Muzzle Energy vs Recoil vs Rifle Weight for Dangerous Game

[Cheesehead]

I made some assumptions.

Which 416? I have added Rem Mag & Ruger and updated the Rigby to modern reload data so it is more relivant to what it is capable of achieving.
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Who is the masochist who owns an 8 lb 458 win mag? Why would a man do that to himself?

 

[BlueFlyer]

My question is where my rifle comes in right now!
Winchester M70 458 Win Mag at 8lbs…
Hornady 500gr at 2150ftps

 

[CZDiesel]

?

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Who is the masochist who owns an 8 lb 458 win mag? Why would a man do that to himself?

Right. An eight pound 30-06 can be a handful.

 

[BlueFlyer]

No point making judgments - if someone is comfortable and confident with their rifle then happy days.
I have added a few more cartridges into the table, plus some load and weight variations.

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

There is a "magic load" floating somewhere here abouts that'll get the venerable Jeff to 2400. Seems like the powder if RL17.

I'm pretty happy with 87 gr of 2000MR and ~2250 MV out of mine.

These are all low velocity cartridges except the 375H&H (to me, anything at 2400 or lower is "low velocity" ). For hunting animals at distances nearer than 100 yards, BC has no affect at all on ballistic arc, and very, very little on energy. And for that matter, 2200 vs 2400 fps on a 400 gr or heavier bullet doesn't move the needle meaningfully on energy, either. Yeah, it's a pretty big jump in energy, but no animal is going to know the difference between 3600 ft lbs and 4300 ft lbs.

400 gr bullet.
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The "Magic Load" for the 404J, as passed down from Von Gruff to @Shootist43 to me is:

84 grs H4350, Federal 215 primer, 400 gr Swift A Frame @ 2300 FPS. Under 1 MOA accuracy.

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

While not as much info as @Mark A Ouellette tables, Chuck Hawks has had basic recoil table for a huge number of rifle cartridges.

Rifle Recoil Table

 

[grand veneur]

The recoil is only noticeable on the shooting range. On the field it looks different. I once fired quickly one after the other 8 shots with my rifle caliber 500 Schüler in a spezial situation without registering any recoil.

 

[HookMeUpII]

Who is the masochist who owns an 8 lb 458 win mag? Why would a man do that to himself?

Well this is timely. I have never hunted DG but just (one hour ago) pulled the trigger for the first time on my Ruger No 1 Tropical in 458WM. The purchase of the rifle was intended, at some point, for DG.

It weighs in at 9 lbs so not 8 lbs but not far off either. I'll describe it this way. It is not a violent snap. It is not a heavy push. It's a violent heavy slam. It wasn't early morning but afterwards I was awake. No need for more coffee. It got my attention. Immediately after, my shoulder was tingly and numb. I had it seated well and was prepared. I'm not a particular lightweight either. I am about 5'10" and anywhere from 195-200 lbs.

I shoot mostly 300WM, I've shot 45-70, 30-30, 30-06, 308, and a 12ga with the old school Power Shok 3" magnum slugs. The only thing I can say that was comparable was the 12ga slug. 300WM seemed like shooting 223/5.56 after. They state it's 60-63 lbs of recoil. That's with the old 458WM run of the mill. Barnes, who I have spoken to and was using their ammo, loads long and hot. Which is now the norm. I'd imagine it's mid to upper 60's with modern loads.

I had the novel idea of having it reamed out to 458 Lott. That's no longer on the table.

The popularity of the 375HH makes sense now. The sectional density, manageable recoil, semi-availability of rounds. I imagine shooting the 458WM at DG the adrenaline would kick in you. You'll know it's kicking but probably won't feel it right away. It's definitely incentive to make a good first shot. You will likely feel it later when you're sitting around the campfire.

Anyone who tells you "Oh it's not that bad" is likely at least making a little light of it.

 

[CZDiesel]

Right. An eight pound 30-06 can be a handful.

Gotta remember Ontario I’m 6’3” and 250lbs… And the fact that yes it is 8lbs now but a Leupold VX6 1-6 and Talley bases and QD rings will be mounted on it which will bring it to around 9.5lbs and a little more with the sling

 

[Tra3]

@HookMeUpII and your above post is why I’m content to keep using the .375!!

 

[HookMeUpII]

@HookMeUpII and your above post is why I’m content to keep using the .375!!

It's a venerable and capable round. I had always wanted a No 1 Tropical big bore. In the big bore varieties, only 375HH and 458WM were produced in numbers. It just happened that a 458WM came up at a price too good to be true. I really wanted a 375HH.

