Krieghoff Big Five vs. Heym 88 or 89 vs. Blaser S2

[One Day...]

African Rifles & Cartridges - 1948 - John "Pondoro" Taylor

The last sentence is obsolete, as the 500/416 clearly qualifies, although admittedly he does not shoot quite as flat as the .375 H&H does ... but it hits a lot harder...

 

[Tanks]

...

The last sentence is obsolete, as the 500/416 clearly qualifies, although admittedly he does not shoot quite as flat as the .375 H&H does ... but it hits a lot harder...

Well, I can't disagree. I took my .416 B&M (has about the same ballistics) to Africa and also to an Elk hunt here in the States. Worked great from 60 yards to 300+ though I used it as a PG rifle as I was using my .500 with 500 grainers on DG.

Now, with modern bullets a lot of big bores from .375 (though marginally a big bore) through .500 can be considered an all around cartridge.

Call me a traditionalist, for a double rifle I am looking at 5K ft/lbs minimum from the muzzle at a minimum of 100 yards or so accuracy (I know some can shoot further). To me that is 450 NE and up. I am not looking for an all around rifle. For an all around rifle I would go for a bolt gun as outlined above.

I believe in specific equipment for specific purposes and do not try to make one piece of equipment do everything. I am a competitive USPSA shooter. My competition guns are .40S&W 2011s with 5.4" sight tracker barrels and 1.25 lbs trigger. I do not try to make them my CCW gun though my CCW gun has the same manual of arms. Horses for the courses.

Again, it seems like it works for you. I don't know whether that would be a deciding factor for someone looking for a double rifle though, as the OP stated when he put the survey up.

 

[Red Leg]

What Red Leg is discussing is a little different, but well known by the old hands...

In effect a double rifle is two rifles attached together, right? Two barrels, two firing groups, etc.

Therefore, one can use a double rifle as a double rifle ... as a single shot rifle.

The process is simple: with a scoped double rifle, one sights one barrel (ONE barrel only - generally the right (first) barrel) like one would sight a bolt rifle. What Red Leg says is that each barrel on his S2 is sub MOA, which means that if he fires 3 shots in a row from his right barrel, he gets a 1" group at 100 yd. The 500/416 being indeed in essence a rimmed .416 Rigby, i.e. it has a near 200 yard MPBR, this means that his S2 is shooting day in, day out, 2" groups at 200 yards with that one barrel. This is how one uses a double rifle as a longer range single shot rifle.

So, Red Leg's S2 continues to be a typical double rifle, grouping its TWO barrels 2.5" out to 100 yards, but his right barrel INDIVIDUALLY shoots 1" groups at 100 yards, therefore the rifle in appropriate longer range caliber - which the 500/416 is - is perfectly capable of taking a Kudu at 200 yards when it is scoped.

By the way this is not unique to S2 rifles. Any scoped double rifle can be used that way, and just like bolt rifles, some double rifles have more or less accurate barrels. In general, because they are very rigid (being soldered to another barrel), each individual barrel tend to be pretty accurate (if the crown has not be messed with to try to make the barrels shoot together).

It is actually how scoped British .375 double barrel rifles have been used by folks in the know traveling the world (India/Africa/America) with only one rifle, since the availability of scopes reliable and compact enough to be mounted on doubles. The point being that a .375 double, or now a 500/416 double, gives you truly "three" rifles in one: a hard hitting DG double rifle, and a flat shooting single shot PG rifle.

Does this help?

Pretty darn close. Only additional data point would be that second shot, if needed, will be in the kill zone of anything but maybe a stunted dik dik beyond 200 yards. Drives the traditional double user insane.

 

[Red Leg]

If you read his reply to me he sights in ONE barrel with the scope. Depending on the distance the second shot would be some inches off from the first shot if needed. However, most kill zones are several inches wide so it would not be an issue in my opinion. Definitely non-traditional but if it works, it works. In my case, I'd have a double and have one of the trackers carry a bolt gun if going after both DG and PG. Personally, I don't see any point in using bolt gun cartridges in a double rifle and then putting a scope on it, might as well just have a bolt gun. Then again, can't argue with success, and each to his own.

Personally, I don’t see any reason dragging two rifles on a stalk - even if the hired help is carrying one. I can follow a buffalo half a day, and drop a kudu on the next ridge on the way back to the truck. It is an awfully practical solution for Africa. That said, my last two buffalo and lot of PG were taken with my R8. In .375, it simply does everything just about perfectly.

