantis in the WH and he has a chance to solidify the conservative element of the SCOTUS even more, Brown might be looking at years or - dare I hope it! - even a lifetime of office/job frustration and basically pissing in the wind. The thought of that gives me warm fuzzies.

I fully expect these latest decisions to add high-octane fuel to the lefties’ desire to pack the court. We conservatives wandered through the wilderness for decades while a liberal-leaning SC made mincemeat of the Constitution. Not once did I hear anyone on our side question the legitimacy of the Court or threaten to pack it.

 

[Tundra Tiger]

@Marc Ret ...

I totally agree with commending Trump for the current make up of the Supreme Court. I for one am very grateful.

"but I wonder how many times Trump being a professional grade asshole has to be rehashed? What is gained constantly pointing out the past that cannot be corrected?"

Um... it's not the past. He routinely continues to be a professional grade asshole, and I would argue more so since leaving the WH. He continues to open his mouth, sometimes daily, and open himself up to criticism for the things he says. I'd like to think he'll eventually change, but my guess is we'll be "rehashing" it for as long as he continues to publicly speak.

 

[Tanks]

Mark, I don't disagree with you but I wonder how many times Trump being a professional grade asshole has to be rehashed? What is gained constantly pointing out the past that cannot be corrected?

...

Well, Trump is still crying about the 2020 election. What can be gained about that except proving that he is still concentrating on the past rather than the future?

The election will be won by the candidate that people dislike the least and harping on the past does not help him win the middle which is needed to win in 2024 as his cult like base is not enough for a win.

 

[Ray B]

The election results are not correlated to Trump's behavior as much as the real problem which is the actions of the numerous adversaries. These adversaries include the DC bureaucracy, several state bureaucracies, the mainstream media, the DemonRat party leadership and its registered lemmings, the Republican party never Trump section and other groups with agendas opposed to traditional American values. It would be nice if these groups would act like something other than a spoiled 2 years old child, but I don't see that happening until the ownership of the country and government has changed and they are no longer relevant.

 

[Marc Ret]

Um... it's not the past. He routinely continues to be a professional grade asshole, and I would argue more so since leaving the WH. He continues to open his mouth, sometimes daily, and open himself up to criticism for the things he says. I'd like to think he'll eventually change, but my guess is we'll be "rehashing" it for as long as he continues to publicly speak.

Ha! This is why I seldom post on political, particularly Trump, conversations. I value my time and one can get embroiled in the back and forth without desiring to.

Read Mark's comments again, TT. It was all about the past and that was what I was addressing.

If others wish to comment on his continued antics, so be it. Other than venting, I see little benefit but each to their own.

 

[Marc Ret]

Well, Trump is still crying about the 2020 election. What can be gained about that except proving that he is still concentrating on the past rather than the future?

The election will be won by the candidate that people dislike the least and harping on the past does not help him win the middle which is needed to win in 2024 as his cult like base is not enough for a win.

Go back and read my initial post. I'm no Trump apologist.

 

[Hookboy88]

Section G: If the situation turns to a barricade or hostage situation the response team will contain, isolate, communicate and wait for SWAT.

One would think you are absolutely correct in your assumption that no law enforcement agency would have such an SOP in place, but you would be mistaken.. The SOP above in bold was cut and pasted directly from BSO SOPS for Active Shooter Response that was in place at the time of the Parkland incident.

The first arriving IC defended their decision to go defensive citing the SOP above justifying that decision based on the information they had at the time that there were no shots currently being fired and the location of the shooter was unclear and may barricaded. Personally, I think this was a terrible decision, and in hindsight, a bad SOP... But the SOP did support that decision based on the information the IC had in the first 15 minutes..

Obviously, BSO's active shooter SOPs have been amended post-incident... You might also be shocked to learn that Nationally Accredited Active Shooter Training was not taught department wide at BSO until 2019 after the shooting.

I can't offer any opinion on the Uvalde, Texas shooting, because I am not familiar with their training or SOPs, but it would appear that many of the same mistakes were made based on bad policy and worse decisions from those in command...

Yes Sir, I think a lot of agencies have a policy in place to surround for a hostage situation. Which I think only makes sense. To start negotiations, and make all efforts to keep the hostages safe.

I also, like you, in this particular situation think treating it like a hostage situation instead of an active shooter was a horrible decision. I also understand we are typing about it after it already happened in the comfort of our own home. We are not there in person having to make decisions with what information is giving to us at the time, but I feel me and you both would have handled things differently than IC. And as far as the SRO goes, shame on him. That’s on his conscious for the rest of his life.

And to be honest I am very shocked to learn that they lacked that training, but I would ASSUME that it was taught in the Academy.

