If this is lion hunting…. You can have it

[Tundra Tiger]

@VertigoBE ... I do believe we share much more in common on thoughts about such things than not. Enjoy your night sir.

 

[VertigoBE]

@VertigoBE ... I do believe we share much more in common on thoughts about such things than not. Enjoy your night sir.

I very much agree with you on this. Have a great afternoon!

 

[HankBuck]

I agree with everything you posted here.. Especially in regard to the hypocrisy of many hunters throwing stones from their glass shooting houses.. I also agree that a lot of needless hand-wringing goes on about the perception of hunting in the eyes of the anti-hunters. Reasoning an fact is wasted on their behalf..

I see two separate controversies from the video:

One is in regard to the ethics of CBL hunting which I think you already addressed reasonably well..

The other is in regard to the ethics of dangerous game hunting with archery equipment which I will address personally below under Wishfulthinker's post..



Why would hunters stray form crossbows or any other archery equipment of that matter? The controversy over the lion hunt with Dr. Palmer (which was a wild lion over bait by the way) had nothing to do with the fact he was hunting with a crossbow other than the ignorant, libelous, media attempted to make it seem somehow more inhumane.. If your comment is an implication that archery equipment is less ethical than rifle hunting I vehemently disagree, and I am happy to have that debate with you..



Not sure what this is about? But, if it's another implication about archery equipment, please say what you mean and we can have that discussion..



Why? I assume you don't bowhunt or know many who do and have hunted dangerous game with archery equipment to any extent? I have, and I disagree... Archery equipment, just like a rifle, is only as good as the hunter who holds it. Hunting DG with a bow or crossbow is arguably more dangerous and risky, but certainly not less ethical.. It's ultimately the hunter's responsibility to know their equipment, use it proficiently, and also know their limitations regardless of the weapon used..

We can have the discussion that a perfectly placed first rifle shot is more immediately lethal that a perfectly placed arrow shaft or bolt, but less than perfect shot placement, regardless of the weapon, can provoke a charge just as easily.

I found the video interesting for several reasons and also the many responses that both support and oppose CBP hunts. I was impressed by the final shot made by the PH - a pressure shot, well executed regardless of what led up to the charge....that PH did his job very well. I am an avid bow hunter and have taken many deer and several black bear with my compound bow (all do-it-yourself-hunts) - none of my bear hunts would be considered dangerous (Grizzly would be different). I’m not opposed to hunting truly dangerous game with a bow “if” you accept the risk. In the event you need to have a Rifle back up (sometimes required by law) - makes sense if needed to save your life or life of others or from letting a wounded animal escape. But (and it’s a big But for me) I would never consider any animal that my PH had to put his bullet in - to be a trophy, would Never get that animal mounted, would never be proud of it....I might not be ashamed of it but if I needed “help” to take it - it’s Not a trophy to me. I’ve had Guides tell me that many clients “ask the guide” to shoot immediately after the client takes his first shot, some hunters don’t care who’s bullet killed the animal - they just want to go home with a trophy and a “story”. Nothing would RUIN a hunt for me more then my guide finishing off an animal that I wounded. (And even the Guide telling me that “my shot would’ve been fatal eventually etc..” does Not make me feel any better. That does Not mean the guide was wrong - he may have saved my life or the life of others but that’s because I SCREWED UP....and I don’t consider that anything to be proud of. As far as the ethics of a CBL hunt - it’s not anything I’m interested in but I don’t think it’s wrong...that animal was bred specifically to be harvested (like pen raised pheasant & quail) and it might even preserve the life of a truly Wild Lion from be killed. That’s my opinion And only based on my limited experience and personal views. I would not criticize or attack people that go on CBL hunts and although I agree it gives the Anti’s fuel for their Anti Hunting Campaigns —- what doesn’t ?

 

[HankBuck]

I'm not sure the implication is any different? Inappropriate in what specific regard?

Regardless, I respectfully disagree based on my 40+ years of bowhunting and taking multiple DG species in several continents...



What evidence are you using to base this assumption? The PH will likely have to step in about 50% of the time regardless of the weapon.. Unfortunately, statistics for frequency of this occurring in rifle vs. bowhunting do not exist... Anyone's opinion on this, including mine, is anecdotally based..

I'd wager that the frequency for the necessity of a follow-up rifle shot on a wounded DG animal is much more dependent on the hunter's experience and proficiency rather than the weapon used.. If anything, it's been my experience that bowhunters, by and large, are much more competent, confident, and practiced with their equipment comparatively to rifle hunters simply because proficiency with a vertical bow is much more difficult to attain than with a rifle.

Furthermore, a crossbow (no disrespect to crossbow hunters) is not the same as a vertical bow by any measure.. Any modern crossbow set up properly is just as accurate and consistent as a rifle out to 100 yards..