 

[Red Leg]

Well, I can't disagree. I took my .416 B&M (has about the same ballistics) to Africa and also to an Elk hunt here in the States. Worked great from 60 yards to 300+ though I used it as a PG rifle as I was using my .500 with 500 grainers on DG.

Now, with modern bullets a lot of big bores from .375 (though marginally a big bore) through .500 can be considered an all around cartridge.

Call me a traditionalist, for a double rifle I am looking at 5K ft/lbs minimum from the muzzle at a minimum of 100 yards or so accuracy (I know some can shoot further). To me that is 450 NE and up. I am not looking for an all around rifle. For an all around rifle I would go for a bolt gun as outlined above.

I believe in specific equipment for specific purposes and do not try to make one piece of equipment do everything. I am a competitive USPSA shooter. My competition guns are .40S&W 2011s with 5.4" sight tracker barrels and 1.25 lbs trigger. I do not try to make them my CCW gun though my CCW gun has the same manual of arms. Horses for the courses.

Again, it seems like it works for you. I don't know whether that would be a deciding factor for someone looking for a double rifle though, as the OP stated when he put the survey up.

Let’s see. It was the deciding factor for me when I bought mine. Does that count?

 

[Tanks]

Let’s see. It was the deciding factor for me when I bought mine. Does that count?

Of course, and I am sure yours was one of the 3 votes for the S2. Someone mentioned that it was discontinued, do you know why Blaser discontinued such a great rifle?

 

[Red Leg]

Of course, and I am sure yours was one of the 3 votes for the S2. Someone mentioned that it was discontinued, do you know why Blaser discontinued such a great rifle?

Of course. I am also one of the few here who has actually used one - on targets and game.

The outdoor press, largely led by Wieland, hated it. It was too non-traditional. Oh the auto de-cock was always sited. But a simple change to the manual of arms makes it a non issue. But it’s real sin was it wasn’t in the English tradition. Most clients who use a double are on an exercise in nostalgia. Blaser boldly took a blank sheet of paper and engineered an extraordinarily effective late 20th century hunting firearm. They were not rewarded for such audacity.

Of course, there is nothing wrong with nostalgia. As I noted, I have other traditional doubles. But truth in lending, they make a pretty marginal selection for a client for anything but elephant.

But I primarily recommended it to the OP because of both it’s attributes, and because such great deals can be found on these remarkable rifles due to all of the above.

 

[Tanks]

Sure. The outdoor press, largely led by Wieland, hated it. It was too non-traditional. Most clients who use a double are on an exercise in nostalgia. Blaser boldly took a blank sheet of paper and engineered an extraordinarily effective late 20th century hunting firearm. They were not rewarded for such audacity.

Of course, there is nothing wrong with nostalgia. As I noted, I have other traditional doubles. But truth in lending, they make a pretty marginal selection for a client for anything but elephant.

Well, I have heard a lot of negative things about Blaser overall from people that don't own them for sure. I guess it has its impact.

In regards to double rifles (without scope), I think they are fine for buffalo, elephant, hippo on land, and rhino of course. They are fine for RSA lions as they are spot 'n stalk. For bait lions and leopards I think it depends on time of day I'd think you'd need a scope to make the shot at dusk. I am not sure if just a red dot would be good enough (guess I'll test it here), though you wouldn't lose the sight as you would the irons as it got darker. For plains game a bit of an overkill though doable under 100 yards.

For my upcoming buffalo/leopard hunt in August (assuming 'rona permits). I would use it for buffalo and have a bolt gun with a scope as well in the blind for leopard. Close to dusk the .458 would be the go to gun.

 

[Guépard]

Of course, and I am sure yours was one of the 3 votes for the S2. Someone mentioned that it was discontinued, do you know why Blaser discontinued such a great rifle?

It's sure that this can be decisive in the choice of hunters are looking for their first double African rifle?

If you know the real reason why Blaser stop this production, could you share it with us please?

 

[Tanks]

It's sure that this can be decisive in the choice of hunters are looking for their first double African rifle?

If you know the real reason why Blaser stop this production, could you share it with us please?

I think "Red Leg" explained it. The demand wasn't there as it was too much out of the box. If someone wants one there seems to be plenty of "lightly" used ones for sale. I just saw one 500/416 S2 on guns international for $7,950 which is almost half of what a used one from other brands sell for.

 

[Scott CWO]

Hello yhc;

I own a Krieghoff Big Five in .470 NE and am very happy with it. It shoots very well (1.5" to 2" at 25, 50, 75 yards with left barrel in the left hole and right barrel in the right hole, i.e. it neither crosses nor diverges) both its regulation load (Federal Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer) and Hornday DGS / DGX Bonded.

