Lion hunts in RSA

[BRICKBURN]

So, know any places to tell JamieD where to go look for a Lion?

 

[redriver]

I used to think the same as Capstick but a number of things have changed my mind. To me there is a huge difference between hunting a lion, or any game, on a large area where the animal can exist naturally and shooting an animal that is put out in a pen just before the hunter arrives. That is canned!
To hunt totally free range lion these days will start out around $40k on the very low side.
This, like many hunt prices today, keeps alot of guys out of the field not to mention what is doing to the future of the sport. But that is a topic for another day.
If a guy wants to have the experience of hunting lion but cannot spend $40k+, more power to him if a ranch hunt satisfies his own set of values.
I hunted lion on a large ranch that had plenty of lion on it. It was a great hunt that allowed me to step back in time a bit and be part of a very special event and I would do it again. I do not hunt for the record book nor the approval of others, just the experience. My 2 cents

 

[Capstick]

OK as a 'gamekeeper' what's your opinion on Bird hunting, Game Birds & Pheasant specifically, in the UK? By and large They're bred, released and shot within meters of their release! Does this fall into the same category as the Lion in your opinion?
You're quite happy to crit SA's wildlife ideas and practices but not so happy to check your own back yard! Are these wild deer not enclosed by any fencing at all? They can roam the length and breadth of the Island can they? Not even the neighbors have fences that happen to ring fence an Estate? They may be wild in a sense, but I truly believe that they're managed too one way or another and thus they are 'farmed' too! Isn't that what the 'Gamekeepers' job is? That's a question not a statement...what are a Gamekeepers responsibilities?

Any game in the UK can walk from the bottom of England to the tip of the Scottish highlands full stop. A released pheasant can walk were ever it wants, it doesn't have to stay on the estate it was released on.

Rather than try and attack me and my country why don't you just face facts that true big game hunting is about wild game not released animals. Your all just trying to justify it to yourselves.

I have better things to do than waste time on here so all the very best to you and your so called hunting.

 

[Second Wind]

I am left to wonder how a deer gets through that London traffic and then if that works out does he take the train or hire a car to get to Scotland?

These are things I sometimes ponder.

But, in deference to Cap, I have been to London and while there actually ran into a wild thing, I may still have her number.

Darling girl. Smelled of strawberries as I recall.

but I digress

 

[Nyati]

So, know any places to tell JamieD where to go look for a Lion?

If 46.000acres is big enough, Serapa Safaris | Experience the luxury of the African dream

They have some nice cats, here s a picture of myself and one of the residents

 

[Skyline]

Well I have not participated in the AH forum for some time and had a look around while retrieving a couple of PM's.

When I read this last page of yet another canned lion hunt thread I would have sworn I was reading posts on another forum instead of AH.

 

[35bore]

Skyline,

Think you just came in at a bad time, . Seems there are some who try to push their belief's and "values" off on others, but, when others push back the instigators get pissy. Oh well, welcome back.

 

[BRICKBURN]

Well I have not participated in the AH forum for some time and had a look around while retrieving a couple of PM's.

When I read this last page of yet another canned lion hunt thread I would have sworn I was reading posts on another forum instead of AH.

With a few I had that sense too.
Sometimes it is hard to corral the critters and herd them in the right direction.

 

[BRICKBURN]

If 46.000acres is big enough, Serapa Safaris | Experience the luxury of the African dream

They have some nice cats, here s a picture of myself and one of the residents

Nyati, thanks for the information on a hunt. Appreciated. Maybe JamieD can use it.

 

[JamieD]

I hadn't checked the site in a while and was very surprised to see the mess I had started. My personal feeling is that there are plenty of people outside the hunting community to get mad at us for what we are doing. We need to be respectful of others for there beliefs. I asked the original question to get opinions to help form my own opinion.

My personal feeling is that God gave the animals to man to take care of and use for our needs and enjoyment. It is our duty to be good stewards of what we have been given. To me this means that we need to do what we can to make their life and or death as comfortable and painless as possible.

Is this in a 6 foot cage at the zoo, (I don't think so). Is this in a 10 acre pen with plenty to eat and trees to lay under, (I believe so).

Beyond that if it is sporting to hunt an animal in a enclosure of a given size is up to the individual.

I do appreciate the responses, they have helped me to form my opinion.

I believe that I would be very comfortable hunting on a good sized area if I felt the outfitter was of good reputation.

Thanks again

 

[Bwannabe]

I think Chapstick, er I mean Capstick probably has never hunted anything, by its standards even many of the North American hunts would be canned. In europe I have seen 10 acre pens with fallow deer and high stands in that pen. I have seen many estates in England that had high fence pens, might cover 100 acres but still high fence and then they drive the game over the hunters, is that in fact hunting?

With regards to the cost of a wild lion hunt that would put hundreds of hunts a year out of the price range.

