Opinions on the middle rifle

[Bert the Turtle]

I’ve got a 404 and a 375. Wasn’t my plan, but I broke my 404 just before a buffalo/elephant/hippo hunt and needed something left handed right away and a 375 is what I could find.

In my opinion, there is not enough difference between them to make It worth choosing both. There’s a reason the 375 is the perpetual all-around rifle. It is right in the middle and covers both ends adequately. I think the only practical reason to add anything to a 375 is to better suit the extremes. 404 is not heavier enough to be worthwhile as far as I’m concerned. If you can shoot the 460, I don’t know what real benefit there is to something in between.

 

[Backyardsniper]

I’ve got a 404 and a 375. Wasn’t my plan, but I broke my 404 just before a buffalo/elephant/hippo hunt and needed something left handed right away and a 375 is what I could find.

In my opinion, there is not enough difference between them to make It worth choosing both. There’s a reason the 375 is the perpetual all-around rifle. It is right in the middle and covers both ends adequately. I think the only practical reason to add anything to a 375 is to better suit the extremes. 404 is not heavier enough to be worthwhile as far as I’m concerned. If you can shoot the 460, I don’t know what real benefit there is to something in between.

Honestly you're probably right. I have the 375 on hand in case of a break down, and if the 460 breaks I can do anything I need with the 375. I keep an extra stock on hand for the 460 in case the wood one cracks I have a synthetic back up. I run an Aperture mounted on the picatinny rail but I have the express sight that is zeroed and can be put back on quickly and I also keep a scope in a set of QD rings zeroed for it if I need to scope it. I should probably spend the extra money on reloading supplies and practice. You know that whole saying about "beware of the man with only one gun" and all that stuff.

 

[rookhawk]

Thinking about getting another rifle in the hopefully not too distant future so I thought I would get some opinions and hear everyone's case for thier favorite mid-bore, not that I would rule out going bigger instead of mid, but for the moment let's hear about the middle size.
I have a 375 H&H and I have a 460 Wby. I can run anything from a 300gr barnes up to a 600gr in that so another rifle isn't truly necessary, but you know how this works. As a side question would Any body consider shooting a buffalo with a 300grain Barnes .458 bullet doing 3150fps? Main question though, I'm leaning towards a 416 rigby however I haven't really researched the 404 Jeffries so is there any cartridges in this class that I'm overlooking? What's your opinion on the best mid-bore cartridge out there. A real do it all, flat enough for PG but plenty of.power all the way up to big elephants?
I am really curious about that 300gr barnes load. If that bullet was suitable for buffalo that would be one wicked load. If a 375 diameter 300 grain at +/- 2450 will kill one a 300gr 458 diameter that would hold.together at 3000+fps should kill like lightning, you know like a 22-250 for buffalo. Ha Ha

@Backyardsniper I’m not sure if we are using same definitions? A medium bore is often though of anything between .35 and less than .40 caliber. 350 Rigby, 375HH, etc. Some expand that definition to include the small .40s like .404j, .416, .425WR.

You have the most perfect medium bore ever created now, the essential cornerstone of any safari is the .375HH. And you already have a beast, a 460Wthby. So what you’re missing in my opinion is your surgeon’s rifle.

7x57, 7x64, .318WR, 338-06, etc.

 

[Backyardsniper]

@Backyardsniper I’m not sure if we are using same definitions? A medium bore is often though of anything between .35 and less than .40 caliber. 350 Rigby, 375HH, etc. Some expand that definition to include the small .40s like .404j, .416, .425WR.

You have the most perfect medium bore ever created now, the essential cornerstone of any safari is the .375HH. And you already have a beast, a 460Wthby. So what you’re missing in my opinion is your surgeon’s rifle.

7x57, 7x64, .318WR, 338-06, etc.

I purchased a Sako Arctos in 30/06 for that but I have always like the BC of the 7mm bullets and I have kind of been thinking about trying a 7x57. I am going to do some pondering on that. That 318WR would also be a very interesting caliber, not sure about how difficult it is to get projectiles and the rifles that are chambered in it may well be out of my price range but I will do some research on it.

 

[Shootist43]

Backyardsniper, I too like having different caliber rifles. Currently I own a 416 Rigby, a 416 Remington Magnum, two 404 Jeffery(s) and three 375 H&H(s). Of those four calibers, I'd have to say that my favorite is the 404 Jeffery. I've never hunted dangerous game and at my age (78) and given my physical limitations probably never will. However, if by some chance I was able to do so, I think I'd take one of the 404 Jeffery(s). I used a 400 Gr Swift A Frame traveling at 2300 FPS on a large Eland in 2018. That bullet mushroomed perfectly and dropped the Eland in its' tracks.

Therefore If you are bound and determined to get a rifle somewhere between your 460 Weatherby and your 375 H&H, I recommend the 404 Jeffery without hesitation.

 

[Philip Glass]

There is a very good article in African hunting gazette written by Ndumo safaris about the 375 vs larger calibers. It was posted here as well but I cannot find it. He put his data of one shot 375 buffalo kills vs larger calibers. The 375 performed the best according to his data (for a variety of factors including being commonly scoped). I’ve met no PHs that think the 375 isn’t a perfect client rifle for buffalo. It’s only the opinion of clients that are big bore enthusiasts that a 375 isn’t enough.

I remember the article you mention. We need to find it. It was from years of safari experience.

 

[Philip Glass]

I find it strange how often the calibre discussion/debate with buffalo hunting comes up.

