Open Sighted 45-70 in Africa

[sierraone]

Hi again Art Lambert II,

Sorry for my error (developed vs adopted), I meant no harm by it, simply thought the US Army developed the .45-70 prior to officially adopting it for service.
But perhaps I'm not correct on this.
However Wikipedia (and Red Leg as well) has my back on the origin of this cartridge.

Not that Wikipedia is the Burning Bush by any means but, if that info is incorrect, I am willing to learn who actually did develop the .45-70 cartridge.
(Wikipedia as well might want to update their file on this cartridge's origin.)

At any rate, I had been under the impression that large caliber black powder cartridge military rifles were chosen at that time, simply because of how fast black powder fouled smaller bores, in the potentially sustained fire of combat.
Likewise, I had thought the US Army developed/adopted the .45-70 to replace the .50-70, because it possibly shot a little flatter plus ammunition was a little less bulky for the foot soldier to carry than the .50-70 and yet was still a marginally large enough diameter bore to remain acceptably accurate, in sustained firing with black powder.
I don't suspect it was because of any failing in the .50-70 if or when it possibly was used to shoot horses.
(I expect either of these two cartridges would have worked very well for that unpleasant task but have not read much if anything about this tactic until now.)

Likewise, I reckoned the rest of the armies around the world who decided on black powder cartridges, ballistically quite similar to the .45-70, was also due to nothing more than the bore fouling issue as already mentioned.
Side Note: Can you imagine trying to keep your Gattling Guns functioning in prolonged combat, with all that black powder fouling crusting up the smaller moving parts ?

Incidentally, the .303 British was briefly a black powder cartridge.
I suspect the Brits jumped for joy when nitro smokeless replaced black powder in the little .303.

Until now, I did not realize the U.S. Army (or any other Army) had experienced a disproportionately large number of Cavalry Charges, at least not to the point of wanting a rifle cartridge to specifically address this situation.

Well anyway, thanks for posting, you are an interesting writer.

Kind regards,
Velo Dog.

Maybe deja vu from the Magnificent Seven? I can't tell.....

 

[ChrisG]

This has gotten a little off topic but I do agree with RedLeg and Velodog. Killing a horse in combat, during the 1870's, had very little effect on the combatants ability to fight. Providing he survived the horse fall, he would still be armed with a carbine that is still effective to several hundred yards. All you have really done is limited his mobility. I mean... A .38-55 will kill a horse just as dead, and it was readily available, so I wonder if the previously stated points about black powder fouling up a large bore less quickly are not more accurate. Killing a horse gives you, for all intents and purposes, a mobility kill. Debilitating the cavalryman is what you're after. It isn't like napoleonic era cavalry charges, where cavalry had to get close to be effective as they were mostly armed with a dragoon's saber and a horse pistol. During the civil war and afterward, cavalry was more akin to a modern mechanized infantry where you can move your cavalry units to ground, dismount them, and then have them fight as infantry.

The only time I can see the ability to kill a horse as a major advantage is, as previously stated, during the Indian Conflicts. But this is only because most Natives would use their horse as a shield during a volley by hunching behind it with one foot in the stirrup on the opposite side. But as previously stated, there were a number of cartridges already available which were lighter to carry and still had the ability to kill a horse. I mean... the .44-40 from a Winchester 1873 could kill a horse quite dead.

But this isn't the point. Wounded horses don't run you down and jump on you like a terrier trying to crush a frog when they catch you. Cape Buffalo sometimes do. A .45-70 might stop a charge. It might not. John Pondoro Taylor recounts hitting a Buffalo in the horn boss with, I believe it was a .425 Westley Richards, and having the jacketed 400 grain bullet disintegrate, leaving only a lead splotch and merely dazing the buff for a second. I doubt a hard cast, unjacketed, lead bullet, moving slower, and having less sectional density, would have done any better. You could say that the object would be to hit the buff up the nose and resolve all of those problems, but a modern .416 brass solid isn't going to have any trouble punching through 8 inches of horn, 1.5 inches of skull and turning the brain into oatmeal. Even a .375 will do that.

All that said, I think the .45-70 would be a fantastic plains game rifle that would be so fun to hunt with. It MAKES you get closer than you ordinarily would have to with a flatter shooting round. And in my mind at least... THAT is what makes hunting fun. The ability to get as close as you can without spooking the animal. Then making your shot count without any guesswork.

