If this is lion hunting…. You can have it

[Philip Glass]

I’m paraphrasing here..

Don’t hunt leopard with hounds! It’s “too” dangerous.- Philip Glass

 

[RR 314]

So, does the phrase "Use Enough Gun" apply? To the real hunter it seems that it is more about taking the trophy as ethically and as quickly as possible. And I am sure that a crossbow will do the trick. But will it do so to not have to have a PH save your life. That wouldn't seem to be the goal.

Yes the PH is there on every hunt but would seem like as the hunter we should make sure that we are doing everything to take the animal quicky with a weapon that will meet that criteria. Hence, use enough gun.

But to each his own. As we say in Texas, bless you heart.

No doubt. He should have just shot it with a Red Ryder and let the PH “back him up.”

 

[Rare Breed]

For those of you without Southern ties:

Why bless your heart = My what an idiot you are!

Being born and raised in the fine state of Georgia it is wonderful to find a man who understands the southern language and can interpret. Lol!!!

 

[375Fox]

The moment we get on here and criticize their business and practice, on how is not hunting, and what not, we are telling them. Again, if you don't like it don't do it. Very simple. But don't be another voice for the anti-group by criticizing the practice, especially when it's legal in that particular country.

Now, please tell me how shooting a leopard or lion from a blind on a bait pile is consider hunting???? If you want to get technical about it, that to me is more like shooting, than hunting. The PH knows the pattern of the animal, I'm sure they are on camera, and what not. BTW, I don't criticize their practice, if that is what they want to do, by all means do it. But I'm not going to sit here behind my keyboard and rip them apart by saying how their practice is this and is that.

The antis make a big deal about lions because they know they can sell their scam by saying how cute, and adorable they are. The day the antis come after the deer, dove, quail, turkey, and everything they can think of, it will be too late for our sport.

Do you have an issue because the animal is raised in captivity to be later released and shot. Well, then let's criticize everyone who is in the business of raising pheasant, quail, deer, bison, etc, to be released to later be shot. We don't hear about this because the antis know it doesn't sell. Look at all the commercials about elephants, snow leopards, Bengal Tigers, how they are being slaughter, blah, blah, blah. The left knows how they can touch those soft hearts by feeding and manipulating misinformation. BTW, if you haven't noticed, the leopard is next.

You are entitled to your opinion, the same way I am, and we will probably never look at it the same way. But criticizing and pointing fingers and saying that is not hunting, in a public forum is not healthy. If you don't agree with the practice, move on, turn the page.

From my perspective you are an asset to the anti’s by participating it. I’ll continue to criticize it even if from your perspective that’s giving the anti’s a voice. The practice is indefensible to the general public especially because it has been mixed with tourism and the lion bone trade. It appears those who participate defend it only because it’s affordable choosing to be blind to everything else. I’ll be glad when CBL “hunting” is finally banned and the argument can stop dividing hunters. All other arguments seem quite insignificant compared to this topic.

If I can agree on anything on this subject. I do see value in legal lion bone trade from farmed lions.

 

[Rickmt]

I try to respect my fellow hunters and all the different ways they hunt.
I also respect the animals that are being hunted.
There was no expectation of a clean kill in this hunt.
The animal was shown no respect.
The lion expected to be fed.
Perhaps consider a 5 year release before hunting and 25,000 acre minimum.
Oh I forgot, it is all about the money.

 

[TOBY458]

I think would should take some time to recognize the camera man's balls of steel.

 

[IvW]

Who is would?

 

[375Fox]

Now, please tell me how shooting a leopard or lion from a blind on a bait pile is consider hunting???? If you want to get technical about it, that to me is more like shooting, than hunting. The PH knows the pattern of the animal, I'm sure they are on camera, and what not. BTW, I don't criticize their practice, if that is what they want to do, by all means do it. But I'm not going to sit here behind my keyboard and rip them apart by saying how their practice is this and is that.

