If this is lion hunting…. You can have it

[Wishfulthinker580]

I'm not sure the implication is any different? Inappropriate in what specific regard?

Regardless, I respectfully disagree based on my 40+ years of bowhunting and taking multiple DG species in several continents...



What evidence are you using to base this assumption? The PH will likely have to step in about 50% of the time regardless of the weapon.. Unfortunately, statistics for frequency of this occurring in rifle vs. bowhunting do not exist... Anyone's opinion on this, including mine, is anecdotally based..

I'd wager that the frequency for the necessity of a follow-up rifle shot on a wounded DG animal is much more dependent on the hunter's experience and proficiency rather than the weapon used.. If anything, it's been my experience that bowhunters, by and large, are much more competent, confident, and practiced with their equipment comparatively to rifle hunters simply because proficiency with a vertical bow is much more difficult to attain than with a rifle.

Furthermore, a crossbow (no disrespect to crossbow hunters) is not the same as a vertical bow by any measure.. Any modern crossbow set up properly is just as accurate and consistent as a rifle out to 100 yards..

Sorry have been too busy to reply. I believe archery equipment of any kind is inappropriate for DG for a number of reasons.

You are practically necessitating the intervention of the PH. Personally I would not find it very fulfilling to have someone shoot my animal for me. If I can help it..

You essentially have a single shot to get the job done with virtually no hope of a follow up shot.

You are for all intents and purposes unarmed (and even more of a liability) after that single shot and of no use to anyone. I am not delusional thinking I’m going to stop charges but there are instances where clients have had to step up to the plate. You can’t do that with a pointy stick in your hand and someone could be seriously hurt because of that. Or worse. Granted that’s IF your PH wants you involved in the first place.

You don’t have the potentially life-saving option of a CNS shot.

And so on and so forth….

 

[Red Leg]

Looking at the positive side of things, the PH made a clutch shot. CBLs are still dangerous if they get a hold of you.

So is getting in the ring with a Spanish fighting bull.

We have a video of two controversial subjects - pen raised lions released to be shot, and attempting to humanely kill an apex predator with either inadequate equipment or expertise.

We have a fat old guy wandering around a fenced area with a released lion that he is going to bravely stick with a short arrow, and he is so confident with his ability that he apparently has paid for an additional PH to clean up any mess he makes. What's not to like about such a scenario? Should be great video for hunters and antis alike. I frankly find the whole thing rather pathetic.

Setting aside the efficacy of CBL hunts, what puzzles me about stunt hunts is the apparent total lack of concern about anyone else in the parade marching through the bush. I think even most experienced bow hunters (I haven't hunted African DG with a bow, but I took a lot of deer with one before giving up the practice twenty years ago) - regardless of tackle - would agree that the likelihood of a charge is greater with a bow than with a rifle. Were the "hunter" the only one at risk, then fine. But he isn't. Is he prepared to support the widow and family of the tracker if he is the one killed or maimed? Likely not.

And back to that efficacy issue, unless something has changed, both DSC and SCI have taken very negative positions with the regard to the practice of CBL hunting or calling it "fair Chase" with whatever tool is chosen for the task.

 

[375Fox]

There must be a ton of people on this site who never hunt whitetails from a stand with the trail camera sending up to date pics, and the bait pile close. No pig hunting with the same, don't hunt grizzly or predators with archery equipment in any place that requires a guide, no Mexico muley hunting from a high rack, have no color phase anything except bears, no night hunting, now no water hole sitting and on and on.

Hell who needs the antis, there are so many "hunters" who chastise, complain call out and belittle each other for doing LEGAL hunts and using legal methods, they just don't conform to their beliefs, thoughts and misguided opinions. So its wrong????

The CB Lion hunts are not lied about, not secret, not made out to be what they are not, at least now. Yes I did feel like the whole hunt was scripted but sort of feel the same in a tree stand waiting for the big 9, drop boy or what ever its name is and the camera tells me he shows at ..... time daily.

Lots of glass room living people.

The original video is a You tuber, that should explain most of what he states and does. Most is enhanced, fake and made into something they are not. Its about likes and dollars, seams it has somewhat worked, sure got us stirred up.

MB

You say the CBL shoots are not lied about now. What brought about that change? It’s discussions like these criticizing the practice. The major hunting organizations are officially against this. PHASA showed some leadership and banned it before it was reinstated causing a split and creating a new hunting organization there. Here is DSC statement against it. I don’t agree with the if it’s legal it’s acceptable defense. The comparisons you made have no relevance. A comparison doesn’t exist. No one in North America raises bears or mountain lions as farm animals released a week before being tracked down and shot. If they did, it would definitely not be called hunting by anyone.

