Lion hunts in RSA

[shakari]

Jaco

As I see it, captive bred lion shooting (NOT hunting) IS a disgusting and despicable practice and the only reasons it happens is clients wants to decorate a trophy room and gain bragging rights without doing things the right way and those selling these shoots simply want the money....... it's not hunting, it's nothing like hunting, it has nothing to do with hunting and it never will have anything to do with hunting. Greed and the desire for self aggrandisment are the only reasons for it. - And it also incidentally puts ammo in the hands of the anti hunters to use as a weapon against us.......... which is exactly what's happening now if you care to check the net.

To me TRUE hunting is well described in the words of Sher Jung who wrote Tryst With Tigers:

The jungle is the place to test one's mettle and one's skill. It is a place for personal and individual adventure. To tackle the adversary on the ground of it's own choosing and to outwit it in it's own game of woodcraft is the real joy and thrill of hunting. Always remember that hunting is not just killing animals, it is much more than killing; Killing is the least important part of it.

And the shooting of captive bred lions is the direct opposite of that.

At the end of the day, the pro arguments will never hold water simply because the practice is indefensible and it's impossible to defend the indefensible.

I know those comments won't earn me many friends here but that's how I feel about it...... I hope my feelings & comments don't cause offence to anyone...... they probably will though! LOL

 

[enysse]

Jaco, your last reply pretty much summed it up! Good job!

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Jaco

As I see it, captive bred lion shooting (NOT hunting) IS a disgusting and despicable practice and the only reasons it happens is clients wants to decorate a trophy room and gain bragging rights without doing things the right way and those selling these shoots simply want the money....... it's not hunting, it's nothing like hunting, it has nothing to do with hunting and it never will have anything to do with hunting. Greed and the desire for self aggrandisment are the only reasons for it. - And it also incidentally puts ammo in the hands of the anti hunters to use as a weapon against us.......... which is exactly what's happening now if you care to check the net.

To me TRUE hunting is well described in the words of Sher Jung who wrote Tryst With Tigers:

The jungle is the place to test one's mettle and one's skill. It is a place for personal and individual adventure. To tackle the adversary on the ground of it's own choosing and to outwit it in it's own game of woodcraft is the real joy and thrill of hunting. Always remember that hunting is not just killing animals, it is much more than killing; Killing is the least important part of it.

And the shooting of captive bred lions is the direct opposite of that.

At the end of the day, the pro arguments will never hold water simply because the practice is indefensible and it's impossible to defend the indefensible.

I know those comments won't earn me many friends here but that's how I feel about it...... I hope my feelings & comments don't cause offence to anyone...... they probably will though! LOL

Shakari, if we all had to live by Sher Jung we would need spears to hunt kudu due to the fact that that is probably what he used when he wrote his little piece, personally I am no rice fan.

Safaris have moved on with the times, years ago big 5 safaris were several months now they are 14 - 21 days even in SA, don't get me wrong I would have loved to live in the early trophy hunting days but they are over.

Don't worry about making friends, it is over rated , you seem to mention this in every post, for the record, I like you because you have your way of seeing the world as I and many other have ours, the latter should not be a determining factor in friendships as each of us have our own identity and more important ethic.

So lion hunting should be for the filthy rich and extravagant spender, I get it........I believe we are at a brick wall as every single time you and I have had this conversation....

My very best always

Excuse me though if I don't agree ....

 

[shakari]

Jaco

I appreciate that a lot of hunters want a lion for their trophy room and can't afford it but that's life........ I'd like a mid 60s Mercedes SL but I can't afford one.........and that's part of life. We can't always have everything we want.

To suggest I instead buy a soft top smart car and tell everyone it's a mid 60s Merc SL is as ridiculous as putting a canned lion in a trophy room and expecting people to think it was hunted instead of executed.

Incidentally, Sher Jung was a very good hunter that took an awful lot of dangerous and other game with a rifle and on foot...... just as it should be done and just as it can still be done.

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Shakari, no one or at least not myself is insinuating in any way, that it should be regarded as anything else than what it is... that is the whole point it should be portrayed in a truthful manner...

But saying that all these hunts are terrible experiences is the only big fat lie out there, many are great experiences, and I have done both wild lion and ranch lion hunts, as you have so many times said yourself they should and can not be compared...