 

[daved]

I hadn't checked the site in a while and was very surprised to see the mess I had started. My personal feeling is that there are plenty of people outside the hunting community to get mad at us for what we are doing. We need to be respectful of others for there beliefs. I asked the original question to get opinions to help form my own opinion.

My personal feeling is that God gave the animals to man to take care of and use for our needs and enjoyment. It is our duty to be good stewards of what we have been given. To me this means that we need to do what we can to make their life and or death as comfortable and painless as possible.

Is this in a 6 foot cage at the zoo, (I don't think so). Is this in a 10 acre pen with plenty to eat and trees to lay under, (I believe so).

Beyond that if it is sporting to hunt an animal in a enclosure of a given size is up to the individual.

I do appreciate the responses, they have helped me to form my opinion.

I believe that I would be very comfortable hunting on a good sized area if I felt the outfitter was of good reputation.

Thanks again

I have to agree. Elephants are almost out of the window for American hunters. What's going to be next.
Hunting us being attacked from all corners, and natural habitat is diminishing yearly.
The SA ranch cats are unfortunately the future of lion hunting.
$25k for a nice male lion on 25 000acres or $50k Mozambique $70k in Dande Zimbabwe or 90k in Matetsi Zimbawe for a wild lion.
It's a choice. We need to respect people's choices.
Best regards
Dave

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

I have to agree. Elephants are almost out of the window for American hunters. What's going to be next.
Hunting us being attacked from all corners, and natural habitat is diminishing yearly.
The SA ranch cats are unfortunately the future of lion hunting.
$25k for a nice male lion on 25 000acres or $50k Mozambique $70k in Dande Zimbabwe or 90k in Matetsi Zimbawe for a wild lion.
It's a choice. We need to respect people's choices.
Best regards
Dave

Agreed Dave 100% just a slight correction Moz would be around 60 - 70 k now... I know I know you're thinking wise ass! Probably going to type it too..... .
What we often forget and you as well as Jamie touched on is the fact that if one goes.... All of it is in jeopardy... and eventually will go.

We seem to be like the old NP, KP and HNP political parties facing down the barrel of the ANC.
Splitting our votes and loyalties into many smaller groups, only makes us weaker and easier to wipeout as a "fraternity"

My best always

 

[peras]

Agreed Dave 100% just a slight correction Moz would be around 60 - 70 k now... I know I know you're thinking wise ass! Probably going to type it too..... .
What we often forget and you as well as Jamie touched on is the fact that if one goes.... All of it is in jeopardy... and eventually will go.

We seem to be like the old NP, KP and HNP political parties facing down the barrel of the ANC.
Splitting our votes and loyalties into many smaller groups, only makes us weaker and easier to wipeout as a "fraternity"

My best always

A very true and good example you use. Rather stand together and help with the management of the process.

 

[daved]

WISE ASS

Hahaha but u understand my point
My best always
Dave

 

[shakari]

It's not about how big the area is, it's about how long the lion has been in the area and the cold, hard truth is virtually all lions in that neck of the woods have only been in the area a matter of days and possibly only hours before the so called hunter arrives.

At best, the lion doesn't know the area, it's escape routes or it's watering points and at worst, it's still under the influence of drugs and doesn't know which way is up and there's plenty of examples of such things on You Tube etc.

Anyone who thinks captive bred lions are released into an area for any significant wilding period is (quite honestly) deluded. All you have to do is pull out a calculator and add up the cost of the wild game they'd eat for said wilding period and then look at the cost of the hunt and you'll quickly see the costs don't come anywhere near adding up.

Don't for a moment think these things only happen in RSA because they don't. There's barely an African country that allows hunting where it doesn't happen and all you have to do to find proof of that is look on the CITES site and see how many permits are issued for transport of live lions for the purposes of 'travelling circuses'. - That's just the legal ones and doesn't even beging to address the smuggling that goes on across the porous borders of Africa.

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

True..... Current legislation is 96 hours, drugged lions are most definitely NOT the norm.... and I am sure all of us agree that such operators should be rooted out of the system.......

I like many other would like to see a prolonged "Wilding"...I do not believe we would get much resistance from hunting outfitters, breeders possibly...

As mentioned above I believe that slamming the issue is no way to bring about change, we should be proactive and see how it possibly could be changed...

IMO, all Lions captive bred and or wilderness Lions are under the spot light, one will not be stopped without the other.

These guys are out to stop it all, and having a split (publicly) amongst hunters is by no means helping the issue...

My best always

 

[shakari]

True..... Current legislation is 96 hours, drugged lions are most definitely NOT the norm.... and I am sure all of us agree that such operators should be rooted out of the system.......

I like many other would like to see a prolonged "Wilding"...I do not believe we would get much resistance from hunting outfitters, breeders possibly...

As mentioned above I believe that slamming the issue is no way to bring about change, we should be proactive and see how it possibly could be changed...

