If this is lion hunting…. You can have it

[Rare Breed]

I have now hunted all my life. From recurves making my own arrows to compounds to cross bows. I have taken over 100 white tail deer with this combination. The big difference here to me is not will any form of archery kill DG…it is the clearly extra danger that can happen. I can completely understand @redkegs “come on man” comment. Can a rifle hunter bungle a shot on DG…yes. Does anyone really think any type of archery will drop any DG animal unless spine hit? Only my POV and I know will upset some on here…I just do not feel archery for DG makes sense. PG…have at it

Bow

 

[Rare Breed]

Bow

@redleg

 

[baxterb]

I agree with everything you posted here.. Especially in regard to the hypocrisy of many hunters throwing stones from their glass shooting houses.. I also agree that a lot of needless hand-wringing goes on about the perception of hunting in the eyes of the anti-hunters. Reasoning an fact is wasted on their behalf..

I see two separate controversies from the video:

One is in regard to the ethics of CBL hunting which I think you already addressed reasonably well..

The other is in regard to the ethics of dangerous game hunting with archery equipment which I will address personally below under Wishfulthinker's post..



Why would hunters stray form crossbows or any other archery equipment of that matter? The controversy over the lion hunt with Dr. Palmer (which was a wild lion over bait by the way) had nothing to do with the fact he was hunting with a crossbow other than the ignorant, libelous, media attempted to make it seem somehow more inhumane.. If your comment is an implication that archery equipment is less ethical than rifle hunting I vehemently disagree, and I am happy to have that debate with you..



Not sure what this is about? But, if it's another implication about archery equipment, please say what you mean and we can have that discussion..



Why? I assume you don't bowhunt or know many who do and have hunted dangerous game with archery equipment to any extent? I have, and I disagree... Archery equipment, just like a rifle, is only as good as the hunter who holds it. Hunting DG with a bow or crossbow is arguably more dangerous and risky, but certainly not less ethical.. It's ultimately the hunter's responsibility to know their equipment, use it proficiently, and also know their limitations regardless of the weapon used..

We can have the discussion that a perfectly placed first rifle shot is more immediately lethal that a perfectly placed arrow shaft or bolt, but less than perfect shot placement, regardless of the weapon, can provoke a charge just as easily.

my comment simply meant that even supposedly rational people cannot seem
To control their human nature to continue to do stupid things. That could be applied to going into a situation you are incapable of getting yourself (!) out of, or posting a video for the world to see that in no way helps the cause of hunting.

 

[Rubberhead]

Morally, what is the difference between raising a cow for slaughter and raising a lion to be shot?

There's no moral difference, granted. But...
1) No one films a cow being slaughtered and puts it on their youtube or facebook page, (or trophy room wall),
2) I would have a problem with a ranch that used archery equipment kill their cows before slaughter,
3) Ranching doesn't undermine the sport hunting premise that only a small part of hunting is about "killing".

Again, I'm not saying I'm opposed to the video. I understand the folks that might want to put themselves in a position to be charged by dangerous game...Without that possibility, they'd all just be "plains game". With that probably comes the actuality. Again, I get it. Standing taut during a lion charge even if a PH or two kills it with a gun, still has some level of intrigue for me - probably for most of us. If I did stand pat during a lion charge, I'd want a video of it so I could show people. I get it.

 

[WAB]

There's no moral difference, granted. But...
1) No one films a cow being slaughtered and puts it on their youtube or facebook page, (or trophy room wall),
2) I would have a problem with a ranch that used archery equipment kill their cows before slaughter,
3) Ranching doesn't undermine the sport hunting premise that only a small part of hunting is about "killing".

Again, I'm not saying I'm opposed to the video. I understand the folks that might want to put themselves in a position to be charged by dangerous game...Without that possibility, they'd all just be "plains game". With that probably comes the actuality. Again, I get it. Standing taut during a lion charge even if a PH or two kills it with a gun, still has some level of intrigue for me - probably for most of us. If I did stand pat during a lion charge, I'd want a video of it so I could show people. I get it.

If you read the rest of my post I think you will see that we are generally in agreement. I was trying to break out the application of morality, ethics and judgement in this situation. It seems that they have been conflated in much of the discussion.

 

[IvW]

Every Dangerous Game hunt I have started in South African has had at least two PH's on that hunt, that is how I picked up my time for my DG rating, I was told it was a requirement ?

Not all finished with two but two were meant to be there !

