Options for 35 Whelen-9.3x62

[DrBob]

@Dr Bob
Load the Whelen with 280gn A Frames that have a better sd than a
@DrBob
Load the Whelen with 280 gn swift A Frames with a better sd than the 300 .375 and 286gn 9.3 or the Woodleigh hydro and you should get all the penetration you need without deformation based on your criteria. The Hydro drills a hole in a straight line for a long way.
Bob

The Hydro may be the best all around bullet design subbing in for softs as well as solids... with the appropriate speed.

 

[frhunter13]

When I was doing extensive shooting for my article in Man Magnum years ago dealing with upgrading the performance of the 458 Win to Lott level, I had the opportunity to dig up many of the bullets from the berm... with good old dirt being an very tough material. The Barnes monolithic and A-frames held up the best with bonded cores coming in next. The old Hornady and the Woodleighs being turned inside out ... even the solids. As an example, I was driving a 450 grain bullet at close to 2500 fps at muzzle. Heavy and slow is a good formula for regular bullet designs. Barnes TSX bullets have given the Weatherby calibers real value and fulfilling the hype about the rounds. I shot my down and dead buff with a 450 gr TSX frontal at 10 feet.... the bullet plowing though 4 feet of muscle and paunch ..only losing one petal with the rest overly bent back but still there. Again... modern bullets provide a wider range of performance.

Diverging to the 458 Lott. Mine put a 480g Peregrine V2 solid through both shoulders and the heart and would have killed another in-line Buff if one had been standing there. 60 yard shot muzzle 2238 fps. Some wasted power there, from a gun that was designed before the modern bullets were available. I am quite sure the same shot with a .358 300g comparable solid MZ 2300fps from a 35 Whelen would have done the same job.
We even priced production run of a .358 Peregrine V2 for an experimental 35 Whelen Cape Buffalo hunt, but I got in a very bad accident at the wrong time and we never did it. That experiment should be done.

 

[DrBob]

Diverging to the 458 Lott. Mine put a 480g Peregrine V2 solid through both shoulders and the heart and would have killed another in-line Buff if one had been standing there. 60 yard shot muzzle 2238 fps. Some wasted power there, from a gun that was designed before the modern bullets were available. I am quite sure the same shot with a .358 300g comparable solid MZ 2300fps from a 35 Whelen would have done the same job.
We even priced production run of a .358 Peregrine V2 for an experimental 35 Whelen Cape Buffalo hunt, but I got in a very bad accident at the wrong time and we never did it. That experiment should be done.

Thinking about Kevin Robertson's experience with a hunter using solids in the 416 Weatherby and the bullet passing through 3 Cape Buffalo to hit a fourth. Penetration doesn't mean much by itself. For my buff on that hunt, location, location and location plus the higher velocity of the Barnes flat meplat solid saved my bacon. There needs to be a new criteria that takes into account total killing/stopping capability. The old formula of caliber, weight and velocity still has value. The Woodleigh Hydro and the flat meplat bullets create a larger wound cavity both temporary and crush. On the lower side, a hunt with a 300 Weatherby using 135 grain TSX at over 3500 fps muzzle was beyond belief on Kudu. Still, as Robetson pointed out... without a large crush cavity, a buffs heart can semi-seal and not bleed out quickly.

A max'ed out 35 Whelen would be a great test bed.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Thinking about Kevin Robertson's experience with a hunter using solids in the 416 Weatherby and the bullet passing through 3 Cape Buffalo to hit a fourth. Penetration doesn't mean much by itself. For my buff on that hunt, location, location and location plus the higher velocity of the Barnes flat meplat solid saved my bacon. There needs to be a new criteria that takes into account total killing/stopping capability. The old formula of caliber, weight and velocity still has value. The Woodleigh Hydro and the flat meplat bullets create a larger wound cavity both temporary and crush. On the lower side, a hunt with a 300 Weatherby using 135 grain TSX at over 3500 fps muzzle was beyond belief on Kudu. Still, as Robetson pointed out... without a large crush cavity, a buffs heart can semi-seal and not bleed out quickly.

A max'ed out 35 Whelen would be a great test bed.

