Old World American Beauty

Hunter-Habib

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The Author With 12 Gauge Remington Model 11 On An Axis Stag Hunt In Kotka (1983)

I don't know where I first heard it (or even who the original quote is from), but amongst avid shotgunners... the old adage goes "English build the best side by sides, Belgians build the the best over & unders, Italians build the best semi automatics & Americans build the best pump actions". This is certainly true, but not without exceptions.

Take America's first semi automatic shotgun for instance- The Remington Model 11. A licensed copy of the world's first semi automatic shotgun, the Browning A5 (designed by American visionary firearms designer John Moses Browning and originally manufactured at the Fabrique Nationale factory in Belgium before production shifted to the Miroku factory in Japan in 1975 before production completely ceased in 1998). The Remington Model 11 is still my favorite semi automatic shotgun of all time.

Produced at the historical Remington factory at Ilion in New York from 1905-1947, the Remington Model 11 employed a revolutionary long recoil operated mechanism (which in my humble opinion, is still the world's finest mechanism for a semi automatic shotgun). This basically works by having the barrel and bolt both move back upon recoil; the recoil spring around the magazine tube then drives the barrel forward as the bolt is held back, allowing the spent cartridge to eject and a new shell to be lifted up from the magazine and be driven into the chamber as the bolt returns, pushed by the action spring housed in the stock. The Model 11 was offered in 3 calibers- 12 gauge, 16 gauge & 20 gauge. For the purposes of simplifying matters, today our focus will be predominantly upon the 12 gauge variants.

Built with a 2.75'' chamber with a 4+1 capacity in the tubular magazine and weighing 7 LB 12 OZ, a 12 gauge Remington Model 11 was offered in the following grades:
11 A – "Standard" Grade
11 R – "Riot" Special
11 P – "Police" Special
11 B – "Special" Grade
11 C – "Trap" Grade
11 D – "Tournament" Grade
11 E – "Expert" Grade
11 F – "Premier" Grade
IMG_3264.webp

Vintage Remington Model 11 Advertisement (1929)

When designing a semi automatic shotgun, The trick was figuring how to regulate the force of recoil so it would work with light-recoiling skeet/trap cartridges or heavy-recoiling game cartridges. If built for heavy loads, light loads wouldn’t have the power to cycle; if built for light loads, heavy loads would hammer with excessive recoil that would batter the gun.

Mr. Browning and his brothers reportedly went through several variations, testing each extensively, and finally arriving at a system of adjustable friction rings that slide over the magazine tube and regulate the compression of the recoil spring. If you planned to shoot light cartridges, you set the rings a certain way; for heavy cartridges, a simple adjustment to how the rings were arranged was needed. Not only did they succeed in this designing a magnificent sporting firearm but they also ended up creating a shotgun which reliably served several armies in a variety of armed conflicts all throughout the entirety of the 20th century. Speaking strictly about the Remington Model 11, the shotgun saw some use during the Second World War amongst American soldiers stationed in the Pacific Theatre. Some were also used in the early stages of the United State's involvement during the Vietnam war (before the Remington Model 870 pump action shotgun would become standardized).
IMG_2251.jpeg

Vintage Remington Model 11 Advertisement Showing The Option For Being Ordered With Variable Chokes (1940)


I personally have used a Remington Model 11 for both tactical purposes & sporting purposes. During my wartime service with the East Bengal Regiment during the 1971 Indo-Pak war, we had a fellow Freedom Fighter by the name of Tonmoy at my Company's base camp in Farua who owned a fully choked Remington Model 11 in 12 gauge (it was his personally owned firearm since he was a fellow hunter just like myself). Tonmoy & I would eventually become fast friends, when we were assigned to night patrol together. Loaded with five rounds of Eley's infamous Alphamax LG buckshot cartridges, Tonmoy's weapon of choice saved our unit from more than one unsavory enemy ambush. The rest of us carried a combination of issued .303 Lee Enfields, 7.62x39mm Soviet AK-47s or (as in my case) the .308 Winchester Belgian FN FAL. In the event of an enemy ambush, it would take Tonmoy less than 3 seconds to let off all 5 rounds into the direction of enemy gunfire. That’s 40 large lead .36 caliber pellets being propelled at a speed of 1120 FPS. On many occasions, I took Tonmoy's venerable Model 11 in my own hands during night patrol. I also frequently used it to hunt small game (loaded with Eley Alphamax Magnum 42 gram #4 cartridges), in order to supplement camp rations (imperial pigeons & red jungle fowl were always a welcome addition to our meager food supplies at the Farua base camp).