 

[Scott CWO]

Here is some context on this that was only covered very minimally in the news... Disclaimer: I don't know Peterson personally, and I have no knowledge as to his character...

This former deputy was charged with multiple counts of felony child neglect for his decision to lock down and take a defensive position instead of offensively pursuing the shooter. Unfortunately, whatever anyone thinks of his decisions or his character, his actions were in line with the SOPs that were in place at the time. As ridiculous as this sounds, at the time, BSO, along with many law enforcement agencies country-wide had SOPs in place that required an initial defensive response by arriving officers in suspected mass shooting incidents...

Peterson was not alone in his decision to take up defensive positions. The first arriving deputies were also initially ordered by the incident commander to lock down the property, set a perimeter, and take defensive positions until the shooter's location could be determined... From the conversations I had with a couple of former collogues who were on scene, there was a critical failure of leadership by the IC, and lots of aggressive vocal dissent from deputies on scene over the order to stand down. Unfortunately, it took this Parkland incident for law enforcement agencies across the country to reevaluate their mass shooter response which now places emphasis on rapid entry and offensive engagement of the shooter(s).

Here's the part of the story that you didn't hear in the news...

Two police officers from Miramar PD (another Broward County PD not part of BSO) who were conducting SWAT training in a nearby BSO training facility and heard the dispatch call out on their radios. They took it upon themselves to race to the school and upon arrival they were ordered to stand down by the BSO incident commander on scene. They both elected to ignore that order, geared up, and made offensive entry into the school. Several BSO deputies subsequently followed... Unfortunately, the damage was done by the time they made entry and the shooter had already left the property.

Here's the best part... You would think the Miramar and BSO officers who disobeyed the stand down order would be lauded as heroes right? Nope... Both the Miramar and BSO Police Chiefs in their infinite wisdom, suspended them for disobeying orders and protocol. They were later reinstated without apology and without reward...

In regard to Peterson and the jury's acquittal of all charges, I would offer this... As much as this event provokes such raw emotion and so many people were destroyed by this terrible tragedy, Peterson was charged as a scapegoat... These charges were an attempt by the prosecutor's office to divert responsibility of the failing of multiple law enforcement agencies including BSO and the FBI. The BSO Sheriff should have resigned or been fired for the overall response. The jury, who obviously felt a great pressure to indict this guy, unanimously found that although Peterson's actions were certainly questionable, no actual crime was committed.

I heard the legal issue at hand was that in order to be convicted of these specific charges, he had to be designated as a “caregiver” and the defense attorneys argued that a school resource officer is not specifically designated as a “caregiver.”

 

[John Wasmuth]

The Nationwide policy for active shooters as far as Local Law Enforcement goes has not been to take up a defensive position since the 90s, but to move towards the last known location of gunshots if there’s currently not any to be heard. If you can still hear gunshots then you approach the location of gunshots.

It should be noted in an active shooter situation Law Enforcement is trained to NOT wait for backup. Even if they are all alone. It’s the really the only time in the job a LEO is trained and expected to disregard all personal safety and act as quickly as possible to stop the threat or at least give the suspect a target to engage that is not unarmed, innocent people.

They failed that day. And more recently failed in Texas.

It all changed after Columbine as far as active shooters go. The ass hats 90 miles south of my house F’d up completely in Uvalde just as bad as Parkland. Shameful conduct.

 

[Brent in Az]

Thank you to SCOTUS for giving Biden and his flying monkey's a bad week.

 

[Scott CWO]

 

[John Wasmuth]

Section G: If the situation turns to a barricade or hostage situation the response team will contain, isolate, communicate and wait for SWAT.

One would think you are absolutely correct in your assumption that no law enforcement agency would have such an SOP in place, but you would be mistaken.. The SOP above in bold was cut and pasted directly from BSO SOPS for Active Shooter Response that was in place at the time of the Parkland incident.

The first arriving IC defended their decision to go defensive citing the SOP above justifying that decision based on the information they had at the time that there were no shots currently being fired and the location of the shooter was unclear and may barricaded. Personally, I think this was a terrible decision, and in hindsight, a bad SOP... But the SOP did support that decision based on the information the IC had in the first 15 minutes..

Obviously, BSO's active shooter SOPs have been amended post-incident... You might also be shocked to learn that Nationally Accredited Active Shooter Training was not taught department wide at BSO until 2019 after the shooting.

I can't offer any opinion on the Uvalde, Texas shooting, because I am not familiar with their training or SOPs, but it would appear that many of the same mistakes were made based on bad policy and worse decisions from those in command...

You can pretty much make bank on the fact that active shooter training is required by the state of Texas for all peace officers. They F’d up completely at Uvalde. Period.