Opinions on the middle rifle

[Elton]

Well after some debating I have decided to rethink my Africa strategy. While I do love the 460, what I have always wanted was to hunt with a double. Therefore, I am about to post a few rifles in the classifieds and I think I will see if I can generate enough funds for a proper double rifle.
So as soon as I wrap up this little photo shoot in gonna start posting and hopefully I can gather enough of a base to add a little cash to it and get what I want.

I take very little credit in steering the ship in the other direction but i am excited for your double as one day i too hope to have one. Keep us updated on the double journey.

 

[Elton]

When you do acquire the double and come to Africa. Get yourself a proper pair of "Vellies" to hunt in. Being from Africa it is as much a part of Africa as the game we have to offer. So to round off the full experience of hunting with a double you have to wear "Vellies"

For those who don't know. Its a Bushveld shoe worn by us locals for everything from church to work to hunting. Nothing more comfortable.

 

[Backyardsniper]

Will do. I just finished putting some up for sale and I think I will look around and see what else I can find. At least with a double they hold thier value and if I change my mind later i can make somebody else a good deal on thier first double.

 

[Backyardsniper]

I will look into it. Ha ha. I did just purchase some Courtney's and for what they cost I feel like I should make sure I get plenty of use out of them.

 

[rookhawk]

I thought the ballistics of the 450/400 and the 404 Jeffery were the same. With the 450/400 being used in a double rifle and the 404 Jeffery is a bolt action.

@Shootist43 You've got the score figured out. There are many rimmed/rimmless twins in this world.

7x57 / 7x57r
7x64 / 7x65r
450-400 / .404 Jefferey
375H&H and 375HH Flanged
318WR / 318 Flanged
Most Rigby calibers and a rimmed "Rigby Number 2"

The list gets very long but here is the really important part. When doubles were born, they were using either blackpowder or they were using stranded cordite loads. The load data can be viewed to this day but it references 1926 ICI and 1921 Kynoch load data with pressures and velocities. Add to that, the proof barrels were 28" so the regulating load was never witnessed in a real-world 24-26" barrel. Compound that by the fact the original load data all lied favorably by 35fps to 75fps.

Now that we understand the lies and omissions of the original data, imagine a 1921 pair of rifles, one 450-400 3" and the other 404 Jeffery. Even if both were loaded the same in that moment (semi-lethargic) the 404 was a magazine rifle cartridge so they could cheat at later dates by giving it a bit more oomph, or a larger bullet, or a change of powder to obtain more zip. The double rifle was stranded, stuck, ummovably damned to the original regulation load because that ammo was used and the regulating wedge of the barrels was adjusted until close to perfect. Any attempt at a later date to change powders, charge weight, bullet weight, or other "hotrodding" of the rimmed cartridge would have ended in futility. So over time, we've seen the rimless cartridges evolve into formidable, highly efficient weapons with better components whereas the rimmed versions had to stay just as they were for a century.

Today, they no longer match each other whatsoever. Even more advancements (e.g. 404 Jeffery 450gr bullets zipping along while producing nearly 60lbs of felt recoil rather than the original 38-42lbs) have made the schism between rimmed and rimless even more apparent.

The only exceptions to this are a problem in and of themselves. You can find super over-powered modern double rimmed ammo out there that his wholly unusable in vintage doubles. You can order a brand new custom double rifle regulated for this way-over-the-top rimmed ammo. The problem is, no other ammo is likely to regulate in that double and you will struggle to find a regulating load if your hotrod factory rimmed ammo manufacturer changes their recipe or discontinues the product. Examples of this disaster occurring include 1990s Federal changing their load, Wolfgang Romey in Germany, and others.

So what's someone to do with all this data? Buy a larger double rifle caliber than you think you need in rimless equivelant. Handload for your double rifle to see if you can get another powder and bullet to regulate as well.

In my real-world example, I have a Heym 470 Nitro made in 1999. It will flawlessly regulate using 107gr of IMR4831 that is a hell of a potent load. (ouch) OR it will load to regulation with a near perfect-copy of the original velociites from 1921 using IMR3031, a near perfect reproduction of the Stranded Cordite load a century ago but using only about 77gr of powder. (hugs and kisses loads) So do I want to get beat to hell by my heym approaching weatherby type recoils, or do I want a mild original load that gets me the same recoil as a standard .458 Win mag, about 58lbs? I want the mild, manageable load. I'm damned lucky I have a choice, most people with doubles don't get two choices by stroke of luck, they get what they get with the one load that works with a single powder. That is very unfortunate if it happens to be a 1921-era 450-400 3" regulating load and they want to kill an elephant because that just isn't optimal, yet a brand new .404Jeff magazine rifle will be more than sufficient.

Hopefully my long response sheds light on the similarities and differences of Rimmed versus Rimless twins and why they are different.

 

[rookhawk]

I will look into it. Ha ha. I did just purchase some Courtney's and for what they cost I feel like I should make sure I get plenty of use out of them.

Your new Courteneys will prove to be the cheapest pair of footwear you own per mile traveled. You'll love them. Never succumb to the mental exercise to calculate cost by purchase price rather than by price per use divided by its useful life. You'll end up wearing Adidas and driving a Ford Festiva if you calculate with the former method.

 

[Shootist43]

Rookhawk, I and perhaps more than a few others learned something from you today. At one time I thought about purchasing a 450/400, primarily because of how much I respect and enjoy my 404 Jeffery rifles. Now, I'm glad that I didn't.