After the War was over, I opted to pursue a career in forestry while Tonmoy chose to remain behind in the army. Nevertheless, we both remained (and still remain to this date) close friends. During my various postings as DFO (Divisional Forest Officer) of the Chittagong Hill Tracts, Maulvi Bazaar & Sundarbans (between 1972-1989), Tonmoy would often come to visit the forests that I was in charge of so that we could both enjoy some excellent hunting together. Needless to say, that Remington Model 11 & I had quite a few adventures together.

In 2005, Tonmoy told me that he was leaving to Germany to be with his children there (although he still comes here to visit once every year) and that he would like to gift me the old Remington. Although I was extremely touched by my friend’s immense generosity, I was a doubles man through & through (owning a beautiful 1987 made 12 gauge 3” Magnum Beretta Model 626E boxlock ejector side by side). So I instead gifted it to my daughter, Kaniz on her upcoming 25th birthday. And Kaniz & the Model 11 have become nigh inseparable ever since. She had fired a few shots from Tonmoy’s shotgun in the past (when she used to accompany us on some of our hunts) and she always preferred a semi automatic over a side by side or an over & under. She loves taking the grand old gun out for driven Kaleej (Asian bush pheasant) & driven muntjac deer hunts at least a half dozen times throughout the year. For Kaleej, she prefers the German Rottweil Weidmannsheil 36 gram #4. For muntjac, she prefers the Spanish RIO 27 pellet 4 Buck.

Built in 1946, Tonmoy’s Remington Model 11 is now 78 years young but continues to hold it’s own with the smoothness & accuracy of a weapon that just left the factory yesterday. Today, many excellent semi automatic shotguns can be found on the market. Amongst the gas operated variants… some good ones include Berettas & Fabarms from Italy, Winchesters & Brownings from Portugal and Remingtons from the United States. Amongst the inertia operated variants, some good ones include Benellis, Franchis & Bredas from Italy and the new Browning A5 from Portugal.

But in my humble opinion, the old long recoil operated Remington Model 11 will always be THE semi automatic shotgun to beat. A testament to a time when American craftsmen took an immense amount of pride in their work, instead of outsourcing to overseas factories. And a time when fine wooden stocks graced sporting firearms, instead of synthetic monstrosities (although synthetic stocks definitely possess their advantages, no doubt).

Do any of you own a Remington Model 11 or original Browning A5 (the long recoil operated variants; not the currently manufactured Portuguese inertia operated ones) ? If so, how has your hunting experiences been with it so far ?

IMG_3266.jpeg

Remington Model 11 Made In 1946
 
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Yes, one of each and both are 16ga. The model 11 was my dad's, plain barrel, modified choke. The A5 has ribbed barrel, full choke but is difficult to shoot. It's chambered for 2-9/16" shells, short shells I've found are 2-1/2" and generally have trouble cycling the action.
 
Great post! I am currently in possession of a Remington Model 11 that belongs to a good friend. I am going to repair and refinish the stock with a hand rubbed oil finish and replace the recoil pad.

20240720_145330.jpg


I haven't owned one myself, nor the Auto-5, but I did own the Savage 720 version in 12 gauge for a short while.
 
@Hunter Habib - Yes I own a Browning A5 "Sweet Sixteen"(1953 production I believe) with improved cylinder choke and of course in16ga 2&3/4". Also I have one in 12ga with both Modified choke and slug barrel with rifle sights.

I believe the Browning 16ga is the finest quail hunting shotgun ever built.
 
Thank you, everyone. I wonder if anybody here owns one of the poly choke variants.
 
Great Post Hunter-Habib,

It seems a shame that such an iconic design from whom I believe was the world’s greatest firearms designer, has passed into history.
It is also regrettable that, the Auto-5 and Remington Model were never built on a petit frame in .410 and 28 bore.

Prior to selling off my gun collection to help pay for more safaris, among several shotguns, I also had a vintage Belgian Auto-5 in 12 gauge, with full choke , 28” barrel and solid rib.
I think ventilated ribs are ugly plus, they are gathering places for moisture and rust —> Bah Humbug.:ROFLMAO:
Now a solid rib, that is the bee’s knees.

Also, I had great plans to eventually buy a shorter spare factory slug barrel for it, with rifle sights and soforth.
However, I “discovered” Africa during that time in my life and sold many worldly possessions, including my former gun collection, as mentioned.

Well anyway, thanks for posting this thread.
I don’t understand why every man is not a firearms enthusiast, I truly do not.