 

[Velo Dog]

Hello fellow hunters and rifle enthusiasts,

Back on topic now, and my apologies to the OP from back in 2013, as well as any others possibly (probably) annoyed by my previous ranting away from the topic.
Somewhere and bygone in this forum I have previously submitted my senile opinion on the .45-70 as it pertains to possible use on heavy and dangerous African game (I do suggest you take my opinion with a pinch of beer).
Likewise, please bear in mind that I have taken only one heavy dangerous animal in my life, I nonetheless sadly drone on here (slow day around here and I have no life evidently).
That being said, I have had the great pleasure of discussing this very topic with several PH's, as well as with fellow client types who, have indeed taken large numbers of buffaloes and a few elephant, collectively.
Incidentally, Dr. Kevin "Doctari" Robertson briefly touches on this very cartridge / topic in his excellent book; "Africa's Most Dangerous" (published by Safari Press).
Fantastic book by the way, and I seriously recommend it to anyone interested in hunting African buffalo.

In recapping all the above, is there really a point in using a .45-70 for heavy dangerous game .... no-seriously is there?

If there really is a point to this, why then does one stop specifically at the .45-70?
Why not use the caliber .45-60 Model '76 Winchester lever action?
Better yet, one of these "Cowboy Action" lever or pump carbines, in .45 Long Colt?
While we're here, why even use a .45 inch bore at all ?

Most African countries declare the .37 bore as their minimum for dangerous game, some perhaps the 9.3 millimeter.
So then, in any countries that do not seem to also declare a minimum Muzzle Energy to go with their minimum legal bore size, (otherwise the .45-70 might be ruled out in the first place?) would not then a good old Winchester model 1886, in caliber .40-65 be a great experiment in risking ours and our PH / Tracker's lives?
Why even stop there, how about the .41 Magnum revolver cartridge, in a handy lever action carbine?
Better yet, why bother with a pesky rifle to carry all day in the hot sun.
Instead, why not just carry a revolver and why not also descend down the scale a bit, with the .41 Long Colt? (since we are resurrecting Cowboy black powder cartridges for heavy and dangerous African game).
Maybe someone can chime in here with their experiences of hunting this class of animals with a vintage Remington Derringer, in .41 Rim Fire.

Just in case I haven't irritated my fellow Cowboys quite enough yet, I re-quote myself here:
"A Cape buffalo could probably be taken with a well placed frozen herring but, what is the point?"

Seriously though, just use the already tried and true African dangerous game cartridges, for hunting African heavy dangerous game, such as the .375, .400 NE, .404, .416, .458, .470, etc., in the first place, things will probably go a lot smoother for all parties concerned (including the critter).

Goofy as ever,
Velo Dog.

 

[Rule 303]

This is an interesting topic. I have heard of Elephant being taken with a 45-70 using hard cast flat nose bullets. Shots were heart shots.

Now for my very inexperienced -in DG Hunting-input. I would think that a good lever action, short barrel in 45-70 would be an ideal follow up gun for wounded Lion or Leopard, certainly not for anything tougher in body construction. Thoughts on this please.

 

[Red Leg]

This is an interesting topic. I have heard of Elephant being taken with a 45-70 using hard cast flat nose bullets. Shots were heart shots.

Now for my very inexperienced -in DG Hunting-input. I would think that a good lever action, short barrel in 45-70 would be an ideal follow up gun for wounded Lion or Leopard, certainly not for anything tougher in body construction. Thoughts on this please.

"Ideal"? I don't think so. A double rifle will be quicker, chambered in a better cartridge, and that second shot will require a whole lot fewer moving parts when something large, quick, and irritated is in bound. Would it work - it could - but it would be far from an ideal cat stopper.

 

[Velo Dog]

This is an interesting topic. I have heard of Elephant being taken with a 45-70 using hard cast flat nose bullets. Shots were heart shots.

Now for my very inexperienced -in DG Hunting-input. I would think that a good lever action, short barrel in 45-70 would be an ideal follow up gun for wounded Lion or Leopard, certainly not for anything tougher in body construction. Thoughts on this please.

If one can afford to fish New Guinea, Rapa Nui or Midway, surely he can afford a decent rod and reel.