Setting aside the personal notions of likes and dislikes, and summarizing objective characteristics:

Heym

• Heym 88 and 89 are the "same" rifle, except the 88 has a definite German flair while the 89 was designed to be a British classic rifle lookalike. Either Heym are solid, proven, accurate rifles. The choice between the two is purely style.
• On the technical side, all Heym double rifles are equipped with intercepting sears. This prevents the possibility of the rifle "doubling" on you (shooting both barrels together) but, ugly truth be told, most doubling incidents with American shooters are caused by the shooter wrestling with two triggers, not the rifle. I know that this statement will likely be controversial, but it has been shown time and again that rifles doubling with certain people do not double with others. 'nough said...

Blaser

• Blaser S2 are characterized by an entirely different locking mechanism which is very ingenious and totally reliable, and by a different technique of joining the barrels at the muzzle. A Blaser S2 goes the opposite way from a Heym 89. While the 89 emulates a classic British rifle, the S2 clearly does not. Some love it. Some hate it. Blaser are solid, proven, accurate rifles.
• The S2 does not have a traditional safety but a cocker/decocker mechanism. This allows the rifle to be carried fully loaded but fully safe since the striker springs are not under tension. Some love it. Some hate it. More about this later.
• HOWEVER, what I personally believe killed the S2 is that its decocking mechanism automatically decocks both barrels whenever the rifle is opened, which means that in a quick reload the rifle needs to be manually recocked before it can be fired. Many, if not most, if not all - aside from dedicated S2 owners - see this as a fatal engineering flaw.

Krieghoff

• The Krieghoff Big Five is a cross-over, in a way, between the Heym and the S2. Its mechanism and barrels are typical traditional double rifle engineering, but it offers a cocker/decocker mechanism. As noted, this allows the rifle to be carried fully loaded but fully safe since the striker springs are not under tension. As mentioned, some love it, some hate it. Krieghoff are solid, proven, accurate rifles.
  
• The big difference between the S2 and the "K gun" - as it is affectionately nicknamed - is that the K gun decocker does NOT decock automatically when the rifle is opened. This makes a quick reload identical to all other double rifles quick reloads: break open, flick the empties out, dump two rounds in the breech, close the rifle, shoot. Many, if not most, if not all - aside from dedicated S2 owners - see this as a massive advantage over the S2. The classic discussion goes: "how many time in your life does this matter?" on one end, and "the only one time in your life it may matter may save your life" on the other end. I will let both sides happily argue the point...

Regarding safety vs. cocker/decocker in general, the argument goes as follows. On one end: "a classic safety is faster and smoother." This is undeniably true; it does take some physical effort to compress both barrels striker springs when cocking the rifle. On the other end, the argument goes: "as proven time and again by accidents in the bush, the "African carry" makes it dangerous to carry a fully loaded traditional double rifle, safety or no safety." This too is also undeniably true... This did not matter in the good old days when the rifle was carried by the gun bearer walking first and ahead of the hunter, so the hunter could just reach forward and grab the rifle from the bearer's shoulder, instantly ready to engage, but it does matter in modern days when three or four persons (1 tracker, 1 PH, 1 client, 1 apprentice or assistant PH) walk in single file each with a rifle on their shoulder aimed at the person ahead of them.

I personally do not suffer from arthritis in my right thumb, and I spent the time to acquire a new muscle memory when I transitioned from my previous pre-WW II Belgian Jules Burry .450 #2 with classic safety to my K gun .470 with cocker/decocker. Cocking the rifle when I shoulder it is now as automatic and as easy to me as flicking the safety on my sidelock double 20 gauge Merkel when after quails. I personally see the cocker/decocker as the safest option by far. I am personally not comfortable walking in front of someone who carries a fully loaded and cocked double rifle (or bolt rifle) on the shoulder, barrel(s) forward pointing at my back or head, and I know several PH who simply refuse to do it and ask the client to not load the rifle until the final approach. A S2 or K gun mitigates this issue. To each their own...



The two French double rifles you really want to also consider are:

Verney Carron

• The VC is produced using the Demas design (VC purchased Demas) characterized by an action that features 3 parallel lumps & bites rather than one massive one. Whether this is actually stronger or provide any meaningful design advantage can probably be argued forever. Suffice it to say that VC are solid, proven, accurate rifles.