 

[ldmay375]

I find it strange how often the calibre discussion/debate with buffalo hunting comes up.

For example with pig hunting I nearly never see a similar discussion/debate about calibres unless someone is suggesting using something significantly underpowered but I don't think I have ever had a discussion with someone where the comment of a certain calibre for pig hunting is being "all you need" etc. In Australia the 308 is probably the most common and popular choice in calibre for pig hunting similar to how the 375 calibres are for buffalo hunting, however when someone mentions they use a fairly significant step up in power from the 308 for pig hunting lets say to a 300 win mag I don't think I have ever heard someone say why use a 300 win mag as a 308 is all that is needed.

Though when it comes to buffalo hunting quite often when I see the mention of a significant step up in power from the common and popular 375's to lets say even just a 416 calibre, there is nearly always a comment about how a 375 is all you need. Yes I understand once we get up into these heavy calibres recoil can sometimes become an issue and make it harder for people to shoot the heavier calibres accurately and I say "sometimes" an issue because I can actually shoot my 458 Lott just as accurately as my 375H&H and also reload my Lott quicker just because of how well the rifle fits me and how smooth the action is. So outside of being able to shoot a heavier calibre accurately I don't really understand the "all you need" discussions when it comes to calibre for buffalo, all though I do still find the discussion interesting.

Personally when it comes to hunting buffalo I will always favour the heavier calibres/cartridges if I can shoot it well. Maybe I am just looking at this differently as I do alot of DG hunting on my own? Maybe it's the "client" mentality that I'm not used to? Anyway just my 2 cents on the subject that seems to pop up quite often.

I cannot speak to the Buffalo portion.
But, “the all you need” phrase probably should be re-worded to “all I need” or “what I like” or “works well also”. I am thankful there are lot more selections of firearms than what I need, and what I like.
I am sure many would say a 30-06 is all I need for moose hunting. I certainly like using my 375’s and 416’s.
This year, I am giving serious thought to the 458 Lott. If I can get a particular bullet load worked out. It is, all I need, trajectory wise.
I agree smaller cartridges usually lead to best accuracy. Although, I see some terrible groups with .223’s and some impressive ones with the large to big bores.
Recoil wise, we all have are limits. I know that I do. Some rifles / cartridges take some time spent shooting to become comfortable with. I will not keep a rifle regardless of caliber if I actually hurts me to shoot.

I cannot grasp how a larger bore, shooting a bullet of equal performance, at a velocity that the bullet performs, same bullet impact location, is less effective on large game than a smaller bore. I do assume there is an equalization point of lethality at some point. And there is “good enough”, which is the shooter’s personal choice.

 

[Aussie_Hunter]

I cannot speak to the Buffalo portion.
But, “the all you need” phrase probably should be re-worded to “all I need” or “what I like” or “works well also”. I am thankful there are lot more selections of firearms than what I need, and what I like.
I am sure many would say a 30-06 is all I need for moose hunting. I certainly like using my 375’s and 416’s.
This year, I am giving serious thought to the 458 Lott. If I can get a particular bullet load worked out. It is, all I need, trajectory wise.
I agree smaller cartridges usually lead to best accuracy. Although, I see some terrible groups with .223’s and some impressive ones with the large to big bores.
Recoil wise, we all have are limits. I know that I do. Some rifles / cartridges take some time spent shooting to become comfortable with. I will not keep a rifle regardless of caliber if I actually hurts me to shoot.

I cannot grasp how a larger bore, shooting a bullet of equal performance, at a velocity that the bullet performs, same bullet impact location, is less effective on large game than a smaller bore. I do assume there is an equalization point of lethality at some point. And there is “good enough”, which is the shooter’s personal choice.

Very well said sir!

 

[Backyardsniper]

Well after some in depth research it appears a “good double” is simply cost prohibitive at this point. While I could get one, it would cut well into the funds that I would rather spend on trophy fees. I truly want to hunt Africa with a double, but not to the point that I want to buy a double and go to Africa and not be able to afford to shoot the things I want. So, not this safari, but someday. Perhaps after this trip I will make it a point to get one for the next trip. On a brighter note I have sold one rifle and I have decided that if I can’t have a double I will have a 416 rigby. While not the romance of a double, there is still a lot of romance to hunting with a 416 rigby. I can keep my 460 also if nobody buys it and I’ll have a 375, a 416 rigby and a 460 so I should be covered for whitetail all the way up to T-Rex. I have picked up 416 dies and after putting out a thread looking for a 416 I have had several members contact me with some great rifles. So much so I am having to really do some thinking on which one to pick. Everything from AHR rifles to stock CZ, ruger RSM rifles, a Kimber and even a Dakota have been offered. Damn I love buying guns!

 

[calling4life]

Depending upon what you have to have for a double.
Wholesale hunter has Sabattis in 500 NE right now, one could call them and see about $8k or so maybe getting one into your hands. Ask them if it's extractors or ejectors, the ad noted both ways in it when I read it.

Further, Ken Owens is known to play with these if you want it regulated for something specific or played with in another way.

Just an option...

 

[Backyardsniper]

Well I couldn't swing the double rifle this time but I bought a 416 Rigby today. So I suppose that is gonna be my middle rifle. Really looking forward to shooting it. I procured a pretty sizeable amount of brass and bullets today as well so we are all set to get to the range and get started practicing with it. After several months of shooting that 460 I think the 416 should be fairly pleasant.