DSC, CIC Oppose Captive Bred Lion Shooting - Dallas Safari Club

[box] Read DSC’s Previous Statement on Captive Bred Lion Hunting – January 2018 [/box]

www.biggame.org

 

[LivingTheDream]

Different point of view. The lion was obviously pissed off, could/should the PH have told the client back off on him for later or shoot him with a rifle. Knowing little of Lion behavior it did seemed like a charge was inevitable, especially once shot with a bolt. What responsible does the PH have in this situation (btw PH made a great shot and think he did well under the circumstances).

 

[Newboomer]

The shame of an old white man.
Boasting about shooting a half tame lion with a crossbow with two armed Phs on his side. Almighty and proclaiming it as a heroic deed in the social media.
Before that, it is discussed at length and loudly that it really is 43 metres away.
But you see, even discarded circus lions are still damn fast.
It's a pity he couldn't grab the crossbowman by his balls.
I would have begrudged him - the lion.

I don't get it. If the minimum caliber for dg is 375, how in hell can anyone justify a little stick. That is sheer stupidity.

 

[npm352]

So is getting in the ring with a Spanish fighting bull.

We have a video of two controversial subjects - pen raised lions released to be shot, and attempting to humanely kill an apex predator with either inadequate equipment or expertise.

We have a fat old guy wandering around a fenced area with a released lion that he is going to bravely stick with a short arrow, and he is so confident with his ability that he apparently has paid for an additional PH to clean up any mess he makes. What's not to like about such a scenario? Should be great video for hunters and antis alike. I frankly find the whole thing rather pathetic.

Setting aside the efficacy of CBL hunts, what puzzles me about stunt hunts is the apparent total lack of concern about anyone else in the parade marching through the bush. I think even most experienced bow hunters (I haven't hunted African DG with a bow, but I took a lot of deer with one before giving up the practice twenty years ago) - regardless of tackle - would agree that the likelihood of a charge is greater with a bow than with a rifle. Were the "hunter" the only one at risk, then fine. But he isn't. Is he prepared to support the widow and family of the tracker if he is the one killed or maimed? Likely not.

And back to that efficacy issue, unless something has changed, both DSC and SCI have taken very negative positions with the regard to the practice of CBL hunting or calling it "fair Chase" with whatever tool is chosen for the task.

Again, the positive I saw was a good shot made by a PH in a tense situation. He didn't want to die. He didn't want the client, or tracker or videographer to die. He made the shot. Good on him.

I doubt he was thinking about the merits of hunting CBLs versus wild lions in the moment, or whether he will lose his DSC membership over the subsequent YouTube video.

I didn't say what I thought was negative. The list is too long. I chose one positive.

Can we agree that it was good the PH stopped the charge, or do outfitters and hunters who pursue CBLs simply deserve to get mauled and killed for doing so?

He made a good shot, did he not?

The video shouldn't even exist, and since it does, it should have stayed on the guy's phone to show his buddies late at night while he is five Whiteclaws deep and wants to "brag."

I'm a bowhunter, but first and foremost, a hunter. My personal thoughts, and I've held these since high school, is that I don't think I'd ever bow hunt African DG because I don't like the idea of putting someone else at risk when I have zero means to contribute to the team in the event of the charge.

The killing power of a well-placed broadhead is indisputable. The unfortunate reality is that a bow or crossbow is as useless in a charge as a Nerf gun, and even a well-placed shot gives DG plenty of time to scratch, bite, maul, hook or stomp someone.

The debate on hunting CBLs is extremely nuanced, and I don't really care to get into it. The video is not good. The PH's shot was.

No need to jump down my throat.

 

[Red Leg]

Again, the positive I saw was a good shot made by a PH in a tense situation. He didn't want to die. He didn't want the client, or tracker or videographer to die. He made the shot. Good on him.

I doubt he was thinking about the merits of hunting CBLs versus wild lions in the moment, or whether he will lose his DSC membership over the subsequent YouTube video.

I didn't say what I thought was negative. The list is too long. I chose one positive.

Can we agree that it was good the PH stopped the charge, or do outfitters and hunters who pursue CBLs simply deserve to get mauled and killed for doing so?

He made a good shot, did he not?

The video shouldn't even exist, and since it does, it should have stayed on the guy's phone to show his buddies late at night while he is five Whiteclaws deep and wants to "brag."

