Open Sighted 45-70 in Africa

[BC.Pat]

I don't think there's any magic here, a premium bullet (AFrame or woodleigh?) , driven at appropriate speed , and reasonable pressure ( 34,000 cup?) and I would not feel undergunned. As previously stated are there better choices, probably. But I don't feel this is a overly dangerous ( as safe as buffalo is) or unethical combination (a clean kill) . And in the end we all have the privilege of choice (preferences) , that's what makes it "my buffalo " hunt. Just my 2 ¢.

 

[Jimbob]

I agree Pat, the debate starts when what an individual terms "appropriate speed" is brought up.
Some are fine with the prospect of 500gr@1800, others think the 458 Win Mag isn't fast enough, others say to drop weight with a monolithic and get more velocity.
Those who disapprove of the 45-70 for DG are just in the more velocity (and therefore energy) group.

 

[sgt_zim]

I agree Pat, the debate starts when what an individual terms "appropriate speed" is brought up.
Some are fine with the prospect of 500gr@1800, others think the 458 Win Mag isn't fast enough, others say to drop weight with a monolithic and get more velocity.
Those who disapprove of the 45-70 for DG are just in the more velocity (and therefore energy) group.

I learned an important lesson as a cop, and probably lots of ex-mil folks learned this, too: if it's stupid but it works, it isn't stupid.

 

[Jimbob]

I learned an important lesson as a cop, and probably lots of ex-mil folks learned this, too: if it's stupid but it works, it isn't stupid.

This serving mil agrees

 

[BC.Pat]

if it's stupid but it works, it isn't stupid.

That is the best definition of service (LEO/MIL) I have heard in a long time..

 

[Red Leg]

Tens of thousands of American bison have been taken with some flavor or another of black powder, cast .458/.459 (45-70, 45-90, 45-110). The ideal conditions for a .45-70 are little different than the ideal conditions for an un-scoped double, are they not? Would you take a 200-250 yd shot over iron sights with a .577 NE at a cape buffalo? I can shoot clover-leaf with my .308 all day long from 200 yards, but I'm probably not going to ever pull the trigger on a cape buffalo, even with a scoped 375 or 416, from 200-250 yards. Some guys would, I just wouldn't.

After reading Vince Lupo's accounting of his safaris (http://www.garrettcartridges.com/luposafaris.html) with a .45-70, I'm as convinced as anyone that a .45-70, with the right ammo, is more than up to the task. Lupo (or Garret Cartridges) may be completely F.O.S. for all I know, but he claims full body-length penetration of hard-cast, 540 gr Hammerheads as well as a broad-side shot from 80 yards which broke both shoulders on an old dagga boy with a 13" boss. From within 100 yards, the NE and magnum cartridges can do no better (is there a "better" than 2 broken shoulders and full body length penetration?).

I've already found a PH in Zim who is fine with me bringing a .45-70 for buffalo, and I'm sure he isn't the only one. Now, having said that, my Marlin is going to get an upgrade from either Ranger Point Precision or Brockman's before I go.

I hope this doesn't come across as snarky or anything, and if it does, you have my apologies ahead of time.

Well, it's good you have this whole cape buffalo thing all figured out. It took me a bit longer, and having to stand around a few of them, before I even began to think I knew anything about hunting them. One conclusion that I came to fairly quickly was that I would not use a marginal caliber to hunt one. This has less to do with whether or not under ideal conditions a 45-70, or in my case - a 12 bore Paradox - will kill a buffalo. But it has everything to do with the hunter's responsibility to do everything in his power to ensure his first shot at any dangerous game is a lethal one. By opting for a marginal caliber, he is already introducing an element of risk before even pulling the trigger. If a hunter fails in that primary responsibility, he puts every member of the party at very real risk. PHs and trackers are injured and killed by wounded buffalo. Those buffalo get that way by clients badly placing a first shot. On your first hunt for DG, why would you want to introduce any variable which would increase the likelihood of someone other than the buffalo ending up dead? Get a good .375 or .416. Go kill a buffalo or two. Then decide whether to play games with one with a 45/70. I am ex-military as well - and sometimes "stupid" is just not a very smart thing to do.

 

[Royal27]

Well, it's good you have this whole cape buffalo thing all figured out. It took me a bit longer, and having to stand around a few of them, before I even began to think I knew anything about hunting them. One conclusion that I came to fairly quickly was that I would not use a marginal caliber to hunt one. This has less to do with whether or not under ideal conditions a 45-70, or in my case - a 12 bore Paradox - will kill a buffalo. But it has everything to do with the hunter's responsibility to do everything in his power to ensure his first shot at any dangerous game is a lethal one. By opting for a marginal caliber, he is already introducing an element of risk before even pulling the trigger. If a hunter fails in that primary responsibility, he puts every member of the party at very real risk. PHs and trackers are injured and killed by wounded buffalo. Those buffalo get that way by clients badly placing a first shot. On your first hunt for DG, why would you want to introduce any variable which would increase the likelihood of someone other than the buffalo ending up dead? Get a good .375 or .416. Go kill a buffalo or two. Then decide whether to play games with one with a 45/70. I am ex-military as well - and sometimes "stupid" is just not a very smart thing to do.

