Mannlicher-Schoenauer in 9,3x64

[HWL]

You do not get it...I shot those rounds in a Brno ZKK 602 rifle. It has a Mauser lock at least as strong as any M98 actions...the RWS ammunition was dangerously overloaded..

Dear Pondoro....

In post #14 you gave the advice not to use RWS ammo or bullets because YOU had a pressure problem in YOUR rifle.

Pressure problems have happened, happen and will happen in the ammunition of every ammunition manufacturer all over this world.

It can happen, even to you, with every american made ammunition also!!!

To be on the save side, my advice was, to use a german made weapon, or a rifle from another CIP country, because they have to withstand an rigid prove test.

Whenever an american rifle is sold to CIP-Country it has to be CIP proved,..... and many of them are simply blown apart...

This is because the american companys are not forced by law to use strong materials.

They tend to use weaker materials, because they are easier to process, cheaper & weaker products are the results.

To compensate this, they load there ammunition on low pressure levels, which results in poor performance.

...These are the hard facts....

Be happy, you had an CIP proved Brno rifle, probably it saved your bacon




HWL

 

[HWL]

HWL, will it be possible to upload a photo of the safety on your Mannlicher Schoenauer..since one curios feature on my .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer is that there are two safety switches on my rifle..one on the right hand a sliding safety and then the flag safety..this lets me to believe my rifle does not have a collectors value since the slide safety is already fitted previously...this is why I am contemplating fitting the Redfield scope bases/mounts with the ghost ring , the one in the picture...I would like to hear your opinion in this regards????
Here is a photo of the side safety..

Hi Gert...

Your rifle has a collecturs value, and a high one!!!

At the early days of the Magnum Mannlicher, this savety was a special order, built-in at the Steyr factory.

There was, and still is, a discussion if it makes sence to have two safetys on a DG Rifle.

My 9,3x64 has, my .458 has not

The idea was to make it possible to unload the rifle in "save" condition.

With the mannlicher wing safety only, you only can unload in "fire" condition!

They wanted to copy the function of the three position Mauser savety, but finally, they did not matched this.

But anyways...

I never ever would drill or modify this rifle in any way.... a collector would consider this as a blasphemy!!!

Please,... do not do it.


HWL

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Gert, regarding the safety on the MCA, the earlier one was the same type in your photo. I believe it was 1963 when the "behind the bolt" sliding tang safety was added. I have a 1961 with the side safety and a 1965 with the tang safety.

Joe, thank you kindly for this information, it is much appreciated. Joe, I search GOOGLE and saw the 1950 MS did have the side safety , it does not lock the bolt like the flag safety ...I made use of the flag safety by substituting it with a Ghost ring I made ..it really worked great...I was thinking of purchasing that rear scope mount/ghost ring and just fit it but not fit the front scope ring since I then have to drill the front ring ..something I do not want to do...the rear scope ring bases will fit nicely since there are already two drill and tapped holes done by the MS company ....then I will have a nice ghost ring so I do not need to turn my flag safety into a ghost ring..

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Thank you HWL, your answer is much appreciated..no I will not drill/tap the Mannlicher Schoenauer rifle ..I did use it on the Elephant hunting course in the Kruger National park conducted by The Southern African Wildlife College ...while shooting the large size elephant targets from different angles with open sights I really did get great groupings of hand. I believe the .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer was not and is not a rifle you can fit a scope to since it is a dangerous game rifle shooting distances up to fifty meters...if you can not get withing fifty meters of a buffalo or elephant to shoot it then you should rather only hunt plains game...every Dangerous game animal has to be shot within fifty meters at least, this is what I perceive as Dangerous game hunting , and with an iron sight heavy caliber rifle ...as pointed out...this is my opinion , and my opinion alone....