This is just straight forward bullshit...ask them to provide you with legislation where it states there has to be 2 Professional hunters present for DG?????
There may be two or more but it is not a requirement.....

 

[Rubberhead]

If you read the rest of my post I think you will see that we are generally in agreement.

Oh, I knew we were in tight agreement. I was using your point to expand on why I'm okay with the video. I have less problem with put-and-take lion hunting than put-and-take mallard hunting...

 

[Doug3006]

The ethics of CBL hunts aside, hunting a 400-500 pound animal that has razor sharp claws, tent pegs for teeth, and a nasty disposition, with a crossbow, puts the PH and his crew in mortal danger. Even if I could get over my qualms about hunting a CBL, and find a PH willing to accept the risk, I wouldn’t try such a stunt with a crossbow. They are exceedingly fortunate no one got injured or killed.

 

[wesheltonj]

Wow. I am normally a to each his own when it comes to hunting, but that is not for me. The only redeeming quality, is at the beginning with the girls.

I have rewatch the video a couple of times after my initial post above. (1) I do not archery hunt and don't have a problem for those that do. (2) I have zero interest in shooting a Lion either CBL, Managed or Wild it's just hunt that I am not interested in. That said . . .

Here's my problems that I have with this hunt. (1) It's on 6k acres, that's a lot of land but not for a lion. Personally, I would want a place that was the size of its natural range, but that's me, other may differ. (2) It was a very poor shot, rushed and should not have been taken. Anyone can make bad shots and I certainly have made some poor shots in my life, I certainly did on a Gemsbok. That shot was very low under and behind the shoulder, not a quick kill shot bow or rifle. (3) and my biggest complaint is the lion was laying down. I would never shoot an animal laying down (except a Hog) others might. (4) the lion was extremely distressed and the PH's should have backed off and most likely would have, if not for the video and advertisement. The shooter said he's been charged before. I think was was looking pulling a Mark Sullivan to get the charge for the video.

Personally, I wish hunting videos would go back to the day of the "American Sportsmen's" model make the shot and skip to the finished. I get their is a market for this type of hunt and it's legal hunt, some my want to take part in and other may not. I just found this whole video in poor taste (except the girls), and I know who I not ever be hunting with. . . . Flame away.

 

[Scott CWO]

I have only assisted on the one Lion hunt & it charged after being wounded (grazed) with a Cross Bow bolt, my guiding partner shot it in the head with his .416 Rigby (I later asked why the head thus wrecking the Skull he said F#@K him !) before the hunt when talking to the guys they said expect to be in a charge as nearly 100% percent charged after being bumped a couple of times .

I to want a Free Range Lion but will never be able to afford one the way things are going, they said it is way safer hunting Wild Lions then released Lions as tracking only & these are not Pets or half tame Lions, not born in the Wild but no way tame !

Not many Client hunters are charged by Wild Lion (I would say near none) PH yes Clients no !

As mostly in this day & age you sit in a blind waiting for a known male in the area to come to a bait hanging in a tree, then it is checked for age before being shot !

I have shot a few Bears, many Blacks with a Brown & Grizz, also helped on a wounded Grizz, I think the whole hunt is more dangerous for Brown Bear & Grizzly than a Free range lion hunt sitting in a blind, dangerous maybe getting into & back to the Bakkie ?

I must say hunting in a area with Lions is thrilling & Lions do put me on edge, same with Elephant !

Oh on the cross bow or bow hunting DG certainly thick skinned DG, I'm not 100% sure that is legal in hind sight but I was only a helper !

I will be hunting in Maswa North and it is my understanding that we will see a lot of lions so there is a high probability that I will shoot my lion without bait and a blind. We will try both methods. I do not wish to be charged but if it happens, I am certainly hoping that between Mike Fell and I, that we can get the lion killed safely. I will be shooting my .375 with 300 grain Swift A-Frame and he carries a .577 double rifle. I am also bringing a Lott for buffalo but I think the .375 would be better for lion.

 

[IvW]

True wild lion $13500.

Zimbabwe Free Range Lioness Hunt Special 2022

Hi all I have a great deal on a free range lioness to be hunted in November of this year 2022. The area has loads of lion so I predict this to be a successful hunt. We would be hunting the save valley conservancy. Area- Save valley conservancy Outfitter-Mbalabala Safaris Ph- Lin stanton...

www.africahunting.com

You can also hunt a wild trophy male lion for $15000 in Zambia....
Many cheaper options like BVC in Zim....over populated with lions....