You raise good points and logical argument, lost me a little on a modern crossbow “just as accurate & consistent as rifle out to 100 yrds”. I don’t disagree with everything you said but the Rifle/CrossBow comparison was a stretch. It is true - a cross bow is capable of 1-2” accuracy at 100 yrds sometimes and always under ideal circumstances, no wind, and a perfectly still target that “holds” for the 0.9 - 1.0 seconds that arrow/bolt takes to cover 100 yrds. Sound travels twice as fast as the fastest cross bow arrow - an animals reaction time can (upon hearing the cross bow fire) can “move the target” 1-2 feet in a 1/10 of a second....ask any cross bow hunter that’s had a deer Jump-the-string at 35 yrds causing a miss or off hit. Cross bows are incredibly accurate but Are Not identical to a rife under real hunting situations. I’ve never seen a deer “duck my bullet” at 35 yrds.

 

[HankBuck]

So is getting in the ring with a Spanish fighting bull.

We have a video of two controversial subjects - pen raised lions released to be shot, and attempting to humanely kill an apex predator with either inadequate equipment or expertise.

We have a fat old guy wandering around a fenced area with a released lion that he is going to bravely stick with a short arrow, and he is so confident with his ability that he apparently has paid for an additional PH to clean up any mess he makes. What's not to like about such a scenario? Should be great video for hunters and antis alike. I frankly find the whole thing rather pathetic.

Setting aside the efficacy of CBL hunts, what puzzles me about stunt hunts is the apparent total lack of concern about anyone else in the parade marching through the bush. I think even most experienced bow hunters (I haven't hunted African DG with a bow, but I took a lot of deer with one before giving up the practice twenty years ago) - regardless of tackle - would agree that the likelihood of a charge is greater with a bow than with a rifle. Were the "hunter" the only one at risk, then fine. But he isn't. Is he prepared to support the widow and family of the tracker if he is the one killed or maimed? Likely not.

And back to that efficacy issue, unless something has changed, both DSC and SCI have taken very negative positions with the regard to the practice of CBL hunting or calling it "fair Chase" with whatever tool is chosen for the task.

Understand your point about “risk” to all involved and Not just the Hunter — think that assertion is a correct one...but that’s a risk the PH and all involved signed up for and get paid for....the Hunter did’nt sign up for a rifle hunt and then whip out a bow, or start off with a bow for Impala then decide to pop a Lion. If the PH feels the risk level unacceptable they should Not take clients bow hunting for DG (and some PH will Not). For me, this is a conscious decision made by both Hunter and PH, it has been well thought out and risk assessed - All parties decided to go forward. I can’t blame the bow hunter for that (even though I would Not bow hunt dangerous African Game)

 

[375Fox]

I’ve had Guides tell me that many clients “ask the guide” to shoot immediately after the client takes his first shot, some hunters don’t care who’s bullet killed the animal - they just want to go home with a trophy and a “story”. Nothing would RUIN a hunt for me more then my guide finishing off an animal that I wounded. (And even the Guide telling me that “my shot would’ve been fatal eventually etc..” does Not make me feel any better.

I take some offense at your characterization of hunters who ask the PH to back them up. The situation in the video obviously falls into it’s own category though. He was never prepared to finish it from the start. I tell my PHs on every hunt, plains game or dangerous game to shoot after the first shot if they are at all uncertain or have an opportunity when we follow up. It has nothing to do with going home with a trophy. I don’t want a wounded animal because of a mistake I made. It doesn’t take away from the hunting experience in any way for me. The only two occasions I can remember my PH shooting are a red hartebeest approaching the boundary line when I was a kid and a giraffe more recently to make sure dropped close to road. I haven’t had a need on dangerous game, but it wouldn’t take away from my hunting experience in any way. Most PHs do not want to shoot. Not discussing back up shots with PH is an ego issue to me.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

What "Lack of results" are you referring to....not finding "Deer with arrows sticking out of them?"

Now you're going to say this doesn't happen? Oh please. One guy I was hunting with arrowed a deer and couldn't find it. I followed the blood trail until it stopped and then got dark. The next day I searched some more but found no more blood. About a week later I found it accidentally about a quarter mile from where we lost the blood trail. The "x" on the throat was unmistakable, it was the same deer. Another friend once told me that he had shown t 11 deer with a bow before he recovered one. One time my cousin and I found a dead buck that had been shot and died on a piece of property that we hd leased for hunting. He still had the arrow with an old Ben Pearson broadhead. No one else should have been hunting in there so the archer was a poacher and may have shot from the road, but it was still a dead deer with an arrow sticking in him. So yes, it does happen quite often.

 

[HankBuck]

How many hunters go into DG hunt and the PH carries a rifle? Let's reverse it, and say, if it were not required by law, how many DG gun hunters would do it without the rifle back of the PH?

I think thats a great question, and I think some Hunters would go on a DG hunt without a PH back up rifle. I have asked my PH in Africa and Guide in Alaska (on Griz hunt) “please do Not put a bullet into my animal unless it poses a likely risk to you or others - Nothing would diminish my trophy more that having someone else’s bullet in it”. Now, I accept that if I made a bad shot or several bad follow up shots and the animal might get off wounded - Yes the Guide will have to shoot and I am the one to Blame. I just tried to keep the Guide from making an immediate “insurance shot” and asked him to refrain if possible - he understood my preference and I understood that IF he shoot - it had to be done.