I spent most of my money on well made firearms and global hunting.
The rest I just wasted.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.
 
My go-to shotgun for both the range and field is a 1961 A5 Magnum Twelve with 31" 1990s Miroku barrel (= Invector choke tubes). This gun went through two sets of wood on both ends before I switched it to synthetic. Two design flaws with the old A5 are the tang screw through the wrist and barrel ring bottoms against the wood forearm. Wood does not hold up to extensive stress and anyone who shoots a lot invariably will have replaced stock and fore end at least once. The magnums always had trouble cycling light loads no matter what arrangement was attempted with friction rings. Most guys just threw the rings away which results in the fore end (and shooter's shoulder) being destroyed much faster. I simply swapped out the 3" barrel spring and friction brake for 2.75" parts. I added a machined sleeve to the magazine tube to take up the length difference between shorter 2.75" barrel spring and 3" spring. The gun now works flawlessly at the range. On a couple of occasions I forgot to change back to magnum parts when shooting 3" shells. Seemed to cycle okay but I wouldn't make a habit of it!

I also own an unmodified Belgian A5 Light Twelve bought new at the Seoul military PX in 1972. It has modified choke. It's killed a lot of pheasants and even a few geese. My daughter shoots trap with it once in a while. I prefer the heavier Magnum Twelve. Less recoil and swings better.

Dad had a Model 11 with factory Polychoke and solid rib. The Remington factory historian told me the barrels and rib were machined from solid piece of metal. I thought the Polychoke was added by Dad but historian confirmed they were mounted at the factory. I told him I was looking for a barrel without one. He said don't change it! Remington used poor metal in those barrels and even though wall thickness was heavy, many bulged or split even before advent of steel shot. Polychokes were actually stronger! Interesting. My youngest brother inherited that gun in 1999 when Dad died. As far as I know he's never shot it. I borrowed it one season several years ago when a screw fell out of my A5 while I was in Montana hunting. Somewhere I have a photo of it with a daily bag of three rooster pheasants. It's the wallpaper on my laptop screen. This is my A5 Magnum Twelve.
20221106_164038.jpg
 
I acquired a Model 11, 30 inch full choke last year. It will see some waterfowl action this fall.
 
View attachment 631535
The Author With 12 Gauge Remington Model 11 On An Axis Stag Hunt In Kotka (1983)

I don't know where I first heard it (or even who the original quote is from), but amongst avid shotgunners... the old adage goes "English build the best side by sides, Belgians build the the best over & unders, Italians build the best semi automatics & Americans build the best pump actions". This is certainly true, but not without exceptions.

Take America's first semi automatic shotgun for instance- The Remington Model 11. A licensed copy of the world's first semi automatic shotgun, the Browning A5 (designed by American visionary firearms designer John Moses Browning and originally manufactured at the Fabrique Nationale factory in Belgium before production shifted to the Miroku factory in Japan in 1975 before production completely ceased in 1998). The Remington Model 11 is still my favorite semi automatic shotgun of all time.

Produced at the historical Remington factory at Ilion in New York from 1905-1947, the Remington Model 11 employed a revolutionary long recoil operated mechanism (which in my humble opinion, is still the world's finest mechanism for a semi automatic shotgun). This basically works by having the barrel and bolt both move back upon recoil; the recoil spring around the magazine tube then drives the barrel forward as the bolt is held back, allowing the spent cartridge to eject and a new shell to be lifted up from the magazine and be driven into the chamber as the bolt returns, pushed by the action spring housed in the stock. The Model 11 was offered in 3 calibers- 12 gauge, 16 gauge & 20 gauge. For the purposes of simplifying matters, today our focus will be predominantly upon the 12 gauge variants.

Built with a 2.75'' chamber with a 4+1 capacity in the tubular magazine and weighing 7 LB 12 OZ, a 12 gauge Remington Model 11 was offered in the following grades:
11 A – "Standard" Grade
11 R – "Riot" Special
11 P – "Police" Special
11 B – "Special" Grade
11 C – "Trap" Grade
11 D – "Tournament" Grade
11 E – "Expert" Grade
11 F – "Premier" Grade
View attachment 631536
Vintage Remington Model 11 Advertisement (1929)

When designing a semi automatic shotgun, The trick was figuring how to regulate the force of recoil so it would work with light-recoiling skeet/trap cartridges or heavy-recoiling game cartridges. If built for heavy loads, light loads wouldn’t have the power to cycle; if built for light loads, heavy loads would hammer with excessive recoil that would batter the gun.