 

[Red Leg]

View attachment 192517

You are an anarchist.

 

[Royal27]

You are an anarchist.

You just have to know how to use that lever gun and it's fine for buff.

 

[CTDolan]

You just have to know how to use that lever gun and it's fine for buff.

That's awesome!

 

[CTDolan]

Regarding the 45-70 and buff, though, best go with the one on the left (although maybe not from Hornady, according to a now infamous post of 20-some pages).

 

[edward]

Well, it's good you have this whole cape buffalo thing all figured out. It took me a bit longer, and having to stand around a few of them, before I even began to think I knew anything about hunting them. One conclusion that I came to fairly quickly was that I would not use a marginal caliber to hunt one. This has less to do with whether or not under ideal conditions a 45-70, or in my case - a 12 bore Paradox - will kill a buffalo. But it has everything to do with the hunter's responsibility to do everything in his power to ensure his first shot at any dangerous game is a lethal one. By opting for a marginal caliber, he is already introducing an element of risk before even pulling the trigger. If a hunter fails in that primary responsibility, he puts every member of the party at very real risk. PHs and trackers are injured and killed by wounded buffalo. Those buffalo get that way by clients badly placing a first shot. On your first hunt for DG, why would you want to introduce any variable which would increase the likelihood of someone other than the buffalo ending up dead? Get a good .375 or .416. Go kill a buffalo or two. Then decide whether to play games with one with a 45/70. I am ex-military as well - and sometimes "stupid" is just not a very smart thing to do.

your opinion is right on,for you,but being stupid in your opinion is fine,how ever my opinion about the 45-70 with the right bullet and shot placement is different from yours.my first bull was a one shot kill at 63 yards with my scope sighted contender in 45-70 shooting a 405 gr cor-bon penetrator.im still alive,my ph had no problem,90 secs after shot we heard the 4 death bellows,75 yards later the dead bull,bullet didnt go all the way through but was hanging out the off side.maybe the next time ill lose.

 

[Red Leg]

Edward that's fine. I am truly happy it worked out for you. I am a whole lot happier it all worked out for your PH, tracker, and scout.

 

[Cousin Bongo]

Is the 45-70 suitable for Africa? Ive seen some hot loads for it with heavy bullets. Almost like a Win Mag.Almost but not quite.But in reality it penetrates well and would seem to be a great round for cape buffalo when loaded hot. But i dont know. How is the 45-70 viewed for hunting Africa?

I've used my Greener-Martini 45-70 in South Africa a bit (NDG). I've been with friends who have used their 45-70s there also, including on buffalo (no problem - bullet placement).
Is the 45-70 suitable for Africa? The answer is: Of course, if used within its limitations - same for any cartridge.
Is it suitable for buffalo? The answer is: It depends. If loaded for weak actions, the answer is: NO. If loaded for modern Marlin lever actions and similar, the answer is: It will work, but there are more appropriate cartridges available. If loaded for Ruger No. 1 and similar, the answer is: It will work, but there are more appropriate cartridges available.
My Greener-Martini pushes 400 gr. Barnes X and 400 gr solids out its 25" barrel at well over 2,000 fps. Being a single shot, spitzer bullets are no problem and practical effective range is farther than I will shoot at game. Even so, it's not a 458 Win Mag or 458 Lott or 450 Watts. (Note that all four cartridges are the same caliber.)
If one is using a Marlin lever gun with loadings appropriate to the action strength, it will do fine on plains game. I used my Marlin with 16 1/4" barrel in Alaska when I lived/worked there in the 1980s. The 45-70 works fine on moose, bear, deer, caribou, etc. It will work fine in Africa too...within its limitations.

CB

 

[IvW]

There are better choices.

It does make a great warthog and bushpig gun though.

 

[CTDolan]

You could go buffalo hunting with a 30-06, but nobody does and there's a reason why. Just because there's a big hole in the end of the barrel doesn't mean it's good buffalo medicine. When everything goes right, the 45-70 will work just fine. When not, it'll leave any clear-minded person wishing they'd brought more. That's why you bring a real thumper, for those times when things don't go quite as planned.

 

[ChrisG]

You could go buffalo hunting with a 30-06, but nobody does and there's a reason why. Just because there's a big hole in the end of the barrel doesn't mean it's good buffalo medicine. When everything goes right, the 45-70 will work just fine. When not, it'll leave any clear-minded person wishing they'd brought more. That's why you bring a real thumper, for those times when things don't go quite as planned.

Except a .30-06 with 220-250 grain solids penetrates better than a .45/70 will. ... Sorry. Can of worms.... opened.

 

[edward]

Edward that's fine. I am truly happy it worked out for you. I am a whole lot happier it all worked out for your PH, tracker, and scout.

im sure they are happy as well.

 

[Bruce]

Like they say... you don't take so knife to a gunfight!!

 

[CTDolan]

im sure they are happy as well.

Yes, because they didn't have to go into the thick stuff, chasing after a buffalo poked in the wrong place with too flimsy of a stick.

As we all know, Bell killed numerous elephants with a 7x57. Is it enough gun? You decide.