@DrBob
Define a mixed out Whelen.
In my Whelen I get 2,900fps with the 225gn Woodleigh PPSP. According to Woodleigh load data is interchangeable between the hydro and the PPSP. I wouldn't take this as gospel. A 225gn hydro at say 2,850fps should combine the the two parameters you describe of a large wound cavity both temporary and crush. Combine this with the faster twist of a 1:12 barrel to give higher centrifugal rotation should do even more damage.
That's why a 55gn bullet started at the same velocity will do more damage in a 1:9 twist than the standard 1:12 twist.
Bob

 

[DrBob]

@DrBob
Define a mixed out Whelen.
In my Whelen I get 2,900fps with the 225gn Woodleigh PPSP. According to Woodleigh load data is interchangeable between the hydro and the PPSP. I wouldn't take this as gospel. A 225gn hydro at say 2,850fps should combine the the two parameters you describe of a large wound cavity both temporary and crush. Combine this with the faster twist of a 1:12 barrel to give higher centrifugal rotation should do even more damage.
That's why a 55gn bullet started at the same velocity will do more damage in a 1:9 twist than the standard 1:12 twist.
Bob

Put the Whelen through its paces with the best premium brass, powder and bullets. True... over spinning the 55 gr or any bullet designed to tumble and one gets a straight hole. That is why the 1 in 7 twist M-4/16 needs a heavier bullet.

 

[frhunter13]

Thinking about Kevin Robertson's experience with a hunter using solids in the 416 Weatherby and the bullet passing through 3 Cape Buffalo to hit a fourth. Penetration doesn't mean much by itself. For my buff on that hunt, location, location and location plus the higher velocity of the Barnes flat meplat solid saved my bacon. There needs to be a new criteria that takes into account total killing/stopping capability. The old formula of caliber, weight and velocity still has value. The Woodleigh Hydro and the flat meplat bullets create a larger wound cavity both temporary and crush. On the lower side, a hunt with a 300 Weatherby using 135 grain TSX at over 3500 fps muzzle was beyond belief on Kudu. Still, as Robetson pointed out... without a large crush cavity, a buffs heart can semi-seal and not bleed out quickly.

A max'ed out 35 Whelen would be a great test bed.

I was fortunate. After I downed the big Buff, several more stood up in the tall grass. They took one look at me and the two others with big guns and decided to run. Whew. I never even saw the one hiding under a tree. He had me to rights, but did not charge for some reason when I put an insurance shot into my Buffs spine. One of the PHs did see him and was watching with his $12,000 500 Nitro Express double. He didn’t tell me until the stalker had moved off. Now that is a boss gun! Heavy set guy. Would launch me into never never land. The Lott is bad enough. Don need no Weatherby overkillers either. If a 35 Whelen works, its a much more controllable gun.

 

[DrBob]

I was fortunate. After I downed the big Buff, several more stood up in the tall grass. They took one look at me and the two others with big guns and decided to run. Whew. I never even saw the one hiding under a tree. He had me to rights, but did not charge for some reason when I put an insurance shot into my Buffs spine. One of the PHs did see him and was watching with his $12,000 500 Nitro Express double. He didn’t tell me until the stalker had moved off. Now that is a boss gun! Heavy set guy. Would launch me into never never land. The Lott is bad enough. Don need no Weatherby overkillers either. If a 35 Whelen works, its a much more controllable gun.

The old adage holds true.... do your hunting before you pull the trigger. While the thrill of stalking a buff is electric, the relief of getting the hunt down without need for sorting it out is immense. My dugga boy was playing defense at the back of the herd and so no other buff was around. We have been talking killing power with the 35 or the 9.3, but as for stopping power that is another all together topic. We are at the fringe of stopping power.... even the 375 H&H is a little light. My two rifles were a 375 and the 458 XL. The former was for plains and later for the Buff. I am planning on using my 470 Nitro next time, and bringing the 9.3 for plains with 250 grain ammo.

 

[frhunter13]

The old adage holds true.... do your hunting before you pull the trigger. While the thrill of stalking a buff is electric, the relief of getting the hunt down without need for sorting it out is immense. My dugga boy was playing defense at the back of the herd and so no other buff was around. We have been talking killing power with the 35 or the 9.3, but as for stopping power that is another all together topic. We are at the fringe of stopping power.... even the 375 H&H is a little light. My two rifles were a 375 and the 458 XL. The former was for plains and later for the Buff. I am planning on using my 470 Nitro next time, and bringing the 9.3 for plains with 250 grain ammo.

In that case never hunt in high grass and thickets? Oh if every thing were perfect is it really hunting? This dugga boy was standing in a dirt rub by himself with no other buff in sight, heh. Could see him through bush after tracking him for a mile or so. Shot through bush. DRT. Other buffs complete surprise laying in adjacent grass field. Not a shot for the Whelen or 9.3 really. Buff lurking in cover under tree seen by only one PH. What do you mean by planning??

Whelen would be fine for plains game, even Lion and Leopard where legal. 9.3 also. In fact, I am told the 35 Whelen has been used in Africa for plains game with success. Might bring mine next year, and my 416 Ruger African.

 

[DrBob]

In that case never hunt in high grass and thickets? Oh if every thing were perfect is it really hunting? This dugga boy was standing in a dirt rub by himself with no other buff in sight, heh. Could see him through bush after tracking him for a mile or so. Shot through bush. DRT. Other buffs complete surprise laying in adjacent grass field. Not a shot for the Whelen or 9.3 really. Buff lurking in cover under tree seen by only one PH. What do you mean by planning??