I'm a bowhunter, but first and foremost, a hunter. My personal thoughts, and I've held these since high school, is that I don't think I'd ever bow hunt African DG because I don't like the idea of putting someone else at risk when I have zero means to contribute to the team in the event of the charge.

The killing power of a well-placed broadhead is indisputable. The unfortunate reality is that a bow or crossbow is as useless in a charge as a Nerf gun, and even a well-placed shot gives DG plenty of time to scratch, bite, maul, hook or stomp someone.

The debate on hunting CBLs is extremely nuanced, and I don't really care to get into it. The video is not good. The PH's shot was.

No need to jump down my throat.

Did not mean to do so. Intent was to use the comment as a basis for mine. I obviously should not have. I think we can all agree that the PH's salvaged the situation however it came about..

 

[npm352]

Did not mean to do so. Intent was to use the comment as a basis for mine. I obviously should not have. I think we can all agree that the PH's salvaged the situation however it came about..

For sure sir, appreciate that.

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

I wonder what comments Fred Bear would have made after watching this video.

 

[MarkB]

You say the CBL shoots are not lied about now. What brought about that change? It’s discussions like these criticizing the practice. The major hunting organizations are officially against this. PHASA showed some leadership and banned it before it was reinstated causing a split and creating a new hunting organization there. Here is DSC statement against it. I don’t agree with the if it’s legal it’s acceptable defense. The comparisons you made have no relevance. A comparison doesn’t exist. No one in North America raises bears or mountain lions as farm animals released a week before being tracked down and shot. If they did, it would definitely not be called hunting by anyone.

DSC, CIC Oppose Captive Bred Lion Shooting - Dallas Safari Club

[box] Read DSC’s Previous Statement on Captive Bred Lion Hunting – January 2018 [/box]

www.biggame.org

Not going to argue much. You state lions are let go one week prior. Where's your proof, data for that timeline? Or could that be your opinion because you do not like/participate in the hunt specifically for lion. SAPA has strict rules for CB Lion, I have not seen, heard or read anything validated (not calling your statement validated) that the credited farms/ranches are not following to the letter those rules. Its your your choice not to hunt CB Lion and that is totally fine, but your choice should not dictate to others their choice.

Do you really think that hunters criticizing hunters and CB Lion hunts changed PHASA and some major hunting organizations minds/policies? Wow, I say that is naïve. I say they had to change their public opinion and stance only after media outrage and negative publicity, they changed their public stance as a PR item saving face. Most of those same hunting organizations still allow same companies in shows.

Clearly you do not agree with the if its legal its OK stance. You demand that the hunt types you believe and agree with should be mandated to all other hunters. Again most of my comparisons were NOT directed at your statements in this thread, but WERE made by other posters. I am sorry that you think raising a lion, releasing to hunt in Africa is not OK, but growing a deer on crop land then hunting is OK, or growing a species for its antlers, selling and releasing for a sold hunt in a fenced NA ranch is OK? Maybe you feel the same as the antis, some species have more huggable merit than others, OK for deer, elk, antelope but not for predators??

I do not force/push or call other hunters who do not hunt like I names or think less of them. I stand by my if its legal in the place/area hunted then its OK.

Why? Because there are enough enemies who divide, reduce and close species, types and places already. I do not think hunters deserve or need the same within our own by those who may not think the same.

MB

 

[Inline6]

But he isn't. Is he prepared to support the widow and family of the tracker if he is the one killed or maimed? Likely not.

You are well respected, have a tremendous amount of experience, a wealth of knowledge hunting the world, and always willing to give guidance when people ask.

This statement I have questions about. 1. The PH and staff have agreed to take the hunt on, they know better than anyone the dangers. 2. How many PH have we read about that have been shot by the client during a stock? 3. I'm not sure that I have read about any PH beening attacked after an arrow has been released (I know it has happened, I just don't remember reading about it). 4. How many PHs have lost their or been altered for live due to a client making a bad shot, we have read many accounts of that happening. 5. Would you not expect the same standard for a rifle hunter that made a bad shot? If you are not proficient with your weapon of choice you should not get a free pass.

I believe your stance has been, 375 the goal of the client is to make the first shot count. No matter what side of the fence you are on with cartridge, 100% in agreement 1st shot should hit the mark. The problem is, I have yet to meet an honest that has not messed up a shot. Mistakes happen, that is why we must have a PH with us hunting DG.

I say all that to say this, if we hold one group of hunters to a different standard...where does it stop? Is handguns next? Then single shots?