Chapuis

• The "Dean" of Double Rifles dealers in the US, George Caswell of Champlin Firearms says of the Chapuis: "We feel so strong about these guns mechanically that we will take care of any problems for as long as you own it, except the wood. We have had every current made boxlock double rifle in our shop, have shot them all, worked on all, had all of them apart and we know for fact that you can't buy a better one for the money than a Chapuis. We regulate, re-joint, do triggers, re-barrel and hunt with and shoot a lot of double rifles. We flat know this is one tough, attractive, high precision, go to Africa and have money left for the second Buffalo type of gun. I challenge you to show me a better current double rifle for the money." This is no faint praise, and what else could I add...

I hope this was useful

Wow, thanks for all the info. I am being educated as I know very little about DRs. Can you please expand on the safety and cocking mechanisms on the VC and Chapuis rifles, as you did for the others?

 

[Guépard]

I think "Red Leg" explained it. The demand wasn't there as it was too much out of the box...

Stopping production because commercial success is not there does not mean that the product is bad.

Personally, I don’t see any reason dragging two rifles on a stalk - even if the hired help is carrying one. I can follow a buffalo half a day, and drop a kudu on the next ridge on the way back to the truck. It is an awfully practical solution for Africa. That said, my last two buffalo and lot of PG were taken with my R8. In .375, it simply does everything just about perfectly.

I agree with to don't take two rifles during the same hunt.
If you prefer take your R8 perhaps it's better I just keep using my R93 because I know very well its mechanism and the trigger !

But like I wrote, why a double ? because it's unreasonable !!

I spoke yesterday with an African PH own a S2 and he is very happy of it : balance, security...

 

[Red Leg]

Well, I have heard a lot of negative things about Blaser overall from people that don't own them for sure. I guess it has its impact.

In regards to double rifles (without scope), I think they are fine for buffalo, elephant, hippo on land, and rhino of course. They are fine for RSA lions as they are spot 'n stalk. For bait lions and leopards I think it depends on time of day I'd think you'd need a scope to make the shot at dusk. I am not sure if just a red dot would be good enough (guess I'll test it here), though you wouldn't lose the sight as you would the irons as it got darker. For plains game a bit of an overkill though doable under 100 yards.

For my upcoming buffalo/leopard hunt in August (assuming 'rona permits). I would use it for buffalo and have a bolt gun with a scope as well in the blind for leopard. Close to dusk the .458 would be the go to gun.

I have a dear friend in Mozambique who is my age and therefore been at this game a while - former Rhodesian light infantry. He says the only thing that really frightens him is a client showing up for his first buffalo with a double and open sights. Too many really aren’t competent in their use, and on today’s short safaris of 7 or 10 days, opportunities can be fleeting. Shots that could have been easily made with a scoped .375 (or S2) become, instead, all day adventures of blind man’s bluff with a wounded animal. That sort of thing seems to happen much less with elephant where the range is usually so much closer and where the PH is prepared and planning for an immediate follow-up shot.

When asked, I strongly urge anyone going out after their first buffalo, to use a scoped rifle with which they are comfortable and save the whole Stewart Granger thing for number two or three. That one opportunity at a great bull may be seventy yards, or through a tiny window in the jes, or at a dark form in the midst of three of his pals in poor light, or all three. A shot easily made with a 300 gr bullet from a scoped .375 becomes a disaster in the making with a double rifle.

And yes, exactly, the rifle failed commercially. The chattering class forgave the K-Gun it’s cocking slide, because otherwise, it is pretty much a traditional continental double - and a very fine gun. The Blaser’s tilting block action (which, by the way, never shoots loose or goes “off face”), ergonomic rather than traditional stock, high visibility open sights, and most damning, a “different,” and thus “bad,” manual of arms were just too different for such a tiny potential client base.

Moreover, the R8 and their OU clay target guns had really taken off, so it made far better sense to devote production space and supply chain to meeting that growing demand.

What it has left is a large number of unique, well made rifles on the used market at bargain prices. And like most used doubles built after say 1980 or so, they have typically been fired very rarely (see first paragraph above) and accompanied their owner on one or two safaris - if that.

 

[Red Leg]

Stopping production because commercial success is not there does not mean that the product is bad.



I agree with to don't take two rifles during the same hunt.
If you prefer take your R8 perhaps it's better I just keep using my R93 because I know very well its mechanism and the trigger !

But like I wrote, why a double ? because it's unreasonable !!

I spoke yesterday with an African PH own a S2 and he is very happy of it : balance, security...

I hate traveling with a pound more weight than necessary. It is not a cost thing. I just hate bag-dragging an ounce more than necessary. My R8 in .375 will handle everything in Africa I am going to hunt with either a Hydro, TSX, or A-Frame. It has now taken two buff and PG ranging from Suni to the huge blue eland bulls of Mozambique. It is a joy to carry all day on a track in the field, and it all fits into a travel case half the size of most. Somehow, when it gets to paperwork time, I now always turn to it.