Of course I may just buy a 375HH one day to have if the price is right (not necessarily in a Ruger No 1). I'd still probably use the 458WM for DG one day because I am one of the OCD, stupid people who apparently like being in pain.

 

[colorado]

I have a Rem XCR II in 375 Weatherby. It weighs 7.5 lbs with scope. With 375 H&H 300g A-Frames at 2550 fps it's a pussy cat (I think the synthetic stock soaks up some recoil). With 375 Weatherby rounds 300g at 2800 fps it's a bit snappy. It's also a pussy cat compared to my 12 lb 500 Jeffery. A Ruger No. 1 in 458 Win Mag should be shootable. My recommendation is do not have it rechambered for 458 Lott!

 

[HookMeUpII]

A Ruger No. 1 in 458 Win Mag should be shootable. My recommendation is do not have it rechambered for 458 Lott!

On the latter, I agree. There is absolutely no need. As for it being shootable? Sure it is. It's just not fun. It's not a rifle I'd take the range and practice with until the time comes to really get down to it. I'm sure there's a lot of technique involved too. Working through the movements to have it shouldered properly, perfecting your stance, etc.

 

[Northern Shooter]

Really illustrates how much of a step up the 450 Rigby performs over the 458 WM and Lott.

Are there any other cartridges that fit in between the 458 Lott and 500J in terms of ballistics and felt recoil?

 

[Jim Golden]

Really illustrates how much of a step up the 450 Rigby performs over the 458 WM and Lott.

Are there any other cartridges that fit in between the 458 Lott and 500J in terms of ballistics and felt recoil?

.460 Weatherby. I'm building one, right now, on an Enfield M1917 action, with an A-Square stock with two mercury recoil reducers. We'll see how hard it beats me Ballistics are hard to beat....

 

[Northern Shooter]

.460 Weatherby. I'm building one, right now, on an Enfield M1917 action, with an A-Square stock with two mercury recoil reducers. We'll see how hard it beats me Ballistics are hard to beat....

Doesn't the 460WBY top the 500J and 505 Gibbs in muzzle energy?

 

[Rafiki]

Who is the masochist who owns an 8 lb 458 win mag? Why would a man do that to himself?

Not me but I do shoot a 9lb Ruger No 1 in 500 Sharps 2 1/2", with my hand loads it's neat equivalent to a 9lb 500 NE. A bit uncomfortable off the bench but don't notice it when hunting. I think that's an important point. Although these guns do produce impressive statistics that are really relevant at the range, it's an entirely different story when actually hunting.

An hour ago I was at my club with my 375 H&H walking around shooting off-hand at various targets and distances, never noticed the recoil. Yes, it is the wimp on the list but still....

 

[Jim Golden]

Doesn't the 460WBY top the 500J and 505 Gibbs in muzzle energy?

I'm not sure. Maybe not. The .450 Jeffrey and the .460 Weatherby are basically the same thing. Only real difference is the Weatherby has a belt. Way back in the 1950's, Roy Weatherby took the .416 Rigby case, added a belt, and necked it down to .378. The thing was basically nuclear. He took it to Africa and waxxed an elephant with one round. But, the PH association got together with the .gov and basically banned anything under .40 for use on elephant. So Roy necked the .378 up to .458 and created the .460. Original loads were I think 2800 ft/s and 8100 ft/lbs of energy. They've since cut them back to I believe 2700 ft/s and about 7500 ft-lbs. The .450 Rigby is just the .416 necked up to .458 so it's exactly the same as the Weatherby. With handloads, they're basically identical. I'm not sure about factory loads. I think they're close. The over .50's might have even more. I'm pushing my limit with this one

 

[Northern Shooter]

I'm not sure. Maybe not. The .450 Jeffrey and the .460 Weatherby are basically the same thing. Only real difference is the Weatherby has a belt. Way back in the 1950's, Roy Weatherby took the .416 Rigby case, added a belt, and necked it down to .378. The thing was basically nuclear. He took it to Africa and waxxed an elephant with one round. But, the PH association got together with the .gov and basically banned anything under .40 for use on elephant. So Roy necked the .378 up to .458 and created the .460. Original loads were I think 2800 ft/s and 8100 ft/lbs of energy. They've since cut them back to I believe 2700 ft/s and about 7500 ft-lbs. The .450 Rigby is just the .416 necked up to .458 so it's exactly the same as the Weatherby. With handloads, they're basically identical. I'm not sure about factory loads. I think they're close. The over .50's might have even more. I'm pushing my limit with this one

Here in Canada they banned all cartridges that produce 10,000 Joules (~7,300 ft-lbs) or greater. The 460 WBY made the prohib list but the 500 Jeffery and 505 Gibbs (and 577NE) continue to be legal.