Whelen would be fine for plains game, even Lion and Leopard where legal. 9.3 also. In fact, I am told the 35 Whelen has been used in Africa for plains game with success. Might bring mine next year, and my 416 Ruger African.

My next hunt has been pushed back many times after its originally scheduled 2014 time frame. Series of health issues that are now behind me. Some things one doesn't want to happen out in the bush. Went after tuskless female which means getting into the herd. We found ourselves in the middle of the herd as the elephant grass was VERY tall.... as in surrounded. Touch and go. Did have two earlier charges by tuskless... one a bluff and the other serious as she was protecting both an older and brand new calf. We were glassing the herd when she turned and saw us.... instant charge. We had to scramble back into the Hilux , the PH just got the truck going.... very much like in the movie Jurassic Park. As for shooting through stuff.... I had a bushbuck dead to rights... squeezed off the 375 H&H and ... nothing... the buck ran away. The PH and I went back to my shooting position and saw a little bright something ahead.... turned out to be a small branch I had clipped.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

The old adage holds true.... do your hunting before you pull the trigger. While the thrill of stalking a buff is electric, the relief of getting the hunt down without need for sorting it out is immense. My dugga boy was playing defense at the back of the herd and so no other buff was around. We have been talking killing power with the 35 or the 9.3, but as for stopping power that is another all together topic. We are at the fringe of stopping power.... even the 375 H&H is a little light. My two rifles were a 375 and the 458 XL. The former was for plains and later for the Buff. I am planning on using my 470 Nitro next time, and bringing the 9.3 for plains with 250 grain ammo.

@DrBob
While I have every confidence in the Whelen being able to kill a cape buffalo it would NOT be my choice in a charge situation. I would want something with a lot more power in that situation.
That being said my mate Ted Mitchell was charged by a water buffalo after shooting another. The one he shot whent straight down but his mate took objection to him. Fortunately Ted still had the rifle shouldered and had reloaded after the shot. By the time he realised what what was happening the buff was only about 10 to 15 yards away. One shot to the head and down it went fortunately. It came to a halt basically at his feet. All this happened in less time than it took me to type this.

Rifle used in this case was Ted's favourite 35 Mitchell Express using 220gn Atomic 29s. This has a bit less power than the Whelen but not by much.
Bob

 

[frhunter13]

Shot through a gap in the bush, luckily. 480 g solid flat head might have blown through something but I will never know. Put a golf ball sized blooded hole through center of his heart. I get the health issues. Me too.

 

[John Wasmuth]

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[Hunter-Habib]

9.3x62mm Mauser rifles are built by:
- Mauser (control round feed)
- Zastava (control round feed)
- Voere (control round feed)
- Sauer (push feed)
- Verney Carron (push feed)
- Steyr (push feed)
- Sako (push feed)
- Chapuis (push feed)
- Merkel (push feed)
- Kreighoff (push feed)
- Blaser (push feed)

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

9.3x62mm Mauser rifles are built by:
- Mauser (control round feed)
- Zastava (control round feed)
- Voere (control round feed)
- Sauer (push feed)
- Verney Carron (push feed)
- Steyr (push feed)
- Sako (push feed)
- Chapuis (push feed)
- Merkel (push feed)
- Kreighoff (push feed)
- Blaser (push feed)

@Hunter Habib
35 Whelen built by
CVA, single shot.
Were built by
Ruger, single shot and bolt action CRF
Remington push feed bolt action and pump action
Various custom made.
Poor in comparison to the 9.3x62 but the Whelen still has a loyal following despite the lack of factory rifles.
The 35 Whelen is every bit as good as the 9.3x62 and in some cases better with bullets of the same SD.

It's just a crying shame more people don't recognise the benefits of the Whelen over some of the lesser but more common rounds like the 338WM and 300WM.
Bob

 

[Hunter-Habib]

@Hunter Habib
35 Whelen built by
CVA, single shot.
Were built by
Ruger, single shot and bolt action CRF
Remington push feed bolt action and pump action
Various custom made.
Poor in comparison to the 9.3x62 but the Whelen still has a loyal following despite the lack of factory rifles.
The 35 Whelen is every bit as good as the 9.3x62 and in some cases better with bullets of the same SD.

It's just a crying shame more people don't recognise the benefits of the Whelen over some of the lesser but more common rounds like the 338WM and 300WM.
Bob

No doubt, Bobby. But I have only personally taken one game animal with a .35 Whelen in my life till now- a bull elk. Rifle was a Ruger bolt action. Ammunition was 250Gr Nosler Partitions. It was a superbly accurate rifle and managed to fell the elk with a single double lung shot. I happened to think quite highly of it. Maybe if I got to use .35 Whelen rifles more in my life, I’d prefer the caliber to the 9.3x62mm Mauser or the .338 Winchester Magnum.