This comparison has been made before and still has no basis. Arguing a hunting method is one thing, following the money is something very different.
A lion hunt or a leopard hunt in a wild area provides conservation value. The outfitter is obviously making a profit too or he wouldn’t be there. However, the animal was born wild and only because area was protected. The money spent contributes towards anti-poaching on a 100k-500k acre area. The money allows outfitter to fight cattle and farming encroaching on the area. Hunting 5(?) leopard and 2(?) lions on a sustainable quota protects a huge wild area and allows a lot of other species to exist there. It is a defendable practice even if you don’t like the method used.
I don’t disagree with tracking used for CBL shooting. I really don’t care what method is used. The animal was only born to generate a profit. Whether that be cub petting, lion bones, or being shot by a hunter or a mix of all three. The money trail is very different because none goes back into conservation just raising more lions to repeat process. This is no different than raising sheep or cattle just higher profits. The 17,000 acres you shot your CBL on, how many lions were released and shot that year 10? 50? 100? It definitely generates profit, but the land would be a game farm anyway with or without releasing lions every 7 days or 30 days or whatever the claim may be, so there is no added conservation value. CBL shooting goes against all claims of sustainable hunting and cannot be defended to public. I would really like to hear from a hunter that selected their CBL lion from pen, participated in moving it from breeding facility, then “hunted” it a week later. I don’t think this argument of calling it hunting or farming would be taking place.

 

[BSO Dave]

We are talking past one another.

Yes.. I think some of my replies psoted before your comments posted. I see where you clarified some of your comments after I had already replied..

I believe you and I were both in professions where decisions can have very decisive consequences. I choose to believe that most people would find being responsible for initiating a set of actions that led to injury or death of another person, however much they paid him, a burden they just as soon would not have to live with for the rest of their lives. I believe we have a responsibility to do everything in our power to lessen the likelihood of that happening.

I agree in principle, but real-life expereince has taught me otherwise.. After 30+ year career in law enforcement I am no longer suprised by what anyone is willing of doing for money, and the risks they are willing to take for very disproprtionate rewards..

As I noted above, I have not hunted dangerous game with a bow, but over twenty years when I used one, I took probably 25 deer and half a dozen pigs. I think you and I would agree that the hunter in the clip had no business taking the shot he did with a bow of any sort. I think you and I would also agree that shot was imminently makeable with a .375 or .416. The lethality envelope is larger for a rifle whether hunting a Virginia deer or African lion or buffalo.

Here we are in agreement except, not for the weapon of choice, but the choices made with the weapon..

I simply believe most people and the animals they hunt, particularly a DG animal, are best served by taking full advantage of that added capability.

If your sole implication is that a rifle, by all measurable standards, is a more efficent weapon than archery gear, I absolutely agree..

 

[TOBY458]

Who is would?

Would is we. Lol!

 

[John Wasmuth]

From my perspective you are an asset to the anti’s by participating it. I’ll continue to criticize it even if from your perspective that’s giving the anti’s a voice. The practice is indefensible to the general public especially because it has been mixed with tourism and the lion bone trade. It appears those who participate defend it only because it’s affordable choosing to be blind to everything else. I’ll be glad when CBL “hunting” is finally banned and the argument can stop dividing hunters. All other arguments seem quite insignificant compared to this topic.

If I can agree on anything on this subject. I do see value in legal lion bone trade from farmed lions.

I am so thankful that you are not in charge of anything that at has to do with anything that has to do with anything that has to do with anything that has to do with anything that that has to do with cbl or a thing to do with South African hunting at all. People like you are everything that’s wrong with hunting period. You are wrong period and you will never do anything that will help africa. You will forever be a mump on africas ass.

 

[Tundra Tiger]

I don't always see the same side with everyone on here, @375Fox included. For example: I could be talked into a CBL hunt. Financially, it's what would be the most likely avenue for my personal bottom line. However, I'd do my due diligence, just like I did when I was planning my first trip to South Africa: property size, time from release. Assuming I found something that felt "right" for me, I'd do a hunt like that in a heartbeat. If there was just nothing out there that fit with what I was looking for, I'd pass. I share this because I know @375Fox would not be interested in such a hunt, and I'd like to think we can respectfully disagree. I certainly don't believe he has nothing to contribute. Quite the opposite. There are so many experienced, willing-to-share members of this forum that have been very helpful to me, whether directly or for their contributions to conversations where I only read and watch. @375Fox is one.

I don't know anyone on this site personally, except maybe @everett (Hi!), but there's a lot of folks I'd happily share a hunt with, even the ones with whom I don't agree 100%.

