Open Sighted 45-70 in Africa

[edward]

isnt this kind of like jacketed versus cast bullets???nobody will ever change the others mind.do what you believe in and pay the piper.if the ph doesnt mind then go for it.

 

[Rule 303]

Spike T, thanks.

Red Leg I think you miss understand me. I am only commenting on/asking about the 45-70 as a suitable cartridge for those situations. I am not, I say again, I am not interested in owing a 45-70 let alone taking one to Africa. As to the delivery system I indulged in the discussion to learn what might be available, but as you say having a double built in one, to what ends.

I for one would not be chasing Leopard with buck shot. If I were to be in that situation and using a shotgun it would need to have solids in it, however I would rather have something with a bit more clout and manageable so a second shot could be had without having to recover from the recoil 577 T-Rex The 375 H&H comes to mind.

 

[Red Leg]

Ok first of all I apologize in advance for my ignorance on the subject as I have never hunted cape buffalo. "Stopping" rifle aside and talking about a "killing" rifle, would not a caliber like say a 30-06 or .300 win mag that can effectively kill a buffalo also be capable of effectively killing a cape buffalo? I mean obviously a bigger caliber is required to stop a charge and since cape buffalos are much more aggressive and prone to attacking their hunter than a buffalo is this is why it is preferred I get that, but this aside and just talking from killing point of view i.e. where the first shot hits the vitals and the animal is not charging at you scenario.

To perhaps put this into perspective take humans and chimps. These animals are closely related just like buffalo and cape buffalo are (although id imagine the two bovine are even closer but I am not 100% sure on that). Now a chimp is many times stronger and tougher than a human- in an unarmed fight I'd bet my money on any random run of the mill chimp vs. the top mma fighter. Chimps also once shot don't get as "shocked" as easily as humans do. Yet a round or caliber designed to kill a human would do a pretty good job at killing a chimp to. I would suspect that the same would apply when it comes to buffalo vs. cape buffalo.

The author of this article apparently got permission to hunt a cape buffalo with a .30-06 and it did the job:

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/ammo/ammunition_ultimate_092006/


Now I should say I am in no way saying or advocating that a 30-06 or .300 win mag should be used on a cape buffalo or that it is a desirable option etc... this is purely from a theoretical interest. I totally understand that for an animal as aggressive and prone to charging at or hunting its hunter it definitely makes sense to have .375 as a legal minimum and to typically have even larger and more powerful calibers as back up/ stopping rifles.

Absolutely. A 30-06 with the right bullet will kill a buffalo. American hunters between the wars shot enormous amounts of game with the '06 - including buffalo, rhino, and the cats. If you read their writings, the number of wounded animals which they lost is also fairly staggering by modern standards. A great deal of practical experience, if not scientific study, has driven the minimum caliber rules. Today, a drop of blood is the same as a dead animal with respect to a trophy fee. The .375 buys 100 - 120 grains of extra insurance in making the most of that first shot. And I believe that making that lethal first shot on DG is the single most important contribution we clients can make to a DG hunt.

 

[Red Leg]

Spike T, thanks.

Red Leg I think you miss understand me. I am only commenting on/asking about the 45-70 as a suitable cartridge for those situations. I am not, I say again, I am not interested in owing a 45-70 let alone taking one to Africa. As to the delivery system I indulged in the discussion to learn what might be available, but as you say having a double built in one, to what ends.

I for one would not be chasing Leopard with buck shot. If I were to be in that situation and using a shotgun it would need to have solids in it, however I would rather have something with a bit more clout and manageable so a second shot could be had without having to recover from the recoil 577 T-Rex The 375 H&H comes to mind.

If I were the sort of PH who could afford a specialized follow-up rifle just for leopard, I think my ideal choice would be a 9.3x74r double rifle. Weight would be 7.5 to 8.5 pounds with very generous open sights. It would be as quick as a SxS bird gun, and yet would hit with authority just short of a .375. Recoil is very manageable. Such a rifle is also very obtainable. Chapuis and Krieghoff make wonderful ones currently and there are some fantastic vintage 9.3's to be had. It is not really a "stopping" rifle for DG, but with the right bullet would work admirably as a client's weapon for buffalo or lion (as I noted earlier, if I had to stop anything but a leopard I am leaning toward the .470 class.)

 

[DUGABOY1]

If I were the sort of PH who could afford a specialized follow-up rifle just for leopard, I think my ideal choice would be a 9.3x74r double rifle. Weight would be 7.5 to 8.5 pounds with very generous open sights. It would be as quick as a SxS bird gun, and yet would hit with authority just short of a .375. Recoil is very manageable. Such a rifle is also very obtainable. Chapuis and Krieghoff make wonderful ones currently and there are some fantastic vintage 9.3's to be had. It is not really a "stopping" rifle for DG, but with the right bullet would work admirably as a client's weapon for buffalo or lion (as I noted earlier, if I had to stop anything but a leopard I am leaning toward the .470 class.)