 

[HWL]

The .458 Win-Mag MC (top) from 1962 and the 9,3x64 MCA from 1968

.458 with wing safety only, 9,3 with additional tang safety.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

The .458 Win-Mag MC (top) from 1962 and the 9,3x64 MCA from 1968

.458 with wing safety only, 9,3 with additional tang safety.
View attachment 249692

HWL, you have two beautiful rifles..the .458 MS is an exact copy of mine ..just without the side safety...yes, these rifles really is in a league of their own...thank you for the informative posts and other members as well..

 

[Gert Odendaal]

The 9.3 x64 has a beautiful gracefull, slim rifle stock..an exact copy of this rifle stock will be what I want to build for my 8x68S Mauser... I will just make the fore part longer ...

 

[HWL]

Thank you HWL, your answer is much appreciated..no I will not drill/tap the Mannlicher Schoenauer rifle ..

Dear Gert,...you made my day....

I will bring the .458 Win-Mag to the black powder shot in spring 2019.... we can shoot it as a pair...


HWL

 

[HWL]

The 9.3 x64 has a beautiful gracefull, slim rifle stock..an exact copy of this rifle stock will be what I want to build for my 8x68S Mauser... I will just make the fore part longer ...

The fore part a bit longer, made of a red wood, without all the white spacers and with a red "Old English" Pachmayr recoil pad....



HWL

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Thank you HWL, your answer is much appreciated..no I will not drill/tap the Mannlicher Schoenauer rifle ..

Dear Gert,...you made my day....

I will bring the .458 Win-Mag to the black powder shot in spring 2019.... we can shoot ist as a pair...


HWL[/QUOTE]
I will definitively do a write-up for a Gun Magazine about the two .458 Mannlicher Schoenauers hunting in Africa again...we can hunt kudu, impala and warthog..I will discuss this with Willie Barnard, I am really sure he will think it to be a great idea...naturally we will do a nice write-up with a lot of photos as usual...the last two days of the Black Powder hunt is for your own bill and your own venison/biltong or meat ....

 

[HWL]

...we should have a "Mannlicher-Schoenauer iron sights only shoot & hunt"

Do you think, there are enough freaks for something like this in South Africa?


HWL

 

[Gert Odendaal]

The .458 Win-Mag MC (top) from 1962 and the 9,3x64 MCA from 1968

.458 with wing safety only, 9,3 with additional tang safety.
View attachment 249692

Still I like the slender graceful long design..if I substitute the soup bowl cheek piece and keep the butt stock straight or to keep it as classical as possible by adding a double shadow line cheek piece like in this photo it will , I think be a beautiful rifle stock design for a 8x68S Mauser rifle stock..so I have to make a choice between straight flat butt stock....or this double shadow line cheek piece...

 

[Gert Odendaal]

...we should have a "Mannlicher-Schoenauer iron sights only shoot & hunt"

Do you think, there are enough freaks for something like this in South Africa?


HWL

I know a serious Mannlicher Schoenauer collector on one of the other forums, there are still a lot of original Mannlicher Schoenauers in South Africa....If we arrange a Mannlicher Schoenauer open sights only hunting I assure you we will have more participants than we will be able to accommodate on such a hunt... Almost all of these original Mannlicher Schoenauers are rifles given from one generation to the next generation....

 

[HWL]

I know a serious Mannlicher Schoenauer collector on one of the other forums, there are still a lot of original Mannlicher Schoenauers in South Africa....If we arrange a Mannlicher Schoenauer open sights only hunting I assure you we will have more participants than we will be able to accommodate on such a hunt... Almost all of these original Mannlicher Schoenauers are rifles given from one generation to the next generation....

Ok, than let's have a minimum calber requirement of 9,3mm



HWL

 

[Pondoro]

Dear Pondoro....

In post #14 you gave the advice not to use RWS ammo or bullets because YOU had a pressure problem in YOUR rifle.

Pressure problems have happened, happen and will happen in the ammunition of every ammunition manufacturer all over this world.

It can happen, even to you, with every american made ammunition also!!!

To be on the save side, my advice was, to use a german made weapon, or a rifle from another CIP country, because they have to withstand an rigid prove test.

Whenever an american rifle is sold to CIP-Country it has to be CIP proved,..... and many of them are simply blown apart...