Mr. Browning and his brothers reportedly went through several variations, testing each extensively, and finally arriving at a system of adjustable friction rings that slide over the magazine tube and regulate the compression of the recoil spring. If you planned to shoot light cartridges, you set the rings a certain way; for heavy cartridges, a simple adjustment to how the rings were arranged was needed. Not only did they succeed in this designing a magnificent sporting firearm but they also ended up creating a shotgun which reliably served several armies in a variety of armed conflicts all throughout the entirety of the 20th century. Speaking strictly about the Remington Model 11, the shotgun saw some use during the Second World War amongst American soldiers stationed in the Pacific Theatre. Some were also used in the early stages of the United State's involvement during the Vietnam war (before the Remington Model 870 pump action shotgun would become standardized).
View attachment 631540
Vintage Remington Model 11 Advertisement Showing The Option For Being Ordered With Variable Chokes (1940)


I personally have used a Remington Model 11 for both tactical purposes & sporting purposes. During my wartime service with the East Bengal Regiment during the 1971 Indo-Pak war, we had a fellow Freedom Fighter by the name of Tonmoy at my Company's base camp in Farua who owned a fully choked Remington Model 11 in 12 gauge (it was his personally owned firearm since he was a fellow hunter just like myself). Tonmoy & I would eventually become fast friends, when we were assigned to night patrol together. Loaded with five rounds of Eley's infamous Alphamax LG buckshot cartridges, Tonmoy's weapon of choice saved our unit from more than one unsavory enemy ambush. The rest of us carried a combination of issued .303 Lee Enfields, 7.62x39mm Soviet AK-47s or (as in my case) the .308 Winchester Belgian FN FAL. In the event of an enemy ambush, it would take Tonmoy less than 3 seconds to let off all 5 rounds into the direction of enemy gunfire. That’s 40 large lead .36 caliber pellets being propelled at a speed of 1120 FPS. On many occasions, I took Tonmoy's venerable Model 11 in my own hands during night patrol. I also frequently used it to hunt small game (loaded with Eley Alphamax Magnum 42 gram #4 cartridges), in order to supplement camp rations (imperial pigeons & red jungle fowl were always a welcome addition to our meager food supplies at the Farua base camp).

After the War was over, I opted to pursue a career in forestry while Tonmoy chose to remain behind in the army. Nevertheless, we both remained (and still remain to this date) close friends. During my various postings as DFO (Divisional Forest Officer) of the Chittagong Hill Tracts, Maulvi Bazaar & Sundarbans (between 1972-1989), Tonmoy would often come to visit the forests that I was in charge of so that we could both enjoy some excellent hunting together. Needless to say, that Remington Model 11 & I had quite a few adventures together.

In 2005, Tonmoy told me that he was leaving to Germany to be with his children there (although he still comes here to visit once every year) and that he would like to gift me the old Remington. Although I was extremely touched by my friend’s immense generosity, I was a doubles man through & through (owning a beautiful 1987 made 12 gauge 3” Magnum Beretta Model 626E boxlock ejector side by side). So I instead gifted it to my daughter, Kaniz on her upcoming 25th birthday. And Kaniz & the Model 11 have become nigh inseparable ever since. She had fired a few shots from Tonmoy’s shotgun in the past (when she used to accompany us on some of our hunts) and she always preferred a semi automatic over a side by side or an over & under. She loves taking the grand old gun out for driven Kaleej (Asian bush pheasant) & driven muntjac deer hunts at least a half dozen times throughout the year. For Kaleej, she prefers the German Rottweil Weidmannsheil 36 gram #4. For muntjac, she prefers the Spanish RIO 27 pellet 4 Buck.

Built in 1946, Tonmoy’s Remington Model 11 is now 78 years young but continues to hold it’s own with the smoothness & accuracy of a weapon that just left the factory yesterday. Today, many excellent semi automatic shotguns can be found on the market. Amongst the gas operated variants… some good ones include Berettas & Fabarms from Italy, Winchesters & Brownings from Portugal and Remingtons from the United States. Amongst the inertia operated variants, some good ones include Benellis, Franchis & Bredas from Italy and the new Browning A5 from Portugal.

But in my humble opinion, the old long recoil operated Remington Model 11 will always be THE semi automatic shotgun to beat. A testament to a time when American craftsmen took an immense amount of pride in their work, instead of outsourcing to overseas factories. And a time when fine wooden stocks graced sporting firearms, instead of synthetic monstrosities (although synthetic stocks definitely possess their advantages, no doubt).

Do any of you own a Remington Model 11 or original Browning A5 (the long recoil operated variants; not the currently manufactured Portuguese inertia operated ones) ? If so, how has your hunting experiences been with it so far ?