 

[Traveler1]

This thread has to be on the longest I have read non-stop. On the video, when the host was practicing, he was shooting like 27-30 yards. On the hunt if you want to call that a hunt that's your prerogative, I calling it shooting. The PH kept saying 43, like it was maybe out of the host's comfortably range which I totally agree with. If it had been closer than end scenery might have been different. Lastly, I have never expressed my opinion here anywhere else on CBL. In short, I don't agree with them, but then again, I don't agree with shooting pen raised deer here in Texas either. But I will say that if the hunter/shooter knows how the hunt is going to conducted prior to arrival then I see no issue and I will support them either way. Side note, I have several friends that hunt pen raised deer every year and they asked me how could I shoot an elephant it just a big dumb animal!

One last thought on CBL, I grapple with this in my head. I am not in favor out it because I no longer have any interest in shooting predators? Except for the corn stealing coons that spin my feeder. Or is because most the CBL hunts I have seen videos of the cats are in small enclosures and don't appear to acting the same way as wild lions?

Enough on my two cents. I thought I might make a comment to few quotes.

I have now hunted all my life. From recurves making my own arrows to compounds to cross bows. I have taken over 100 white tail deer with this combination. The big difference here to me is not will any form of archery kill DG…it is the clearly extra danger that can happen. I can completely understand @redkegs “come on man” comment. Can a rifle hunter bungle a shot on DG…yes. Does anyone really think any type of archery will drop any DG animal unless spine hit? Only my POV and I know will upset some on here…I just do not feel archery for DG makes sense. PG…have at it

"Only my POV and I know will upset some on here…I just do not feel archery for DG makes sense. PG…have at it"
They said the same thing about handgun hunting back in the mid 80's. When I first started handgun hunting in Africa. I remember when the Zimbabwe Parks Dept would not issue me trophy bull permit, as they felt it was not safe for handgun and a hunter of my age. So I took a non trophy bull instead. Like yourself I hunt mainly with a bow (recurve) now. If the anumal is past 25 yards, I pass, as I hunt with 44lbs. Modern Archery equipment has taken leaps and bounds, I can remember 60% let off was unfathomable. No with 80-90% almost any bow hunter can take bigger game With the right equipment, DG can be taken with a bow "safely" just ever less "safely" then a rifle/pistol. If the DG is past 35 yards, it does make sense to me. To many variables.

You'd think crossbow guy would have a rifle sitting next to him and switch to it right after he shot the arrow. For the inevitable charge..... I know I'd want to be able to help out in that situation instead of standing there just hoping to not die.

You hit the nail on the head. I agree 100%. I carry my 454 Casull or 45 depending on the game.

 

[375Fox]

I am so thankful that you are not in charge of anything that at has to do with anything that has to do with anything that has to do with anything that has to do with anything that that has to do with cbl or a thing to do with South African hunting at all. People like you are everything that’s wrong with hunting period. You are wrong period and you will never do anything that will help africa. You will forever be a mump on africas ass.

I think the professionalism in your response speaks volumes.

 

[IvW]

The biggest issue here for me is video and footage which seemed to be the main objective.....and then broadcasting this shit all over the world.....sensationalising the whole lot.....
Same as an elephant hunt I saw footage of....so many shots fired.....bad ones....noises and what not continuesly until the elephant eventually succumed to brass poisoning ......no editing.....
Yes shit happens and things do not always go to plan but do they really need to broadcast all of it just for the sensation side of it?
This guy is not a hunter just an old sensation seeking small dick syndrome individual......

 

[Hunter-Habib]

My thoughts:

1) Not a bow hunter, but have absolutely nothing against it. The late Fred Bear was a bow hunter (and that too, of dangerous game) and I can safely say that he was far more skilled with archery than many of us are with firearms. But it goes without saying that when using a bow, you are essentially going to have to be far more restrictive with your shots than with a rifle. You have more limitations when hunting with a bow and you should take them into consideration before deciding to hunt a 500 LB carnivore with said bow. Sort of like how a hunter using an open sighted double rifle is more limited in terms of the shots that he can take, than a hunter armed with a telescopic sighted bolt action rifle.

2) The individual in the video is not a hunter and shouldn’t even once be referred to as such. He’s an attention seeking halfwit who wanted to make himself “Stand out” by using his little toy on a lion and videoing the results for all to see. When his little farce (predictably) went south, he still decided to broadcast it… clearly having learnt nothing from his failure. It almost seems to me as if he made that shot knowing full well that it will not bring the lion down. These sort of people should be made to go after dangerous game while using a crossbow WITHOUT the white hunter to save them. There’d be 1 less idiot the world has to worry about. These people aren’t just a threat to themselves, but to all other members of the hunting party as sell.