I feel the same type of thing happens with the gun control arguments. People who don't understand what an AR is because they do not see the need are quick to dismiss it. Why does anyone need one they think. Just because they don't understand it's uses and abilities does not mean it should be taken away from the millions of other law abiding Americans that enjoy them every day.

As far a CBL...we all have are feelings on this. Again it's a hard one, I have seen deer, bear, mountain lion all hunted with dogs. It is not something that I can see myself doing. I will not speak out against it, together we stand divided fall.

 

[Ridge Runner]

Having watched the video and reading all the threads.

I see only courses of action. One back away and let him relax ( this lion doesn't look like he would allow that to happen. Second option use a firearm instead of the crossbow.

In this sinerio I would have opted for a firearm. This lion is chewing not playing with a limb which to me indicates he's hungry. Secondly the look on his face indicates he is going to charge no matter what this hunting party decides to do.

I'm an avid bow, muzzleloader, cartridge firearm hunter and because it's legal I carry a 44 mag while hunting regardless of hunting season. Because unexpected sh't happens.

The guy knew he was after dangerous game and chose to use a crossbow. And he knew if he didn't kill the lion he would have to rely on the PHs to finish the job. Thereby having a second PH along for backup was a good plan.

From what I could tell from the video his bolt hit low as during his sighting in you can hear the twenty and thirty yard are good. But the range to the lion is forty-three yards. Which makes me think he hit low and just wounded an already highly agitated cat.

As for being a CBL lion hunt, hunting over bait, from a stand, etc. those are different subjects.

When the lead PH stops the hunting party instructing everyone to stay close and in a line.... (spoiled alert) obviously he and the second PH are going to have to kill the lion and not the client.

I'm dumb founded at the end of the video as to why the PHs are congratulating the client when they are the ones that had to kill the lion.

I give this guy a .

 

[IvW]

I am amazed at how clueless some people are.....

 

[375Fox]

Not going to argue much. You state lions are let go one week prior. Where's your proof, data for that timeline? Or could that be your opinion because you do not like/participate in the hunt specifically for lion. SAPA has strict rules for CB Lion, I have not seen, heard or read anything validated (not calling your statement validated) that the credited farms/ranches are not following to the letter those rules. Its your your choice not to hunt CB Lion and that is totally fine, but your choice should not dictate to others their choice.

Do you really think that hunters criticizing hunters and CB Lion hunts changed PHASA and some major hunting organizations minds/policies? Wow, I say that is naïve. I say they had to change their public opinion and stance only after media outrage and negative publicity, they changed their public stance as a PR item saving face. Most of those same hunting organizations still allow same companies in shows.

Clearly you do not agree with the if its legal its OK stance. You demand that the hunt types you believe and agree with should be mandated to all other hunters. Again most of my comparisons were NOT directed at your statements in this thread, but WERE made by other posters. I am sorry that you think raising a lion, releasing to hunt in Africa is not OK, but growing a deer on crop land then hunting is OK, or growing a species for its antlers, selling and releasing for a sold hunt in a fenced NA ranch is OK? Maybe you feel the same as the antis, some species have more huggable merit than others, OK for deer, elk, antelope but not for predators??

I do not force/push or call other hunters who do not hunt like I names or think less of them. I stand by my if its legal in the place/area hunted then its OK.

Why? Because there are enough enemies who divide, reduce and close species, types and places already. I do not think hunters deserve or need the same within our own by those who may not think the same.

MB

7 days direct from SAPA norms and standards that you reference

 

[Sourdough]

I have some food for thought on this one, at least generally speaking.

First, should dangerous game be hunted with a bow, cross bow, knife or spear? How about looking at that subject like this and apply it to any weapon. Would you be willing to hunt DG with your weapon of choice if your backup was using the same weapon as you? Would your backup be willing?

Second, on the subject of CBL in general. At this years DSC convention I was talking with a Uganda Outfitter, and although I can't recall how or why it came up in conversation, he said he supported CBL. His reason I thought was fairly sound. Without it the lion will become extinct. As humans continue to populate the world in general and in Africa in particular, the lion will get in the way of that and have be eradicated. Think wolves and grizzly bears in the lower 48 of the US.