My best always

 

[Buff-Buster]

Jaco,
I agree 100% with you. I will be going to SA in July on a "Captive Bred" lion hunt. I have researched the outfitter and they follow the letter of the law when it comes to the reqirements. Do I expect the same experience as hunting a wild lion in Zim or Tanzania? No, I do not. Will I portray the hunt as such upon my return. No I will not. It is a decision that I thought long and hard about before booking. I will never be able to partake in a truly "wild lion" hunt. That is just reality. My funds will never allow it unless I hit the Lotto. This is the next best thing available and judging by the USFW decision over the importation of sport hunted elephant from Zim and Tanzania, I felt I must do it soon.

I am very concerned by the division I see happening within the hunting faternity. Hunting is a spiritual endeavor and the actual reasons that drive all of us is personal. As long as someone follows the letter of the law in pursuing any game, who has the right to judge that person? I certainly do not. More and more I am seeing our ranks bickering over their ethics are better than someone else's ethics. Bow hunters vs rifle hunters, Compound bow hunters vs traditional longbow hunters, etc. If a fellow hunter is abiding by the law it is his choice. The hunting faternity should support that choice. I'm not saying we cannot have differing opinions, just that "united we stand - divided we fall".

Just a thought: In an effort to futher justify the captive breed lions issue in SA, what if a percentage of all lion trophy fees went toward conservation programs in countries with wild lions? I believe most hunters of captive breed lions would embrace this idea even if it ment higher trophy fees. The general view that is being promoted by opponents of captive bred lion hunting is that the only one benefiting from the lion's death is the Owner and/or Outfitter, not the lions. Not debating that issue, just stating what I have read in multiple places.

Disclaimer: This is in no way directed at illegal "canned hunts" which are also defined by law.

By the way, if you don't think captive bred lion hunting can be dangerous, get Jacques Spamer to tell you about his encounter with a captive bred lioness this past week. She landed on his feet after a brain shot at three meters!





Just my two cents...

 

[shakari]

I'm not aware that anyone has suggested captive bred lion shooting (NOT hunting) is necessarily any less dangerous than hunting a truly wild lion........ if fact, the opposite could be well argued but that doesn't make a captive bred lion shoot comparable in any way to a proper wild lion hunt.

That said, if they're still under the influence, it's not always impossible to walk up to them with a brass band playing and slap 'em on the arse with a cricket bat!

Here's an idea, why not take a blood sample of your dead lion after you've shot it and have it analysed to see if there's any drugs still in it!

I'm not suggesting there will be. Just that there could be and at least you'll have a genuine idea of if the animal was released days or hours before you shot it.

 

[peras]

I'm not aware that anyone has suggested captive bred lion shooting (NOT hunting) is necessarily any less dangerous than hunting a truly wild lion........ if fact, the opposite could be well argued but that doesn't make a captive bred lion shoot comparable in any way to a proper wild lion hunt.

That said, if they're still under the influence, it's not always impossible to walk up to them with a brass band playing and slap 'em on the arse with a cricket bat!

Here's an idea, why not take a blood sample of your dead lion after you've shot it and have it analysed to see if there's any drugs still in it!

I'm not suggesting there will be. Just that there could be and at least you'll have a genuine idea of if the animal was released days or hours before you shot it.

Good idea Shakari, no problem with testing. You have just made a positive suggestion to manage captive bred lion hunting(or shooting) if you wish.

 

[shakari]

Pieter

Personally, I'd rather see the whole thing shut down for good and klaar than managed but I guess something is better than nothing.

At least the bloke knows what it is he's shooting rather than being conned by some dodgy bastard trying to tell him he's on a proper hunt.

 

[BRICKBURN]

Good idea Shakari, no problem with testing. You have just made a positive suggestion to manage captive bred lion hunting(or shooting) if you wish.

Any suggestions on a reputable company that could provide this service to hunters?

 

[peras]

Any suggestions on a reputable company that could provide this service to hunters?

The same companies that does it in all sports should be able to do this. Only problem I can think of is whether traces of the drug will still be in the sample after the legal 96 hours.

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

No problem with toxocology tests, only problem i still have shakari is that you are tarring everyone with the same brush.

If legal requirements state 96 hours and a cat is harvested 118 hours later what would the toxocology result be?

We are not all con artists, some of us have been in this industry for many years and pride ourselves in our reputations, we did not receive our dangerous game ratings in two weeks we did the hard slog for many years to achieve this accreditation this pure fact alone give myself, Jacques and many of the other outfitters on here a level of self respect for one and a certain level of operational integrity.....