 

[sierraone]

If one can afford to fish New Guinea, Rapa Nui or Midway, surely he can afford a decent rod and reel.

OK, I'm dumb. I know where New Guinea and Midway are! Where is Rapa Nui? Maybe the rockfish capitol? Only on this forum can we go from a 45-70 rifle to a rod and reel in 3.2 seconds!!!

 

[ChrisG]

OK, I'm dumb. I know where New Guinea and Midway are! Where is Rapa Nui? Maybe the rockfish capitol? Only on this forum can we go from a 45-70 rifle to a rod and reel in 3.2 seconds!!!

Easter Island... Also a good movie.

 

[IronCowboy]

Random thought - does anyone remember which magazine carried the article about ~15yrs ago where a Marlin Guide Gun .45-70 killed 2 Capes in one shot? Seems like it was Vince Lupo who took the shot, not counting for over-penetration.

 

[ChrisG]

https://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/article.cfm?magid=89&tocid=1273

Here is a great article that claims that it was Brian Pearce who shot one buff and had it kill a cow behind him... Just because the round went right through the buffalo and killed both of them doesn't mean it is a dangerous game cartridge however. A 7x57 loaded with 175 grain Woodleigh FMJ RN bullets will do the same thing... In fact the 7x57 has been referenced as having a full pass-through on a heart shot on an elephant... but that doesn't make it a fantastic elephant rifle. A .45-70 just doesn't have the hitting power of something much more suitable. Killing Bison with a .45-70 and calling it the same as a cape buffalo is like saying that, because a 1 ton block of concrete and a ton of nitroglycerin weigh the same, they can both be safely handled with the same tools. Bison do get ornery... but they do not have the stomp, gore and impossible-to-turn-on-charge reputation that the cape buff has. In the words of Capstick, shooting a buff can feel like "Pole-axing Elsie the Cow." But a Marlin Guide gun is not what most PH's carry for good reason... If it was so satisfactory, don't you think more of them would be using Marlins? Instead they inevitably lean toward something that has been established as a dangerous game rifle. People will say "But the .45-70 is dismissed out of hand, just because it isn't a traditional African cartridge." I'm sure in the nearly 150 years it has existed, it has been taken to Africa many, many times. Most of which are likely not recorded. It seems that PH's never adopted them. Why? Because they were seen as marginal. Rifles even more powerful than the .45-70 are not carried because they have a loathesome reputation for not stopping dangerous game. The 10.75x68 Mauser comes to mind. The Mauser is almost non-existent today because even then, better tools were available.

Just my $0.02

 

[Art Lambart II]

I found this account on a different form but I thought it was relative to the topic.

Q: Love your magazine. Could you guys do a study on the .45-70 in comparison to other dangerous game cartridges? Perhaps test the Garrett and Buffalo Bore rounds against the .375 H&H or .458 Winchester Magnum or Lott? If you check out many of the forums, you will see heated debates on this topic. Would be a great seller for you guys and a great read for us!! - C.A.L., via Internet

A: Good idea, but the truth is, there is no comparison between the .45-70 and the .375 H&H, .458 Winchester Magnum or .458 Lott. And, at the risk of possibly inciting a riot on the Internet, I’ll tell you why.

Right off, I would imagine this “debate” is somewhat inspired by the story Brian Pearce did about the .45-70 in Africa, where he used a Cor-Bon 400-grain solid to shoot a Cape buffalo, whereupon the bullet exited the bull and killed a cow buffalo that had gone unnoticed on the other side of the bull. The bull took off, and Brian shot it in the south end where the solid penetrated to the heart, ending the affair in fairly short fashion.

So, it may be logical, from Brian’s account, to assume the .45-70 is perfectly adequate for Cape buffalo - assuming one is using a 400-grain solid at approximately 1,800 fps and the range is limited to 100 yards or less. Most folks would be tempted to ask whether Brian’s hunt would have turned up similar results if he had used a 400-grain softnose. Either way, it’s a bit of a stretch to compare Brian’s load in the .45-70 to a 300-grain solid at 2,400 fps from a .375 H&H, or a 500-grain solid at 2,100 or 2,300 fps from the .458 Winchester or Lott. It’s plainly obvious, or should be, that the two .458 belted cartridges pack a lot more clout than the .45-70, regardless of which performance criterion anyone might choose, i.e. kinetic energy or Taylor’s knock-out formula.