..........................................I agree 100%

Mule deer and elk can be taken with a .22 lr but there are laws against it for good reason.
The 45-70 is a fine old work horse, and for just about anything in North America is fine as long as one stays within range where shot placement can be assured and using good bullets and hot loads.
Like most here I'm not saying the 45-70 cannot be used to take cape buffalo and elephant it has been done, but I don't consider it to be a good choice for that purpose, and I wouldn't go all the way to Africa, and pay the funds needed to hunt cape buffalo and/or elephant and depend on a lever actioned Marlin 45-70. Like Red leg I wouldn't use any thing less suited for that hunting than a 375 H&H mag, but would prefer my 470NE double rifle!

...............................................Not judge anyone who wants to test the waters with their 45-70 lever gun, just think it is not the best idea anyone ever had, in my opinion!

 

[CAustin]

isnt this kind of like jacketed versus cast bullets???nobody will ever change the others mind.do what you believe in and pay the piper.if the ph doesnt mind then go for it.

I'm with you Edward. I took mine one time and I suppose I will take it back one day just to prove what I can do with it. ( Marlin 1895)

 

[CTDolan]

Will the 45-70 work? Yes or maybe.

Are there better choices? Many

Why is the 45-70 held in disdain?

A) The myth it is nearly equal to the 458 Win Mag. Both loaded to safe potential with a 500 grain bullet they are not close.

B) The myth that the 45-70 will out penetrate a Lott or Win Mag. With equal bullets especially good solids it will not be close, especially through heavy bone. The only reason a 45-70 will out penetrate a Lott or Win Mag is in soft tissue it may not have enough velocity to cause a soft to expand. The bullet acts like a solid, with minimal tissue damage. I have seen it happen.

C) All in all just not enough gun IMO.

But bring what you want, you are paying trophy fees and more than likely it will be your PH that will be hurt, not you.

I haven't read all the posts, but really, there isn't any need for this one says it all (and quite well, I might add).

 

[sgt_zim]

Is the 45-70 suitable for Africa? Ive seen some hot loads for it with heavy bullets. Almost like a Win Mag.Almost but not quite.But in reality it penetrates well and would seem to be a great round for cape buffalo when loaded hot. But i dont know. How is the 45-70 viewed for hunting Africa?

I just exchanged emails with a PH yesterday, and he's had a client take cape buffalo with an 1895 Marlin in 45-70. Lots of guys take Alaskan moose with a .45-70, a heavy, big-boned, potentially dangerous animal. Not a cape buffalo in temperament or muscle density, but a big, heavy animal nonetheless. I'd bet that more than a few large Alaskan brown bears have been taken with them, too.

I love my 1895G and will be taking it with me to Africa. Like another guy said, stay within its performance envelope, know its (and your) limits.

 

[CAustin]

I know a PH that has one on order in Africa and is fine with its use.

 

[1dirthawker]

sgt,

i am a part time brown bear guide. i used a 45-70 as a backup gun for several years on brown bear hunts. it worked perfectly. once, i had a shoot out in the alders with a bear and wished i had more cartridge capacity than the 4 shot tube that came with it. i had a 6 shot magazine installed! it does really smash a bear at the relatively close ranges i shot them.

that said, although i think it would be an adequate buffalo rifle (as is a 9.3x62) i would think that it is not a great stopping or backup rifle for buffalo. lets face it, you can shoot 400gr bullets at 2,000 fps and 350 gr bullets at 2,200 fps. with a good bullet, it is certainly not going to bounce off a cape buffalo.

the difference is the length/diameter of said bullets (sectional density) and i think that even tho the 450-400 shoots the same bullet 100 fps faster (not much) it will penetrate better. i also suspect my 450-400 is not considered a "great" stopping/backup round for most dangerous game either. maybe a little on the light side.

now a 475 turnbull, that is a bit different. it has more of everything, bullet weight, energy etc and it is very fast to operate.

a 45-70 is likely adequate, but not much more. a brown bear is not as big or as heavily boned/muscled as a buffalo. a 45-70 works GREAT on brown bears. (that said i now use a 375 ruger OR my 450-400.)

 

[CAustin]

Thanks for your comments @1dirthawker. It's good to hear that the 45-70 has been used by you to put down brown bear. What ammo were you using
in your rifle?