IMO, all Lions captive bred and or wilderness Lions are under the spot light, one will not be stopped without the other.

These guys are out to stop it all, and having a split (publicly) amongst hunters is by no means helping the issue...

My best always

Mate, you know as well as I do that current legislation can't even come close to being enforced......... this is a country that can't even collect it's road tolls or run it's courts in a properly organised manner and if it can't do those things, there's not a hope in hell they can enforce a wilding period.

As for drugged lions not being the norm, I'd say there's a VERY significant percentage that are shot whilst under the influence and as I said previously, there's PLENTY of evidence of such things all over the net, especially on You Tube.

I agree that ALL lions are indeed under the spotlight but as I see it, nothing can be achieved by concealing the truth and to deny these things happen or to deny that captive lion shooting is a despicable and disgusting practice is concealing the truth.

Personally, I reckon that the lion and lion hunting is doomed due to a variety of things such as political correctness and incorrect assessment of the entire situation by everyone and I do mean everyone, concerned........ but I also believe a significant part of the blame must be laid firmly at the feet of those who breed & shoot captive bred lions.

I appreciate my comments will put a few noses out of joint but frankly, I don't care about that........ What I do care about is the future of lions and proper lion hunting and I reckon their/it's days are numbered and whilst not entirely the fault of those involved in these dodgy lion shoots, it is at least partly, their own bloody fault!

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Shakari, whether or not government has the ability to enforce or not is besides the point, it is the law..... at this point in time........., government can also not police illegal fire arms properly, but should legal fire arm owners be held responsible for that???

As far as operational integrity or lets for arguments sake use the term legality to avoid any semantic arguments, I would say that most operations conform to the law, one might say that I am speculating, and my reply would be.. That I'm not.

SHAKARI I believe you are judging quite harshly, you might see it as disgusting and despicable,... but many don't...

I for one say it like it is, when discussing a South African lion with a potential client, I have the luxury of being able to offer both wild and South African captive bred lion to my clients, and to be honest the majority do not or can not spend $65K on a Mozambique Lion.

I do not see how it can be sold as a lie, upon completion of a safari a client needs to sign a document and in big bold print it states right at the top...

THE HUNTING OF A CAPTIVE BRED LION....

Now I also understand that some dubious outfitters market under false intentions but to be honest they are morons due to the fact that they are obviously un aware that their clients will need to sign such a document...

Point is every single client has the choice on what he or she would want to do, neither you nor I can play the role of decision maker on their behalf. I firmly believe that the truth must be told upon booking or rather before booking.... sorry.

I also truly believe that a longer wilding period would be beneficial to the entire industry.

Lion hunting is doomed without captive bred lion, it all started in the years of calling on the borders of national parks, this raised awareness initially.

As mentioned earlier public differences of my ethic is larger than yours..... when it all boils down to I am allowed to hunt a lion because my pay check is larger than yours and that is why I am in the select few to hunt wild lion and you suck because you hunt lions that were bred in captivity is not doing the industry any favours.

My best always

 

[peras]

Shakari, whether or not government has the ability to enforce or not is besides the point, it is the law..... at this point in time........., government can also not police illegal fire arms properly, but should legal fire arm owners be held responsible for that???

As far as operational integrity or lets for arguments sake use the term legality to avoid any semantic arguments, I would say that most operations conform to the law, one might say that I am speculating, and my reply would be.. That I'm not.

SHAKARI I believe you are judging quite harshly, you might see it as disgusting and despicable,... but many don't...

I for one say it like it is, when discussing a South African lion with a potential client, I have the luxury of being able to offer both wild and South African captive bred lion to my clients, and to be honest the majority do not or can not spend $65K on a Mozambique Lion.

I do not see how it can be sold as a lie, upon completion of a safari a client needs to sign a document and in big bold print it states right at the top...

THE HUNTING OF A CAPTIVE BRED LION....

Now I also understand that some dubious outfitters market under false intentions but to be honest they are morons due to the fact that they are obviously un aware that their clients will need to sign such a document...

Point is every single client has the choice on what he or she would want to do, neither you nor I can play the role of decision maker on their behalf. I firmly believe that the truth must be told upon booking or rather before booking.... sorry.

I also truly believe that a longer wilding period would be beneficial to the entire industry.

Lion hunting is doomed without captive bred lion, it all started in the years of calling on the borders of national parks, this raised awareness initially.

As mentioned earlier public differences of my ethic is larger than yours..... when it all boils down to I am allowed to hunt a lion because my pay check is larger than yours and that is why I am in the select few to hunt wild lion and you suck because you hunt lions that were bred in captivity is not doing the industry any favours.

My best always

Quite correct. I do not think that at the moment in South Africa it is possible to sell a captive bred hunt as anything else than what it is. It is up to us as the hunting fraternity to regulate and protect what we do.