 

[ChrisG]

I found this account on a different form but I thought it was relative to the topic.

Q: Love your magazine. Could you guys do a study on the .45-70 in comparison to other dangerous game cartridges? Perhaps test the Garrett and Buffalo Bore rounds against the .375 H&H or .458 Winchester Magnum or Lott? If you check out many of the forums, you will see heated debates on this topic. Would be a great seller for you guys and a great read for us!! - C.A.L., via Internet

A: Good idea, but the truth is, there is no comparison between the .45-70 and the .375 H&H, .458 Winchester Magnum or .458 Lott. And, at the risk of possibly inciting a riot on the Internet, I’ll tell you why.

Right off, I would imagine this “debate” is somewhat inspired by the story Brian Pearce did about the .45-70 in Africa, where he used a Cor-Bon 400-grain solid to shoot a Cape buffalo, whereupon the bullet exited the bull and killed a cow buffalo that had gone unnoticed on the other side of the bull. The bull took off, and Brian shot it in the south end where the solid penetrated to the heart, ending the affair in fairly short fashion.

So, it may be logical, from Brian’s account, to assume the .45-70 is perfectly adequate for Cape buffalo - assuming one is using a 400-grain solid at approximately 1,800 fps and the range is limited to 100 yards or less. Most folks would be tempted to ask whether Brian’s hunt would have turned up similar results if he had used a 400-grain softnose. Either way, it’s a bit of a stretch to compare Brian’s load in the .45-70 to a 300-grain solid at 2,400 fps from a .375 H&H, or a 500-grain solid at 2,100 or 2,300 fps from the .458 Winchester or Lott. It’s plainly obvious, or should be, that the two .458 belted cartridges pack a lot more clout than the .45-70, regardless of which performance criterion anyone might choose, i.e. kinetic energy or Taylor’s knock-out formula.

- See more at: https://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/article.cfm?magid=89&tocid=1273#sthash.bi0pSWOT.dpuf

Lol Art, I think we posted the same article.

 

[Velo Dog]

https://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/article.cfm?magid=89&tocid=1273

Here is a great article that claims that it was Brian Pearce who shot one buff and had it kill a cow behind him... Just because the round went right through the buffalo and killed both of them doesn't mean it is a dangerous game cartridge however. A 7x57 loaded with 175 grain Woodleigh FMJ RN bullets will do the same thing... In fact the 7x57 has been referenced as having a full pass-through on a heart shot on an elephant... but that doesn't make it a fantastic elephant rifle. A .45-70 just doesn't have the hitting power of something much more suitable. Killing Bison with a .45-70 and calling it the same as a cape buffalo is like saying that, because a 1 ton block of concrete and a ton of nitroglycerin weigh the same, they can both be safely handled with the same tools. Bison do get ornery... but they do not have the stomp, gore and impossible-to-turn-on-charge reputation that the cape buff has. In the words of Capstick, shooting a buff can feel like "Pole-axing Elsie the Cow." But a Marlin Guide gun is not what most PH's carry for good reason... If it was so satisfactory, don't you think more of them would be using Marlins? Instead they inevitably lean toward something that has been established as a dangerous game rifle. People will say "But the .45-70 is dismissed out of hand, just because it isn't a traditional African cartridge." I'm sure in the nearly 150 years it has existed, it has been taken to Africa many, many times. Most of which are likely not recorded. It seems that PH's never adopted them. Why? Because they were seen as marginal. Rifles even more powerful than the .45-70 are not carried because they have a loathesome reputation for not stopping dangerous game. The 10.75x68 Mauser comes to mind. The Mauser is almost non-existent today because even then, better tools were available.

Just my $0.02

Hi ChrisG,

What you have said makes good sense.
I might add that the "thing" about a .45-70 is not that it's incapable of being loaded up to penetrate well.
The "thing" about this cartridge is that to get it to almost but not really quite up to the ballistics of traditional heavy dangerous game hunting standards, the chamber pressure becomes pretty sketchy.
Add the above to the fact that a Marlin lever action (seems to be the majority of .45-70 owner's favorite) has a very weak extractor, also remember that the "African Sun" can get very hot.