 

[1dirthawker]

i was using 350 gr kodiak bonded bullets at 2150 fps. i ended up shooting 2 follow ups that were bang, flop. one that i shot twice, pretty much the same. the shootout bear got 3 shots in about 3 seconds! the hunter shot twice, once to start things, then i got of 3 shots and the hunter applied another shot (with 375) at 13 yards.

 

[CAustin]

Sounds like that was an exciting hunt! 13 yards with a brown bear still coming!

 

[1dirthawker]

yeah,
we blood trailed it for 3 hours. expecting at any minute to have a charge. found it, thought it was dead, turned out it wasn't, closed in thru some alders, had a shoot out. i was relieved but so stoked on adrenaline i wanted to throw up immediately afterward.
it is a great story when reading from a chair with a scotch, but actually being there wasn't much fun.
my client never truly got it. i don't think he fully realized the situation that we were actually in.

 

[LivingTheDream]

yeah,
we blood trailed it for 3 hours. expecting at any minute to have a charge. found it, thought it was dead, turned out it wasn't, closed in thru some alders, had a shoot out. i was relieved but so stoked on adrenaline i wanted to throw up immediately afterward.
it is a great story when reading from a chair with a scotch, but actually being there wasn't much fun.
my client never truly got it. i don't think he fully realized the situation that we were actually in.

It amazes me how some people never truly grasp how bad a situation could have gone.

 

[sgt_zim]

yeah,
we blood trailed it for 3 hours. expecting at any minute to have a charge. found it, thought it was dead, turned out it wasn't, closed in thru some alders, had a shoot out. i was relieved but so stoked on adrenaline i wanted to throw up immediately afterward.
it is a great story when reading from a chair with a scotch, but actually being there wasn't much fun.
my client never truly got it. i don't think he fully realized the situation that we were actually in.

I've been watching a bunch of hunting videos from Africa hunts for DG. It is absolutely painful for me to watch the PH have to tell his client "reload" 3 or 4 times after just putting a bullet in DG.

To be fair, I guess, most American and European hunters have probably never hunted anything other than deer/elk/stag/roebuck, so maybe it becomes habituated in them to just stand there and do nothing.

I've not hunted DG yet myself, but I do hunt feral hogs down here in Texas as often as I can. I don't do a quick reload for a follow-up necessarily, but when the hogs are running and you don't cycle another cartridge in, you're letting an awful lot of meat run away. I have an 1895G with a 6-rd tube - last time I was hog hunting, I emptied it as one swineherd ran by. Only got 2 pigs out of 7 shots fired, but on the shoats (under 100#), I generally try to shoot them in the head so as not to ruin any meat. If I overlead, then it's a clean miss and no wounded hog. If I underlead, it goes in the neck or shoulder (or worse, the gut or a ham). That's just too much opportunity for non-fatal wounding, so I err on the side of caution.

I imagine that the vital area on something like a cape is probably the size of an entire shoat, and possibly even larger. I personally like my odds, but "practice" is never the same as the real thing, so only time will tell.

 

[Velo Dog]

although i think it would be an adequate buffalo rifle (as is a 9.3x62) i would think that it is not a great stopping or backup rifle for buffalo

Don,

I agree with your attached statement here.
You have no doubt shot many more dangerous animals than I have and I appreciate your thoughts on the subject.
Learning what experienced people think about a given topic is always interesting for me.
Incidentally, our own doctari505 (famous Author, Wildlife Veterinarian and African PH, Dr. Kevin Robertson) strongly endorses the 9.3x62 for buffalo hunting, especially when clients are not "rifle nuts" and therefore will likely have little interest in training-up properly with a .416 or some such decent kicker, before flying over to hunt.
But I will bet Robertson will agree with you as you also stated, it's probably not so great for following up wounded African buffaloes.

On a separate subject, we look forward to seeing you and your lovely wife again, at some point down the trail.
(Perhaps one day in the distant future, Kelley and I can bribe you into letting us watch your raptor strike a pigeon or duck or grouse, or whatever is appropriate).
Meanwhile, if you have Saturday, May-6th off from work, don't forget the Double Rifle Shoot at Birchwood Range at 10:00 hr, and the party afterwards at my place, beginning around 1600 hr.
If interested in the shooting, (no rifle necessary) please RSVP to Cal Pappas, here within the World's Greatest Forum (so he can organize enough hotdogs, sodas and such for the noon lunch provided).
As for the party, no RSVP needed, just BYOB plus an hors d'oeurvre, or any snack type food will do well (chicken wings, chips & salsa, pretzels, cheese plate, etc., etc).
However, tap beer will be provided until the short keg runs dry.
It's 5 gallons so, it might hold up to the end, depends on how many thirsty souls show up.
Usually it's about a dozen to 15 people in all.
The women folk are encouraged to attend but no little children (there's just something about having to wash soda pop off the ceiling and cut bubble gum out of the dog's beard that rubs us the wrong way-LOL).
Of course, your 32 year old son is very welcome.
I remember your boy from the gun shows around here and he is a gentleman in my book, very welcome at our hut any time.

