Lion hunts in RSA

[peras]

This is going nowhere. I am totally with Jaco on his arguments and see all as valid points. I understand where Steve is coming from but do not agree with him. Personally lions form part of my business and I will carry on as long as it is legal.
I find the captive bred hunts to test all skills from tracking to observing to outwitting to keeping nerve.
I do not think one can judge anything legal without proper firsthand experience.

 

[shakari]

:nofeed:

Thanks Marius.

you've just proved my point about Ad Hominem: Ad hominem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Which means 'attack the man when you can't win the argument'

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

I do not think one can judge anything legal without proper firsthand experience.

This, Pieter was exactly my point when I asked how many Captive bred lion hunts Shakari has engaged in.

Shakari, its not about attacking a man you are arguing against. Its about you personally offering "advice" to fellow hunters on a subject you have ZERO experience on, then having the audacity to tell the Hunting Contractors here on this site, that we are just as bad as the ones you see on Youtube. Is that not an attack in itself? ( ...and quite a slap in my face, and others if you ask me)
If I take the lion hunts conducted between myself and my business partner, Pieter, Jaco and others that posted here, just off the top of my head, I believe we will be around 500 successfully conducted lion hunts. Experience allows us to have a WEIGHTED input on commenting on this matter.
Difference is, we speak on facts gained through experience, you speak on opinion and try and sway everyone else to be in line with yours.

NEXT!

 

[shakari]

This, Pieter was exactly my point when I asked how many Captive bred lion hunts Shakari has engaged in.

Shakari, its not about attacking a man you are arguing against. Its about you personally offering "advice" to fellow hunters on a subject you have ZERO experience on, then having the audacity to tell the Hunting Contractors here on this site, that we are just as bad as the ones you see on Youtube. Is that not an attack in itself? ( ...and quite a slap in my face, and others if you ask me)
If I take the lion hunts conducted between myself and my business partner, Pieter, Jaco and others that posted here, just off the top of my head, I believe we will be around 500 successfully conducted lion hunts. Experience allows us to have a WEIGHTED input on commenting on this matter.
Difference is, we speak on facts gained through experience, you speak on opinion and try and sway everyone else to be in line with yours.

NEXT!

Marius

I haven't offered any advice at all........ what I have offered is opinion of the practice and that's something completely different.

Let's be honest, the skill of a cat hunt is getting the animal to be in the right place at the right time to shoot it and with a captive bred lion, that ain't difficult and you don't need experience to get said captive bred lion into that position which is why these shoots can be sold as a 3 or 4 day event and a proper wild lion hunt is usually sold as a 14-21 day event and plenty of further proof can be found on You Tube and similar which are full of evidence of that........ which is why it's not a proper hunt.

 

[BRICKBURN]

Jaco
That's not what my vet friends tell me......... but perhaps you know better?
............

I'd appreciate hearing the facts about the drugs. Which ones are they?

 

[BRICKBURN]

........

NorwegianWoods & Brickburn

IIRC, the originally proposed wilding period was 6 months or 180 days but it was then amended to just a few days which to me is a real piss take and the real reason for that is simple economics........ if a lion eats just one impala worth US$150 per day for 6 months, it's going to cost the landowner something in the region of US$27000 just to feed that single lion.

Missed this earlier reply. Too much fun working yesterday.

I could imagine if the Lions were to eat game that could be sold on the market that it might be costly.
However, do they have to be eating Impala to have a wilding process taking place or could they still be allowed to feed on "carrion" inside a large property?
Is "wilding" actually about being self sustaining without food supplementation?

 

[shakari]

Brickburn

I guess the others could probably tell you more but in my day, they were most commonly using a cocktail of immobilon and something else I've forgotten the name of I'm afraid........ I guess I'm getting old! LOL

FWIW, cats are ultra sensitive to many/most drugs and one has to be VERY careful about what to use and how much etc. - In the early days of it's use, a vet in the UK had to dart two lions that had been involved in some kind of RTA and he managed to accidentally kill both of 'em! - Has it's funny side I suppose!

 

[shakari]

Missed this earlier reply. Too much fun working yesterday.