 

[375Fox]

You can also hunt a wild trophy male lion for $15000 in Zambia....
Many cheaper options like BVC in Zim....over populated with lions....

I’d like to agree, but only trophy fees, with daily rates and baits, it would be be difficult to find a male lion hunt under $50k, most would be $60k-$100k all in. I can’t afford it, but I’m glad it’s not cheap, it provides a lot of conservation value to these areas. I’ve been offered a lion/lioness on short notice in Namibia for $25k all in after declared problem animals. That is one of my biggest hunting regrets not taking that offer. The hunter they found was successful. Had those lions been put on regular quota for that area they could have been sold for triple that value and the community would actually get something from living with them.

 

[VonJager]

Man, I met this guy at Africa Sky in Joberg right after this hunt a couple weeks ago and he showed us the video. He was quite pleased with himself. Oooof.

I met him in 2019. Was not impressed. Sales sales sales.

 

[Sarg]

This is just straight forward bullshit...ask them to provide you with legislation where it states there has to be 2 Professional hunters present for DG?????
There may be two or more but it is not a requirement.....

Haha that doesn't really really surprise me as I get a lot of misinformation from different people here but I'm not the Outfitter & mainly do what I'm asked, might have a suspicion but do the job, unless I know like TOPS animals or transport permits !

 

[Tundra Tiger]

My opinions, and that is all they are...

I have zero issue with DG with a bow (or crossbow).
It totally comes down to the hunter and his/her preparation.
All hunting comes with risk.
It does involve choices, on behalf of everyone involved.
It is a sadness this video is "out there."
This fool should never have been allowed a lion or anything else.

I don't understand the mindset that all types of DG hunting that make use of a something less than a large caliber rifle are "stunts." Frankly, if that's truly your mindset I'd argue any sort of hunting on any level is nothing more than a stunt. Do some folks turn such a pursuit into a stunt? Yes. That doesn't make the act itself one. Motives, preparation, and other elements come into play, just as they would with a rifle.

Two from my own life: when I shot my cow buff with a .45-70 two years ago, I had a couple of people tell me they thought it was something like a stunt. From my perspective, it was nothing of the sort. I spent a LOT of time talking to my PH, seeking out the advice of others, untold hours load testing, and then finally a lot of practice, before I ever had the chance to hunt. I listened to EVERYTHING my PH said. He had input during the process of me seeking the right load, and I would not have gone against anything he said on the hunt. If I'd have come home without a shot, that would have been fine. No one would have known. I wasn't trying to impress anyone. The other example has yet to happen: one of my remaining bucket list items is brown bear with a bow. I have spent a lot of years practicing, and doing my research. I have been on several hunts and it just didn't quite come together, and so I'll keep trying. I do not think of it as a stunt. I know it's something a lot of dedicated hunters have accomplished, and it's one I want to say I have. No videos, no YouTube... just me proving to myself I can.

 

[lawrence_court]

If an animal isn't naturalized, it's target shooting on live animals, not hunting.

The video is also just vulgar -- the shooting is done for the sake of the video (as he states right after the kill) not for any sort of sport or inherent value. Vulgar actions smear the name of hunting generally.

It's quite brave of the team to endanger themselves so recklessly, but bravery without honor is not much more than bravado.

 

[PARA45]

If an animal isn't naturalized, it's target shooting on live animals, not hunting.

The video is also just vulgar -- the shooting is done for the sake of the video (as he states right after the kill) not for any sort of sport or inherent value. Vulgar actions smear the name of hunting generally.

It's quite brave of the team to endanger themselves so recklessly, but bravery without honor is not much more than bravado.

We can say that most of the hunting videos on TV fall on this category.

 

[lawrence_court]

We can say that most of the hunting videos on TV fall on this category.

Yes. Agreed. On the sliding scale of vulgarity, this one is about as bad as it gets. Hence the general disgust and disapproval of it.

 

[Nyati]

That video is a disgrace

To the PH´s it´s just another day at work, these farms specialize in lion hunts and they get to shoot a lot of them

I have been on two CBL hunts with friends and we were charged by one which came out of the high grass not more than 20 meters away, my friend shot it with a ,375HH close to his left eye. Quite exciting !

I know personally two Outfitters who are PHASA members and conduct CBL lion hunts

It´s only business, and big business

 

[buck wild]

Yes. Agreed. On the sliding scale of vulgarity, this one is about as bad as it gets. Hence the general disgust and disapproval of it.

Oh then you haven't seen the Motswhere Safari videos from several years ago. Your standards might be further lower