Regards,
Paul.

 

[Tom Leoni]

So the original question (title) is whether an open-sighted .45/70 would be suitable for Africa. Answer: yes, at the ranges at which one would be ethically hunting non-dangerous game with open sights (=< 100 yards and in rather open country, in my book).

Then the second question is whether it would be OK for buffalo. Answer: it will kill it, with proper bullet placement and at a suitable range (see above). But a 500-gr bullet starting at an optimistic 1800 fps has a rainbow-like trajectory and will shed velocity in no time; so I don't know that I would shoot (or that my PH would let me shoot) a buffalo with open sights with a .45/70 at 200-250 yards. I know I wouldn't dare do it.

The question then is not so much if under ideal conditions this can be done--of course it can. The question becomes if the risk/reward ratio is worth it, knowing that under less than ideal field conditions you would either have to pass up a trophy or force your PH to back you just so that you can say you used your pet caliber to draw first blood.

I'm a huge fan of the .45/70, but I see no reason to gamble an expensive African buffalo hunt on it, especially with open sights. A scoped .375, .400, .404, .416, .450 or similar have been the classic choice--for a century and for a reason.

 

[Jimbob]

There is a gent called Bob Mitchell who has a blog and he loves the 45-70. His are Ruger No1's and he loads them to modern rifle pressures. He also long throated one of his, calls it the 45-70 Improved if you fancy a google, and that enables it to basically duplicate a 458 Win Mag.
He explains all in his articles. If I had a 45-70 Ruger and wanted to hunt buff without buying a new rifle I would go down the long throat route and have at it.
You don't need that extra for PG though as has been said, just practice lots and run normal modern lever gun loads and you're good to go.

 

[sgt_zim]

So the original question (title) is whether an open-sighted .45/70 would be suitable for Africa. Answer: yes, at the ranges at which one would be ethically hunting non-dangerous game with open sights (=< 100 yards and in rather open country, in my book).

Then the second question is whether it would be OK for buffalo. Answer: it will kill it, with proper bullet placement and at a suitable range (see above). But a 500-gr bullet starting at an optimistic 1800 fps has a rainbow-like trajectory and will shed velocity in no time; so I don't know that I would shoot (or that my PH would let me shoot) a buffalo with open sights with a .45/70 at 200-250 yards. I know I wouldn't dare do it.

The question then is not so much if under ideal conditions this can be done--of course it can. The question becomes if the risk/reward ratio is worth it, knowing that under less than ideal field conditions you would either have to pass up a trophy or force your PH to back you just so that you can say you used your pet caliber to draw first blood.

I'm a huge fan of the .45/70, but I see no reason to gamble an expensive African buffalo hunt on it, especially with open sights. A scoped .375, .400, .404, .416, .450 or similar have been the classic choice--for a century and for a reason.

Tens of thousands of American bison have been taken with some flavor or another of black powder, cast .458/.459 (45-70, 45-90, 45-110). The ideal conditions for a .45-70 are little different than the ideal conditions for an un-scoped double, are they not? Would you take a 200-250 yd shot over iron sights with a .577 NE at a cape buffalo? I can shoot clover-leaf with my .308 all day long from 200 yards, but I'm probably not going to ever pull the trigger on a cape buffalo, even with a scoped 375 or 416, from 200-250 yards. Some guys would, I just wouldn't.

After reading Vince Lupo's accounting of his safaris (http://www.garrettcartridges.com/luposafaris.html) with a .45-70, I'm as convinced as anyone that a .45-70, with the right ammo, is more than up to the task. Lupo (or Garret Cartridges) may be completely F.O.S. for all I know, but he claims full body-length penetration of hard-cast, 540 gr Hammerheads as well as a broad-side shot from 80 yards which broke both shoulders on an old dagga boy with a 13" boss. From within 100 yards, the NE and magnum cartridges can do no better (is there a "better" than 2 broken shoulders and full body length penetration?).

I've already found a PH in Zim who is fine with me bringing a .45-70 for buffalo, and I'm sure he isn't the only one. Now, having said that, my Marlin is going to get an upgrade from either Ranger Point Precision or Brockman's before I go.

I hope this doesn't come across as snarky or anything, and if it does, you have my apologies ahead of time.