Once we have established the time it takes for these sustances to get out of a system 6 weeks, 96 hours, it could be done but until then we would only be providing guys with ammunition all based on assumption....... and as we know the latter is the mother of all screw ups!

I would also prefer a longer wilding period and will be a camp fighter for it but up until then I will abide by the current law....

Hang me for it!

My best always

 

[shakari]

The point is the blood test will tell you if drugs were present in the animal's system when it was shot or if it was still drugged...... a drugged cat is a drugged cat no matter how long anyone claims it's been loose and anyone who shoots or PHs such an animal should hang their heads in shame........ but as far as I'm concerned, a captive bred lion whether drugged or not, is ALWAYS a captive bred lion and will NEVER be a wild lion or behave like one. - Which is why I say these animals are shot rather than hunted.

If I had my way, ALL lion breeding right across the continent would be made illegal and the entire industry would be shut down tomorrow because there is no justification for it whatsoever and all it does for real hunting is harm it.

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

I beg to differ, trace elements could be present 6 weeks later, take cocaine and marijuana... users might not be under the influence at time of testing, but still test positive.

Once one establishes the time it takes for trace elements to leave the blood this could be a reasonably good way to control hunts.... wilding periods and trace element duration should be worked together.

As for now the law states 96 hours and no cat will be under the influence of any drug after 96 hours.

My best always

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

Jaco for PHASA president. VOTE now!

 

[shakari]

If there are drugs in the system, there are drugs in the system and any cat with any drugs is the system is a confused cat and therefore shouldn't be shot........ even if there are no drugs in it's system whatsoever, these animals won't know the terrain, the area, the escape routes, the boundaries or the watering points which is a completely artificial situation and therefore yet another reason why it/they shouldn't be shot........ which is why I say the whole practice is disgusting and despicable and has nothing to do with real hunting of any kind, least of all real lion hunting.

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Jaco for PHASA president. VOTE now!

Give me 10 I'll only do that once i retire... funny Marius

My best always

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

If there are drugs in the system, there are drugs in the system and any cat with any drugs is the system is a confused cat and therefore shouldn't be shot........ even if there are no drugs in it's system whatsoever, these animals won't know the terrain, the area, the escape routes, the boundaries or the watering points which is a completely artificial situation and therefore yet another reason why it/they shouldn't be shot........ which is why I say the whole practice is disgusting and 6despicable and has nothing to do with real hunting of any kind, least of all real lion hunting.

I believe you are missing the basics of toxicology 101. That's not the point though, you have made yours, we, myself and many others differ from your opinion.

That is fine, your opinions of myself as PROFESSIONAL hunter because i do hunt captive bred lions are clearly obvious, now that we have sorted this out.

JamieD can possibly find a place in RSA to hunt lion, hopefully this thread informed everyone that was not aware of the facts.

Hopefully those who market these hunts do so with complete transparency, as they very well should.

My very best always

 

[Norwegianwoods]

I beg to differ, trace elements could be present 6 weeks later, take cocaine and marijuana... users might not be under the influence at time of testing, but still test positive.

Once one establishes the time it takes for trace elements to leave the blood this could be a reasonably good way to control hunts.... wilding periods and trace element duration should be worked together.

As for now the law states 96 hours and no cat will be under the influence of any drug after 96 hours.

My best always

I very much agree with you, but I also think that "hunting" a lion released only 96 or a few days more prior to the "hunt" has nothing to do with hunting.
I can understand the adrenalin rush it might be if the lion is not sedated anymore and feel a bit cranky, but hunting it is not.

I would feel much better about the hunting of captive bred lions issue if the lion was released into an area of proper size minimum 3 months before the hunt starts.
The question is how to control it, and how can the client be totally sure that the lion has lived for minimum 3 months inside the hunting area?

 

[peras]

:bolt::bolt:

If there are drugs in the system, there are drugs in the system and any cat with any drugs is the system is a confused cat and therefore shouldn't be shot........ even if there are no drugs in it's system whatsoever, these animals won't know the terrain, the area, the escape routes, the boundaries or the watering points which is a completely artificial situation and therefore yet another reason why it/they shouldn't be shot........ which is why I say the whole practice is disgusting and despicable and has nothing to do with real hunting of any kind, least of all real lion hunting.

Some of these lions seem to use performance enhancing drugs!