I could imagine if the Lions were to eat game that could be sold on the market that it might be costly.
However, do they have to be eating Impala to have a wilding process taking place or could they still be allowed to feed on "carrion" inside a large property?
Is "wilding" actually about being self sustaining without food supplementation?

That's a good point but the idea is they learn to survive like a wild lion and beinbg totally self sufficient....... of course, they would in that environment sometimes eat carrion but they would also sometimes eat more expensive species such as kudu, nyala, sable and buffalo etc........ I simply used 1 impala per lion per day as an example but one could if preferred work the sums out by factoring in both carrion and more expensive species as well....... my guess however is that the final figure would probably work out higher rather than lower.

Going back to the question of my experience of shooting captive bred lions (or other species) we've had plenty of enquiries for such hunts over the years, not least amongst them a group of 12 Russians who each wanted to shoot a lion in as short a time as possible but we always chose to decline such business for ethical reasons.

 

[peras]

Truth is in quite a few cases no drugs are used, lions are lured into trap cages and released from this. The drug previously used is only lawfully obtainable by vets. I am not sure what is used now.

 

[shakari]

Truth is in quite a few cases no drugs are used, lions are lured into trap cages and released from this. The drug previously used is only lawfully obtainable by vets. I am not sure what is used now.

If no drugs are used then no problem with having a blood test done then?

But that still doesn't alter the fact that such a short wilding period doesn't allow the animal to become self sufficient or learn thing like the terrain, escape routes, safe areas or watering points etc.

The animal might as well be on the moon for all it knows of the area.

 

[BRICKBURN]

That's a good point but the idea is they learn to survive like a wild lion and beinbg totally self sufficient....... of course, they would in that environment sometimes eat carrion but they would also sometimes eat more expensive species such as kudu, nyala, sable and buffalo etc........ I simply used 1 impala per lion per day as an example but one could if preferred work the sums out by factoring in both carrion and more expensive species as well....... my guess however is that the final figure would probably work out higher rather than lower.

Going back to the question of my experience of shooting captive bred lions (or other species) we've had plenty of enquiries for such hunts over the years, not least amongst them a group of 12 Russians who each wanted to shoot a lion in as short a time as possible but we always chose to decline such business for ethical reasons.

I can understand the choice of turning business down for your own ethical reasons. Fair enough.

There are hunters that feel anything inside any type of fence is unethical to hunt. They do not care about the property size or self sufficiency. Fair enough, they hold a particular view that will not be shifted either.

Then the "wilding" concept is about self sufficiency.

I was really just brain storming and wondering about an idea of a large property, where the lions were still basically fed (same as current meal plan, carrion) and could also hunt if they chose to do so. (not just about the math)
They just did not see of interact with people on a regular basis. Remove habituation to humans.

Of course the feeding on a large property could end up being about the same as the tin opener for a domestic cat.
Similarly to where "wild" animal hears the shot and comes running to feed on the inevitable gut pile.

We have that here with Bears.

 

[BRICKBURN]

Brickburn

I guess the others could probably tell you more but in my day, they were most commonly using a cocktail of immobilon and something else I've forgotten the name of I'm afraid........ I guess I'm getting old! LOL

FWIW, cats are ultra sensitive to many/most drugs and one has to be VERY careful about what to use and how much etc. - In the early days of it's use, a vet in the UK had to dart two lions that had been involved in some kind of RTA and he managed to accidentally kill both of 'em! - Has it's funny side I suppose!

I guess that is the reason a Vet requires a license and you are required to purchase insurance if you are doing a Rhino dart hunt!

 

[peras]

If no drugs are used then no problem with having a blood test done then?

But that still doesn't alter the fact that such a short wilding period doesn't allow the animal to become self sufficient or learn thing like the terrain, escape routes, safe areas or watering points etc.

The animal might as well be on the moon for all it knows of the area.

Maybe this could be an option to a client in co op with the farmer to have a drug free release.
As for the wilding period, all on here are pro a longer time, however that issue will have to be dealt with by farm owners and the relevant authorities.

 

[shakari]

I might disapprove of the practice less if there was a sensible & enforceable wilding period such as 6 months but can also understand why that isn't possible and I fail to see any logic at all in the arguments these shoots contribute to conservation in any way simply because one thing has nothing whatsoever to do with the other so to me, the whole thing is a blot on our sport which is why I'd like to see ALL lion breeding banned throughout Africa.