Just last month on my month long visit to South Africa I hunted the animal I didn't post about, one that required a Nature Conservator to be present. I actually had two with me- great people. After I had shot the animal one of the Conservators and I started talking. He shared that he had just come from a National Park. One where a tourist had gotten out of the vehicle to approach some lions lazing about. At some point a male took enough of an interest in him that the tourist decided to run for the car. The lion caught him of course and killed him. By the time the Conservator got there the lion had eaten a good portion of the chest/stomach area. To keep the remainder of the body as intact as possible until the police arrived the Conservator parked his Bakkie over the top of the corpse. Even so a lioness came in and pulled the body from under the Bakkie and drug it to the rest of the lions. He attempted to drive them off but a lioness tore off a leg and he watched it run off with the leg in its mouth and a tennis shoe still on the foot. I thought to myself, how many times can a lion attack a human as the population grows, in or out of a park, before the humans collectively say it's time to eradicate the lion. And if there are no CBL hunts, the only remaining place for lions at that point, they become extinct. I found the Conservator's story interesting, could see that he was still shaken by what he'd seen, and it gave me more food for thought.

 

[Spearhead]

We as hunters (different from collectors) had better have a reverence for these animals we hunt. There is a HUGE difference in hunting and killing.

 

[IvW]

Do some homework first....

Is it legal to hunt with crossbow in RSA?
Is it legal to hunt DG with a crossbow in RSA?
Who oversees or checks these 7 day before the shooting release?
What authority does SAPA have in this regard?
What authority does PHASA have in this regard?

And no the lion biting and breaking the dry stick is not because he is hungry.....he is pissed off....same as an elephant if you are close enough will show via body language....eg. pulling out a clump of grass and tossing it in your direction....he is not hungry he is telling you yiu are close enough.....

I should actually not comment on this thread as it will end up in a pissing contest.....again.....

 

[Sarg]

Every Dangerous Game hunt I have started in South African has had at least two PH's on that hunt, that is how I picked up my time for my DG rating, I was told it was a requirement ?

Not all finished with two but two were meant to be there !

 

[Scott CWO]

As a guide in North America for 31 years, including the past 17 years guiding archery, handgun and rifle hunters for brown bears in Alaska, I find the practice of provoking charges by dangerous game animals to be irresponsible. It is playing with fire. It is clear by the lion’s behavior in the OP video that it was aggravated and the chances of a charge were very high if the hunter took a shot with the crossbow, knowing that such a shot would not incapacitate the lion. These guys wanted to get a charge on tape. Why an archery hunter would set out to want a guide or a PH to shoot their animal is beyond me. Clearly the video of a charge was something these guys were hoping would happen. Luckily, both the PHs were successful in putting the lion down but it easily could have went awry.

I have seen lots of free-range lions in Africa and will hunt one for the first time later this year but I have zero experience hunting lion so far. So, I am certainly no expert on lions. I have tried to learn as much about them as I can from the PHs that have guided me. From what I have seen and learned so far, I think lions are generally more dangerous than a brown bear but both are very dangerous when wounded. Brown bears react to a shot by spinning around, biting at the wound and then looking around for the cause of the pain, and then might charge, much like a lion. Shooting a lion or brown bear that is agitated with a bow is asking for trouble.

While I don’t have a problem guiding archers for brown bear, I make it clear to them that I will be shooting the bear with my Lott if it charges or heads towards heavy cover. Period. If they don’t like my rules, they are welcome to book with someone else. I would also never take part in an archery hunt where the idea is to provoke a charge so that I could kill the animal for the hunter and get it on tape. A whole lot of ego being exercised in the OP video!

 

[Sarg]

I have only assisted on the one Lion hunt & it charged after being wounded (grazed) with a Cross Bow bolt, my guiding partner shot it in the head with his .416 Rigby (I later asked why the head thus wrecking the Skull he said F#@K him !) before the hunt when talking to the guys they said expect to be in a charge as nearly 100% percent charged after being bumped a couple of times .

I to want a Free Range Lion but will never be able to afford one the way things are going, they said it is way safer hunting Wild Lions then released Lions as tracking only & these are not Pets or half tame Lions, not born in the Wild but no way tame !

Not many Client hunters are charged by Wild Lion (I would say near none) PH yes Clients no !

As mostly in this day & age you sit in a blind waiting for a known male in the area to come to a bait hanging in a tree, then it is checked for age before being shot !

I have shot a few Bears, many Blacks with a Brown & Grizz, also helped on a wounded Grizz, I think the whole hunt is more dangerous for Brown Bear & Grizzly than a Free range lion hunt sitting in a blind, dangerous maybe getting into & back to the Bakkie ?

I must say hunting in a area with Lions is thrilling & Lions do put me on edge, same with Elephant !

Oh on the cross bow or bow hunting DG certainly thick skinned DG, I'm not 100% sure that is legal in hind sight but I was only a helper !