 

[Tanks]

... He says the only thing that really frightens him is a client showing up for his first buffalo with a double and open sights. Too many really aren’t competent in their use, and on today’s short safaris of 7 or 10 days, opportunities can be fleeting. Shots that could have been easily made with a scoped .375 (or S2) become, instead, all day adventures of blind man’s bluff with a wounded animal...

I think it goes without saying that one needs to be competent at expected shooting ranges with their firearm regardless of the platform, that is part of the year plus long prep. Also, other than RSA who goes for a DG hunt just for 7-10 days?

Regarding taking more than one rifle to a Safari. I have never taken just one, always two as I believe in Murphy. Two is one, and one is none. Not to mention I use a TuffPak, one or two is not going to matter with wheels and it is under the weight limit with two rifles plus soft cases and clothes etc.. The biggest dilemma is how to divvy up the 11 lbs of rounds between the two rifles. For my 28 day Tanzania hunt that now I will do in 2022 instead of 2021 I will be taking a girlfriend who will also be an ammo mule for another 11 lbs.

 

[Tanks]

...That one opportunity at a great bull may be seventy yards, or through a tiny window in the jes, or at a dark form in the midst of three of his pals in poor light, or all three. A shot easily made with a 300 gr bullet from a scoped .375 becomes a disaster in the making with a double rifle...

Too late to edit my other post:

My viewpoint on this differs a bit for buffalo. I am paying the PH to get me close enough for a good shot, not sniping through a two inch hole through the brush at distance. If I wanted to do that I'd go hunt in RSA. I actually discussed it with Buzz Charlton before I booked my hunt.

I will do my part as far as the shooting goes. I expect the PH to do his.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

After shouldering many doubles i bought a Verney Carron in 375 Flanged Magnum. This is a small frame PH model and fits perfectly. And the unusual part - it is an O/U. I cant praise this little double enough, it points perfectly and snap shot bulls just appear. Lets face it a sxs is pretty, but so is the O/U. Why the Verney over the others you mention, and a few besides - it is superbly made and finished and even on this base model there is thoughtful and well executed edge engraving. I like them all, but Verney just looks and feels best.

 

[Red Leg]

I think it goes without saying that one needs to be competent at expected shooting ranges with their firearm regardless of the platform, that is part of the year plus long prep. Also, other than RSA who goes for a DG hunt just for 7-10 days?

Regarding taking more than one rifle to a Safari. I have never taken just one, always two as I believe in Murphy. Two is one, and one is none. Not to mention I use a TuffPak, one or two is not going to matter with wheels and it is under the weight limit with two rifles plus soft cases and clothes etc.. The biggest dilemma is how to divvy up the 11 lbs of rounds between the two rifles. For my 28 day Tanzania hunt that now I will do in 2022 instead of 2021 I will be taking a girlfriend who will also be an ammo mule for another 11 lbs.

That is fine. That is just not the way I opt to travel, though most here would agree with you. However, I also don’t travel with two rifles to any other destination in Europe or North America. I also typically travel with 40 rounds. In Africa that would be 30 SPs and 10 solids (primarily for little guys). Were I going to spend a month in Tanzania, I would make an exception and bring a specialized PG rifle with a bit of reach.

With respect to buffalo hunt length, I suspect 80% of the hunts in Zim, the Caprivi, Mozambique, and Zambia are ten days or less. So with respect to your question, nearly everyone?

My hunt for a buffalo in the Limpopo was somewhat different than what you characterize. There is report posted here somewhere.

I hope Buz gets you that close.

 

[DWB]

@ Tanks

With all due respect, if you hunt in the right areas in SA its up close and personal. All my personal buffaloes as well as ones I hunted with friends were sub 50m.

 

[Red Leg]

Too late to edit my other post:

My viewpoint on this differs a bit for buffalo. I am paying the PH to get me close enough for a good shot, not sniping through a two inch hole through the brush at distance. If I wanted to do that I'd go hunt in RSA. I actually discussed it with Buzz Charlton before I booked my hunt.

I will do my part as far as the shooting goes. I expect the PH to do his.

@ Tanks

With all due respect, if you hunt in the right areas in SA its up close and personal. All my personal buffaloes as well as ones I hunted with friends were sub 50m.

I had a great experience there. https://www.africahunting.com/threa...g-cape-buffalo-with-phillip-bronkhorst.44314/

The hunt appears in article form in AHG. https://www.africahunting.com/threads/up-close-personal-in-the-limpopo.47311/ 1st Quarter 2019