For example with pig hunting I nearly never see a similar discussion/debate about calibres unless someone is suggesting using something significantly underpowered but I don't think I have ever had a discussion with someone where the comment of a certain calibre for pig hunting is being "all you need" etc. In Australia the 308 is probably the most common and popular choice in calibre for pig hunting similar to how the 375 calibres are for buffalo hunting, however when someone mentions they use a fairly significant step up in power from the 308 for pig hunting lets say to a 300 win mag I don't think I have ever heard someone say why use a 300 win mag as a 308 is all that is needed.

Though when it comes to buffalo hunting quite often when I see the mention of a significant step up in power from the common and popular 375's to lets say even just a 416 calibre, there is nearly always a comment about how a 375 is all you need. Yes I understand once we get up into these heavy calibres recoil can sometimes become an issue and make it harder for people to shoot the heavier calibres accurately and I say "sometimes" an issue because I can actually shoot my 458 Lott just as accurately as my 375H&H and also reload my Lott quicker just because of how well the rifle fits me and how smooth the action is. So outside of being able to shoot a heavier calibre accurately I don't really understand the "all you need" discussions when it comes to calibre for buffalo, all though I do still find the discussion interesting.

Personally when it comes to hunting buffalo I will always favour the heavier calibres/cartridges if I can shoot it well. Maybe I am just looking at this differently as I do alot of DG hunting on my own? Maybe it's the "client" mentality that I'm not used to? Anyway just my 2 cents on the subject that seems to pop up quite often.

It is because most people simply can not accurately shoot anything bigger than .375. This is the simple truth. There is a lot of hot air in hunting circles, and yes here on AH, about how we all can shoot a 700NE with no problem!
Ask any PH and they will have scores of stories of clients who brought a gun they could not handle. This is why the discussion always comes up that .375 is enough for Buffalo.
Philip

 

[IvW]

Redleg,
I am currently thinking of upgrading double rifles and am torn between the 450/400 and the 470. I’m a young man (early 20s) and certainly have the Africa bug. I plan on hunting Africa for the rest of my life as finances allow it. That being said, if you had one double which caliber would you choose? I will likely use it for buffalo mainly, but the occasional elephant isn’t off the table.

In that case 450/400NE or 500/416 NE

 

[Aussie_Hunter]

It is because most people simply can not accurately shoot anything bigger than .375. This is the simple truth. There is a lot of hot air in hunting circles, and yes here on AH, about how we all can shoot a 700NE with no problem!
Ask any PH and they will have scores of stories of clients who brought a gun they could not handle. This is why the discussion always comes up that .375 is enough for Buffalo.
Philip

Yeah I agree that is definitely a fact and a contributing factor but still I think alot of what is being said in regards to calibre choice with buffalo hunting is based around personal preference and opinions not just facts. Not that I have an issue with it, I have my personal preferences too and as I said I will always favour those preferences.

 

[spike.t]

Redleg,
I am currently thinking of upgrading double rifles and am torn between the 450/400 and the 470. I’m a young man (early 20s) and certainly have the Africa bug. I plan on hunting Africa for the rest of my life as finances allow it. That being said, if you had one double which caliber would you choose? I will likely use it for buffalo mainly, but the occasional elephant isn’t off the table.

Could go in the middle and get a 450 NE....

 

[Aussie_Hunter]

Could go in the middle and get a 450 NE....

I'm a fan of the old school 450 3.1/4"

 

[Elton]

Why not consider an African favorite
9.3 x 62 seeing as you have "no need" for a specific caliber but rather an itch to scratch. Its different, effective for its purpose and from what i gather not so common in the US

 

[Ray B]

Apologize if the calculations are boring some as being elementary- BUT much has been written that for a particular animal an SD of this or that is required. AND the problem with that is that SD is not related to the ratio of bullet length to width. SD measures the weight per square inch of the bullets frontal area. The result is that to maintain bullet profile that is in keeping with orthodox belief- that is the bullet should be between 2.5 and 3 times longer than it's width, SD is only partially helpful in bullet choice. The description "heavy for caliber" provides a much better understanding of what the bullet should resemble.

 

[spike.t]

Why not consider an African favorite
9.3 x 62 seeing as you have "no need" for a specific caliber but rather an itch to scratch. Its different, effective for its purpose and from what i gather not so common in the US

Yup....he definitely needs one...mind you so does anyone that does not already have one.... ...or a 350 rigby....

 

[Backyardsniper]

They had one at the local gun stores years ago, before I knew what it was. It was in a CZ 550. Apparently someone had traded it I guess. I think they wanted like $600 for it. Man if I knew then what I know now. Ha ha

 

[spike.t]

I'm a fan of the old school 450 3.1/4"

I was surprised at the length of the other 450..the 450 no2...only saw one bout 10 days ago for first time...not great photo but here it is on right of a 470 NE ..

 

[Backyardsniper]

I would really like to own one of the Nitro family. I want a 470 just because but the 450/400 seems like it would be fun to shoot and could be reasonably employed as a whitetail/black bear gun

 

[Louis Toadvine]

They had one at the local gun stores years ago, before I knew what it was. It was in a CZ 550. Apparently someone had traded it I guess. I think they wanted like $600 for it. Man if I knew then what I know now. Ha ha

And now see what the used ones are going for. This auction closed last night...

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/921715868

 

[spike.t]

I would really like to own one of the Nitro family. I want a 470 just because but the 450/400 seems like it would be fun to shoot and could be reasonably employed as a whitetail/black bear gun

Go for the 450/400 then....other option is a 470 and a 9.3x74r double...covers you for everything then...

 

[spike.t]

And now see what the used ones are going for. This auction closed last night...

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/921715868

So it went for $2180...?.....