Let us not discuss the rather "sporting recoil" from the Marlin .45-70 when loaded "hot".
The rest all told however, become a recipe for the empty shell from your first round potentially staying in the chamber, when you open the action - no thanks.
I like the Ruger single shot rifle but it too has a very small extractor plus, it is already made by Ruger in very powerful but lower pressure cartridges such as; .450 NE, as well as .450/400 NE.
Also, it is a simple matter to have a Professional Gunsmith re-chamber one from .458 to .450 No2 or re-barrel any caliber Ruger No1 Single Shot to .470 NE, etc, etc.

The Siamese Mauser is a Model 98 type but with slant box magazine for large rimmed cartridges and it has a very stout full length claw type extractor.
However, by the time you pay to have one built up in .45-70, or just purchase someone else's broken dreams from the used gun rack, you could have bought a Model 70 Safari Express, or CZ 550 Magnum, (or Ruger 77 Magnum - sadly discontinued but still sometimes available) in an appropriate caliber to begin with.

As I have posted before, "What is the point?"
Therefore, I am only whipping a dead horse here so, I will shut my pie hole now.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.

 

[Rule 303]

"Ideal"? I don't think so. A double rifle will be quicker, chambered in a better cartridge, and that second shot will require a whole lot fewer moving parts when something large, quick, and irritated is in bound. Would it work - it could - but it would be far from an ideal cat stopper.

Good points Red Leg. Then how about a 45-70 in a double. 458 cal, big flat nose round, more than capable of penetrating any cat?

Velo Dog, good points.

 

[Red Leg]

Good points Red Leg. Then how about a 45-70 in a double. 458 cal, big flat nose round, more than capable of penetrating any cat?

Velo Dog, good points.

Sure. Order one. Sabatti had a run for a while (I'd probably rather use the Marlin crank action) though creating one of the 45-70 super loads for it might be a little tricky. I'm sure Holland & Holland would do it just for the novelty. Of course, without embellishment, you are looking at three years and low six figures.

The history of the 577/450 Martini Henry is probably useful to this discussion. The caliber filled the same requirement for the British Army that the 45/70 did for ours. Sort of a holding pattern BP load as the nitro revolution prepared to take off. You can still find a slew of these, in military, commercial martini, and cape guns from a number of English makers. Even the cape guns have military ladder sights so the idle Boer farmer could engage the occasional Zulu Impi. They were for almost 20 years the go to rifle for anything south of an elephant, and more than one pachyderm was worn down by sustained 450 fire. And yet, as soon as anything better became available, these relics of another century were consigned to the scrap heaps of history. And so consigned in spite of cordite and nitro loadings available from Woodleigh until at least shortly after WWI.

Absolutely nothing wrong with nostalgia. Nostalgigate all the plains game your pocket book can afford. I just find it an unethical choice where other lives are at risk.

 

[spike.t]

ok going to stick my oar into this(after observing for a long time) as been out having a very beneficial evening on the juice.......but as always will be polite and above board.........but basically have shot from...... buff ,lion, leopard...oops and eland (its big) with a .300 win mag down it somehow worked ......and if you use a nice bullet so yup put a 45-70 in the right place with right bullet or....it will work......so so how about someone starting another thread about a cal we can start crapping on?

 

[Rule 303]

Red Leg, There is the Baikal double as well. Though I agree there are better choices I would think the 45-70 is more than ethical for any cat that walks when in close and if pump action 12gauges are used for leopard why not a 45-70? Serious question.

 

[spike.t]

Red Leg, There is the Baikal double as well. Though I agree there are better choices I would think the 45-70 is more than ethical for any cat that walks when in close and if pump action 12gauges are used for leopard why not a 45-70? Serious question.

quite a few people over the years have been chewed badly after following wounded leopard with a shotgun and buckshot........

 

[Red Leg]

I have no direct experience following up a cat with a shotgun (the two times I did was with a .338 - my leopard in '08 which was very dead - and a second in '10 which was creased by an Argentine hunter - and which we fortunately never came to grips with). However, the literature is full of instances where buckshot failed to stop inbound leopards. No one would use buckshot on a lion. By the way, I also do not recommend a scoped .338 as an ideal close quarters rifle either!