View attachment 631539
Remington Model 11 Made In 1946
Your experience is legendary my friend!!! So ENJOYED your book!!!
 
I have a 1948 Browning Belgian Auto-5 "Sweet Sixteen" 16 gauge with the Polychoke. Someone had previously modified it and shortened the barrel to 22". It's a great grouse and quail gun in the woods; swings quick and doesn't get hung up in tight brush. I pair it with my 1951 Stevens 311 SxS 16 gauge with the tenite stock to hunt pheasant. Love the light and hard hitting 16 gauges for upland hunting.
 
I just saw a nice Remington model 11 for $400 what a shame they are not more appreciated
 
Right around 40 years ago, my Aunt/Uncle and cousins lived in Pikeville Kentucky. My Uncle owned a General Store there, he liked guns and shooting, and fighting roosters. In those days he would often buy or trade for guns of all sorts, and had more guns than anyone I could imagine at the time, being around 10 years old or so.....

I don't remember many visits there, but I do remember one in particular. I remember my Dad buying a shotgun from my Uncle. At the time I had no idea what it was, but later in life that shotgun ended up being a Remington M11 16 ga. Even today I am not much of a shotgun person so I certainly not up on the ins and outs of shotguns. I remember my Dad was often seen with that shotgun grouse hunting. I know he used it when he needed a shotgun all those years since.

My Uncle passed many years ago heart attack and was not very old. My Aunt moved to Florida and better weather, and she passed a few years ago as well. My Dad passed in 2022, that Remington M11 was still around with a few of his other firearms. When we collected all his stuff and brought it home, I had my 3 kids over and I divided up the firearms to them. My Son Mark David really loved that Remington M11, and he knows enough of what it is to appreciate it, so he has it now, and it taking proper care of it.
 
I just saw a nice Remington model 11 for $400 what a shame they are not more appreciated
My daughter took a taxidermy course in Bonner, MT when my grandson was just a tike so I went with her to babysit. One day to kill some time I cruised the pawn shops in Missoula to see what they had for guns. One downtown had an A5 in good shape but fixed full. It had an $800+ tag on it. I told the guy he'll never get that much. Fixed full is useless for anything but trap or turkeys. Barrels can't be opened up to modified because Browning made them too thin. Briley can fit them with their proprietary "thin wall" chokes but $$$$! A pawn shop on the edge of town on 93 going to Lolo had a huge gun collection with one very nice A5 Light Twelve at $450. That's a good price, let me look at it. Wow, this one is modified. I told the owner it should sell at twice that price. He said it had been on the rack for almost two years with multiple reductions. "You need to advertise it as a pheasant killer, then it will go. At least put modified on the tag." The A5 utilized the European choke labeling with asterisks stamped on the barrel. Most Americans don't know how to decipher the marking. Next week I dropped in and the shotgun was gone. The guy told me he took my advice on advertising and it sold in a couple of days.

Just before the taxidermy course finished I visited another pawn shop that was also an equipment rental. He had a small rack of guns with a twelve gauge Model 11 at $200. The gun was worn but not beat. Wood was good (very hard to find as Model 11 suffered from same design flaws as A5 re stock and fore end). Why so cheap? It's broke. Won't cycle. I looked it over. "Listen, I'm pretty sure I can fix this for you if you'll let me." No, he didn't care for that idea. "Okay, I'll buy it with a cheque on my Montana bank ... dated tomorrow. If I can't fix this gun I'll take it with me. If I fix it, you give me back my cheque and keep the shotgun." Okay, he liked that idea. "I'll get my tool bag from the car. But you gotta find me a hammer." You're kidding, right? "No, I need a hammer." Uh, well okay. It's your money. The hammer is used with a punch (in this case my small x-point screwdriver) to drive out pins holding the bolt in the receiver and the firing pin in the bolt. I tore the thing down on a countertop while the chap's wife looked after my grandson. The action was full of petrified cosmoline grease. Cleaned it up, put it back together, it cycled fine, and he was very happy to give me back my cheque. "Now, this is a great old gun but no shooting waterfowl with steel or the full choke barrel won't last a box of shells. And no one will ever find a replacement barrel [A5 and Model 11 barrels are not interchangeable]. Go down to the trap club and advertise it on the board as a great starter trap gun for a kid. Don't forget to mention it has good wood and recently gone through by a 'gunsmith'. You can double the price tag." I checked in with him before we left town and he sold it at the trap club. I hope it found a good home.
 
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