As I said before, the only things it achieves (IMO) is it gives unwarranted bragging rights to those who shoot them and makes a very handy profit for those who sell them.

 

[peras]

I might disapprove of the practice less if there was a sensible & enforceable wilding period such as 6 months but can also understand why that isn't possible and I fail to see any logic at all in the arguments these shoots contribute to conservation in any way simply because one thing has nothing whatsoever to do with the other so to me, the whole thing is a blot on our sport which is why I'd like to see ALL lion breeding banned throughout Africa.

As I said before, the only things it achieves (IMO) is it gives unwarranted bragging rights to those who shoot them and makes a very handy profit for those who sell them.

Steve, slightly off topic, are you pro opening the trade in rhino horn?

 

[BRICKBURN]

Steve, slightly off topic, are you pro opening the trade in rhino horn?

Another thread!

 

[shakari]

Steve, slightly off topic, are you pro opening the trade in rhino horn?

I don't have the answer to that I'm afraid but do think it might (probably is) be part of the solution...... but I reckon they need to do considerably more than just open trade on rhino horn and/or ivory for that matter.

Even if they do open trade, I don't think it'll stop the poaching completely and (IMO) I think the Govts of the world also need to commit to catching the guys at the top of the trade, including those who hold positions of authority in their Govts and/or hold diplomatic immunity and we all know that'll never happen in a million years.

Applying rule .303 and shooting the poachers on the ground is a great idea but it will never work on it's own simply because there are more poor Africans willing to give it a go in the hope of the massive profits for them than there are bullets available!

I'd be interested to hear your and other opinions on that though. - Although it's probably a good idea to create a separate thread on that.

 

[BRICKBURN]

Maybe this could be an option to a client in co op with the farmer to have a drug free release.
As for the wilding period, all on here are pro a longer time, however that issue will have to be dealt with by farm owners and the relevant authorities.

Can't the change be effected from the demand side? Obviously harder than legislating it.

 

[matt85]

this has been a very interesting thread! reading everyone's opinions and beliefs on this topic has left me with a great deal of thinking to do.

recently I was looking to hunt a lioness and ended up passing on the idea in favor of a buffalo hunt. this change of heart wasn't so much due to fences but more based on the animals home range. the idea of relocating an animal shortly before its hunted just didn't sit right with me. if the animal lived in a large enclosure its entire life (or at least a good length of time), then the enclosure becomes its territory much like a wild lion would have. if I found a game farm that had lions roaming the property that were born there or perhaps moved there a very long time ago (over a year) then I would happily hunt one of these lions.

having said that, I live in a place where wild game is abundant and high fences are extremely rare. my view is biased and based on where I have grown up and I fully realize this. I will not degrade or look down on someone who hunts a captive bred lion. also, I find it in very poor taste to insult the PH's and owners who run honest captive bred lion hunting outfits by calling the hunts canned. I see captive bred lion hunting as beneficial to both lions and people who cant afford a wild lion hunt who are willing to take the next best thing. to get rid of captive breeding is to doom the lion to extinction.

-matt

 

[peras]

I don't have the answer to that I'm afraid but do think it might (probably is) be part of the solution...... but I reckon they need to do considerably more than just open trade on rhino horn and/or ivory for that matter.

Even if they do open trade, I don't think it'll stop the poaching completely and (IMO) I think the Govts of the world also need to commit to catching the guys at the top of the trade, including those who hold positions of authority in their Govts and/or hold diplomatic immunity and we all know that'll never happen in a million years.

Applying rule .303 and shooting the poachers on the ground is a great idea but it will never work on it's own simply because there are more poor Africans willing to give it a go in the hope of the massive profits for them than there are bullets available!

I'd be interested to hear your and other opinions on that though. - Although it's probably a good idea to create a separate thread on that.

Agree on this, and agree it should be another thread. However just like Africans the east will never change their belief in traditional medicine. This is where the legal trade in captive bred lionbone are starting to replace the demand for illegally poached wild tigers. One way in which captive bred lions contribute to conservation.