This is because the american companys are not forced by law to use strong materials.

They tend to use weaker materials, because they are easier to process, cheaper & weaker products are the results.

To compensate this, they load there ammunition on low pressure levels, which results in poor performance.

...These are the hard facts....

Be happy, you had an CIP proved Brno rifle, probably it saved your bacon




HWL

There is some truth in what you say...particulary that US ammo manufacturers download certain calibres too much..

This however has more to do with fear from facing law suits from people who fire fresh modern ammunition in old substandard rifles.....than current US made rifles being substandard.....you have any source to prove that US made rifles fly apart when CIP pressure tested..?

The American law practice is very different from Europes..

It is a fact that RWS are known to load hot...maybe to hot...as that .375 ammo I shot was...see Pauls post indicating that it is rather common..

It is (sadly) also a fact that the ammo sold by and marked Westley Richards for double rifles are overloaded...to the point that the English gunsmiths refuse to use it. This ammunition is made by Wolfgang Romey for Westley Richards..

I have personally seen an old Holland&Holland take.down rifle in .275H&H Belted jammed shut after shooting this crazy overloaded ammo...thank God it had an M98 action..the rifle needed assistance from a gunsmith to even open the bolt..

Why Wolfgang Romey load like this is beyond me..

 

[Gert Odendaal]

A classic example of where a caliber is downloaded in the USA is the 8x57JS . The Mauser 8x57I was designed by the Germans with a .318" bore shooting a 157 gn spitzer bullet...and later through the war changed it to a .323"bore and 197 gn bullet..to prevent shooters firing a .323 " bullet in a .318" bore this caliber was downloaded while here in Africa you can load it much hotter ...shooting heavy bullets at higher velocities is what the 8x57JS likes...

 

[Red Leg]

RWS made and still makes some of the finest ammunition on the planet. I have used it since the seventies in 6.5x57/57R and 7x57/57R. And no I don't shoot the 7mm in old military rifles. Never the slightest indication of over pressure in a properly proofed rifle. But HWL is correct, we have no meaningful proofing requirements in this country. Gert, you are correct, ammunition manufacturers in this country are correctly scared shooters will try to run JS through .318 hunting rifles. Using correct RWS loads or handloads, both the .323 and .318 can really strut their stuff.

 

[HWL]

There is some truth in what you say...particulary that US ammo manufacturers download certain calibres too much..

This however has more to do with fear from facing law suits from people who fire fresh modern ammunition in old substandard rifles.....than current US made rifles being substandard.....you have any source to prove that US made rifles fly apart when CIP pressure tested..?

The American law practice is very different from Europes..

It is a fact that RWS are known to load hot...maybe to hot...as that .375 ammo I shot was...see Pauls post indicating that it is rather common..

It is (sadly) also a fact that the ammo sold by and marked Westley Richards for double rifles are overloaded...to the point that the English gunsmiths refuse to use it. This ammunition is made by Wolfgang Romey for Westley Richards..

I have personally seen an old Holland&Holland take.down rifle in .275H&H Belted jammed shut after shooting this crazy overloaded ammo...thank God it had an M98 action..the rifle needed assistance from a gunsmith to even open the bolt..

Why Wolfgang Romey load like this is beyond me..

 

[Pondoro]

Maybe I derailed this thread a bit....lets go back to MS rifles...I have 2 myself, one in 6,5x54MS and a 1910 in 9,57x57MS..lovely rifles....

 

[HWL]

There is a significant difference between hot and too hot.

RWS loads hot, and this is ok for all thouse having reliable strong firearms.

Because it is performance what we want!

Sometimes it happens, that a load is too hot.

But this can happen to every ammunition manufatorer of the world.

This is, why I think it is not reasonable to say: "Never ever buy RWS ammunition, because I once had one load that was too hot".

Wolfgang Romey is another chapter... as far as I know, he is out of buissenes,.... prosecutor seems to have stopped all his activities.

Nobudy really knows what happen.


HWL