 

[frhunter13]

When in SA we stopped in a wonderful hunting shop with a rifle section. They had a gorgeous Musgrave in 9.3x62. Unfortunately it had been sold already when I saw it. It was superbly balanced and had fabulous wood. A lady had spoken for it the day before but was waiting for paperwork. I never found out what would be required to buy it as a US American and bring it back with me. None of the other rifles in that shop spoke to me like that one
did. I did get a book that showed almost all African game and several best aim points for each. Quite valuable information. No lung shots anywhere in it!

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

No doubt, Bobby. But I have only personally taken one game animal with a .35 Whelen in my life till now- a bull elk. Rifle was a Ruger bolt action. Ammunition was 250Gr Nosler Partitions. It was a superbly accurate rifle and managed to fell the elk with a single double lung shot. I happened to think quite highly of it. Maybe if I got to use .35 Whelen rifles more in my life, I’d prefer the caliber to the 9.3x62mm Mauser or the .338 Winchester Magnum.

@Hunter Habib
I can assure you the Whelen loaded properly leaves nothing to be desired. Factory ammo is kept rather sedate but loaded to its potential it a different kettle of fish.
225gn @ 2,900fps
250gr @ 2,700fps
275gn @almost 2,600fps
310gn @ up to 2,455 fps
These loads put the Whelen into a whole new game.
The 35 Whelen is a handloaders dream.
Bob

 

[frhunter13]

I run 225g TSXFB at 2700 fps by chrony at ten feet with 59g of RE15C. COAL 3.25. Also by chronograph at ten feet 250g Speer SPFB bond at 2720 fps COAL 3.29 using 59g BLC2. Also using 57g RE17, 275g Woodleigh gets 2440 fps by chrony 3.28 COAL. 310 Woodleigh gets 2340 fps with 55.7g RE17 3.28 COAL. These figure show the standard 35 Whelen can match the 9.3 with a slightly smaller diameter bullet and which will get BETTER penetration for the same weight bullet. Perhaps the main reason the 35 Whelen misses the line of approved dangerous game cartridges in SA is actually discrimination. Especially since the AI version of the Whelen can top these velocities by 100 fps. The AI conversion is an easy one to make as well. Then simply fire form the cases.

 

[sestoppelman]

I run 225g TSXFB at 2700 fps by chrony at ten feet with 59g of RE15C. COAL 3.25. Also by chronograph at ten feet 250g Speer SPFB bond at 2720 fps COAL 3.29 using 59g BLC2. Also using 57g RE17, 275g Woodleigh gets 2440 fps by chrony 3.28 COAL. 310 Woodleigh gets 2340 fps with 55.7g RE17 3.28 COAL. These figure show the standard 35 Whelen can match the 9.3 with a slightly smaller diameter bullet and which will get BETTER penetration for the same weight bullet. Perhaps the main reason the 35 Whelen misses the line of approved dangerous game cartridges in SA is actually discrimination. Especially since the AI version of the Whelen can top these velocities by 100 fps. The AI conversion is an easy one to make as well. Then simply fire form the cases.

AI version? Oh please! We dont need no stinking AI version!! Just need some Uncle Bob Whelen sauce, now we're talking WHELEN time!! Yeeehaaaaaaaaa!!

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I run 225g TSXFB at 2700 fps by chrony at ten feet with 59g of RE15C. COAL 3.25. Also by chronograph at ten feet 250g Speer SPFB bond at 2720 fps COAL 3.29 using 59g BLC2. Also using 57g RE17, 275g Woodleigh gets 2440 fps by chrony 3.28 COAL. 310 Woodleigh gets 2340 fps with 55.7g RE17 3.28 COAL. These figure show the standard 35 Whelen can match the 9.3 with a slightly smaller diameter bullet and which will get BETTER penetration for the same weight bullet. Perhaps the main reason the 35 Whelen misses the line of approved dangerous game cartridges in SA is actually discrimination. Especially since the AI version of the Whelen can top these velocities by 100 fps. The AI conversion is an easy one to make as well. Then simply fire form the cases.

@frhunter13
Te AI Whelen is a pain in the arse and a waste of good projectiles when fire forming. For the slight gain in performance it is not worth the hassle. I have the standard and the AI and the standard when loaded properly is fine.
I load the 220gn Atomic 29s (similar to the TSX) at just under 2,900fps chronoed 12 feet from the muzzle. Just have to find something bigger than fallow deer to try it on.

Why do you load to such a short overall length. The standard COAL is 3.34". I can load to 3.4" OAL..
The Whelen has a fairly long throat so unless you have short mah long throat syndrome I don't understand the short lenght.
Load out longer enables you to put more COAL on the fire and is usually more accurate.
Bob