3) I absolutely love hunting lion and I’ve shot 7 over the years (till now). I’ve participated in 1 captive bred lion hunt and it was not to my liking. It can and never will come even remotely close to hunting truly wild lion (my favorite place for this being Tanzania). As someone who’s hunted both wild lions and captive bred lions, I’ll say that it’s like comparing chalk and cheese. You can’t even remotely compare the 2. I would rather go on 1 truly wild lion hunt than 100 captive bred lion hunts. Nevertheless, I don’t think that captive bred lion hunting should be outright banned even though it’s not for me. Even though I will never hunt another captive bred lion ever again, I understand that many hunters can’t afford truly wild lion hunting. Captive bred lion hunting panders to that market of hunters. And yes, game farms have indubitably aided in saving numerous species from extinction.

I’ll conclude with one point: If anybody thinks that anti hunters will leave us alone, if we ban captive bred lion hunting… then, they couldn’t be more wrong. These people won’t rest until even hunting doves gets banned.

 

[revturbo9967]

I am so thankful that you are not in charge of anything that at has to do with anything that has to do with anything that has to do with anything that has to do with anything that that has to do with cbl or a thing to do with South African hunting at all. People like you are everything that’s wrong with hunting period. You are wrong period and you will never do anything that will help africa. You will forever be a mump on africas ass.

I’d like to say that 375fox has done more for Africas conservation through hunting dollars than 90% of the contributors on this topic. He is educated from experience, not opinionated from reading a thread on a forum, like most of the keyboard warriors on the internet. Period.

 

[jey3122]

I think what scares me the most is how hunters just keep having a go at each other. How people here do not understand cbl or wild lion or for that matter any animal hunted is a target for anti hunters to stop.

From hunters having a problem with a weapon like the crossbow was the problem not the bad shot which can happen with any weapon. It just makes me wonder why as a group we feel the need to attack other hunters.

A so called wild lion brought more bad press towards hunting then anything I can remember when cecil was killed. Some how I dont remember seeing all the hate towards zim for such a hunt. Why because some people just have Sa on there mind as the only place for bad hunts happening. I know it maybe hard to believe for some but if zim or any place in africa does not make money on hunts they do they would not be in business. Hunting is a business for outfitters and makes the funds for helping wildlife and areas stay opened for hunting.

I never thought on a hunting site I would see so many hunters go at each other over and over like it helps us all in some way. From some are hunters to some are just shooters to what weapons a guy uses. It just never ends on how we decide to tear each other down for a sport/hobby we all love.

 

[Red Leg]

I think what scares me the most is how hunters just keep having a go at each other. How people here do not understand cbl or wild lion or for that matter any animal hunted is a target for anti hunters to stop.

From hunters having a problem with a weapon like the crossbow was the problem not the bad shot which can happen with any weapon. It just makes me wonder why as a group we feel the need to attack other hunters.

A so called wild lion brought more bad press towards hunting then anything I can remember when cecil was killed. Some how I dont remember seeing all the hate towards zim for such a hunt. Why because some people just have Sa on there mind as the only place for bad hunts happening. I know it maybe hard to believe for some but if zim or any place in africa does not make money on hunts they do they would not be in business. Hunting is a business for outfitters and makes the funds for helping wildlife and areas stay opened for hunting.

I never thought on a hunting site I would see so many hunters go at each other over and over like it helps us all in some way. From some are hunters to some are just shooters to what weapons a guy uses. It just never ends on how we decide to tear each other down for a sport/hobby we all love.

This is drifting into another CBL debate, but your comment pretty well sums up the issue with CBL "hunting." It is indeed a practice that divides the hunting community. Though both DSC's and SCI's determination that such hunts are not considered "fair chase" means the division is likely pretty heavily weighted against such hunts among hunters other than perhaps those on this forum.

 

[IvW]

It is about the stupid video footage for own image and how it is published that causes the damage....nothing else....idiots giving the antis ammo.....
There are too many fools in hunting for the wrong reasons.....as soon as video footage and the publication thereof comes into play the rest goes out the door......

This guy is an idiot and should be told so....simple he will be long gine and pushing daisis and the shit he spread world wide will still be on air.....

If anybody thinks publishing this crap is fine and good for hunting.....well then stop giving orher hunters shit for voicing their opinion....

This crap is bad for all hunters