But to your main point - yes with the right load, properly regulated in the right rifle, a 45/70 would stop a leopard. As, I suppose, would such a rifle in .577/.450. If you could find a Westley Richards or even Krighoff so configured, then sure. But you likely won't. And the Baikal is too clumsy to serve effectively as a boat anchor. Sort of like entering a road rally in a '64 Lada. As I say, you could have one built, for the cost of 5 or 6 leopard hunts, but again, to what purpose. Particularly when a host of far better rounds are looking for good homes.

Finally, once this rifle is built, what would you do with it? I mean, seriously, would you book a "stop a leopard charge hunt?" It would be nearly useless as the precision instrument necessary to shoot the animal off a bait in the first place. And as I indicated, I at least don't consider it appropriate for thick skinned game. And any PH who is going to invest most of an annual salary in a double, will do so in a proven stopping rifle caliber. I would assume most clients who invest in double rifles would be so inclined as well. I certainly was.

Finally, I would never consider a 45/70 as a stopping round for lion. Yes, they are soft skinned, and yes it likely could do the job. However, for me at least, and with apologies to TR, a rifle for angry hurt lions, particularly a double, would start with a 500/416 or .470.

 

[Dragan N.]

https://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/article.cfm?magid=89&tocid=1273

Here is a great article that claims that it was Brian Pearce who shot one buff and had it kill a cow behind him... Just because the round went right through the buffalo and killed both of them doesn't mean it is a dangerous game cartridge however. A 7x57 loaded with 175 grain Woodleigh FMJ RN bullets will do the same thing... In fact the 7x57 has been referenced as having a full pass-through on a heart shot on an elephant... but that doesn't make it a fantastic elephant rifle. A .45-70 just doesn't have the hitting power of something much more suitable. Killing Bison with a .45-70 and calling it the same as a cape buffalo is like saying that, because a 1 ton block of concrete and a ton of nitroglycerin weigh the same, they can both be safely handled with the same tools. Bison do get ornery... but they do not have the stomp, gore and impossible-to-turn-on-charge reputation that the cape buff has. In the words of Capstick, shooting a buff can feel like "Pole-axing Elsie the Cow." But a Marlin Guide gun is not what most PH's carry for good reason... If it was so satisfactory, don't you think more of them would be using Marlins? Instead they inevitably lean toward something that has been established as a dangerous game rifle. People will say "But the .45-70 is dismissed out of hand, just because it isn't a traditional African cartridge." I'm sure in the nearly 150 years it has existed, it has been taken to Africa many, many times. Most of which are likely not recorded. It seems that PH's never adopted them. Why? Because they were seen as marginal. Rifles even more powerful than the .45-70 are not carried because they have a loathesome reputation for not stopping dangerous game. The 10.75x68 Mauser comes to mind. The Mauser is almost non-existent today because even then, better tools were available.

Just my $0.02

Ok first of all I apologize in advance for my ignorance on the subject as I have never hunted cape buffalo. "Stopping" rifle aside and talking about a "killing" rifle, would not a caliber like say a 30-06 or .300 win mag that can effectively kill a buffalo also be capable of effectively killing a cape buffalo? I mean obviously a bigger caliber is required to stop a charge and since cape buffalos are much more aggressive and prone to attacking their hunter than a buffalo is this is why it is preferred I get that, but this aside and just talking from killing point of view i.e. where the first shot hits the vitals and the animal is not charging at you scenario.

To perhaps put this into perspective take humans and chimps. These animals are closely related just like buffalo and cape buffalo are (although id imagine the two bovine are even closer but I am not 100% sure on that). Now a chimp is many times stronger and tougher than a human- in an unarmed fight I'd bet my money on any random run of the mill chimp vs. the top mma fighter. Chimps also once shot don't get as "shocked" as easily as humans do. Yet a round or caliber designed to kill a human would do a pretty good job at killing a chimp to. I would suspect that the same would apply when it comes to buffalo vs. cape buffalo.

The author of this article apparently got permission to hunt a cape buffalo with a .30-06 and it did the job:

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/ammo/ammunition_ultimate_092006/


Now I should say I am in no way saying or advocating that a 30-06 or .300 win mag should be used on a cape buffalo or that it is a desirable option etc... this is purely from a theoretical interest. I totally understand that for an animal as aggressive and prone to charging at or hunting its hunter it definitely makes sense to have .375 as a legal minimum and to typically have even larger and more powerful calibers as back up/ stopping rifles.