 

[HankBuck]

I take some offense at your characterization of hunters who ask the PH to back them up. The situation in the video obviously falls into it’s own category though. He was never prepared to finish it from the start. I tell my PHs on every hunt, plains game or dangerous game to shoot after the first shot if they are at all uncertain or have an opportunity when we follow up. It has nothing to do with going home with a trophy. I don’t want a wounded animal because of a mistake I made. It doesn’t take away from the hunting experience in any way for me. The only two occasions I can remember my PH shooting are a red hartebeest approaching the boundary line when I was a kid and a giraffe more recently to make sure dropped close to road. I haven’t had a need on dangerous game, but it wouldn’t take away from my hunting experience in any way. Most PHs do not want to shoot. Not discussing back up shots with PH is an ego issue to me.

Well I think I did “discuss follow up shots” with my PH and Guide - in great detail. oth understood my “wants” and both also told me they would try to accommodate me BUT —— NOT if the animal might get away wounded or put someone at risk. I accepted that. Some hunters don’t care who finishes off their trophy - some do....I’m one that does. It is not ego - its feeling that I failed, no one to blame but Me. Makes me very careful in my shot selection and I think helps keep me focused, realistic and grounded.

 

[Scott CWO]

I think thats a great question, and I think some Hunters would go on a DG hunt without a PH back up rifle. I have asked my PH in Africa and Guide in Alaska (on Griz hunt) “please do Not put a bullet into my animal unless it poses a likely risk to you or others - Nothing would diminish my trophy more that having someone else’s bullet in it”. Now, I accept that if I made a bad shot or several bad follow up shots and the animal might get off wounded - Yes the Guide will have to shoot and I am the one to Blame. I just tried to keep the Guide from making an immediate “insurance shot” and asked him to refrain if possible - he understood my preference and I understood that IF he shoot - it had to be done.

An Alaskan guide is required by law to help dispatch wounded game and if a hunter wounds a brown bear, the hunter cannot shoot another one. Draw blood and that’s your bear.

I don’t immediately follow up the hunters I guide but if you’re not getting the job done and the bear is wounded and heading into heavy cover, I will shoot. The hunter’s life and mine are more important than pride.

 

[375Fox]

Well I think I did “discuss follow up shots” with my PH and Guide - in great detail. oth understood my “wants” and both also told me they would try to accommodate me BUT —— NOT if the animal might get away wounded or put someone at risk. I accepted that. Some hunters don’t care who finishes off their trophy - some do....I’m one that does. It is not ego - its feeling that I failed, no one to blame but Me. Makes me very careful in my shot selection and I think helps keep me focused, realistic and grounded.

I read that differently than your first post. There is some overlap we agree on. I think I look at hunting with a guide as more of a team effort than others do.

 

[WAB]

I think thats a great question, and I think some Hunters would go on a DG hunt without a PH back up rifle. I have asked my PH in Africa and Guide in Alaska (on Griz hunt) “please do Not put a bullet into my animal unless it poses a likely risk to you or others - Nothing would diminish my trophy more that having someone else’s bullet in it”. Now, I accept that if I made a bad shot or several bad follow up shots and the animal might get off wounded - Yes the Guide will have to shoot and I am the one to Blame. I just tried to keep the Guide from making an immediate “insurance shot” and asked him to refrain if possible - he understood my preference and I understood that IF he shoot - it had to be done.

I guess it depends on your experience and confidence. I have done quite a bit of grizzly hunting without a guide. I can’t imagine an African who grew up hunting in the bush would feel the need for a PH.

 

[1dirthawker]

Anyone who has successfully archery hunted white tail deer with has had perfectly hit deer run a LONG way after receiving a lethal hit. I would say that the deer I have killed have averaged 50 yards before succumbing. So when I consider archery hunting a dangerous game animal, I can’t help but feel like archery gear is not up to the task. Which quite simply is to incapacitate the animal as quickly as possible so as not to receive a charge from an adrenalized dangerous animal.

hi doug,

you should watch the bowhunting video from grizzly stick on hunting cape buffalo. probably 25-30 buffalo shot with a bow, (not sure if any were killed with a gun due to editing) and quite a few die on camera. archery gear is quite capable of killing the largest animals.

that said, pushing an apex predator, (tracking) and then sticking him with an arrow as opposed to shooting a lion at a bait from a blind are 2 completely different scenarios. hunting that same lion with a 375, with similar shot placement would quite possibly have gotten a charge as well.

a bow is NOT a backup weapon. but, can it kill animals quickly and effectively, for sure it can. i am on record stating that tracking lions and shooting them with a bow WITHOUT a PH will end up having a dead hunter within 3-4 hunts. you just can't push a lion and expect to shoot him with a sharp stick and not get get a bad result. again, shooting from a blind, not as dangerous.

 

[Red Leg]

Understand your point about “risk” to all involved and Not just the Hunter — think that assertion is a correct one...but that’s a risk the PH and all involved signed up for and get paid for....the Hunter did’nt sign up for a rifle hunt and then whip out a bow, or start off with a bow for Impala then decide to pop a Lion. If the PH feels the risk level unacceptable they should Not take clients bow hunting for DG (and some PH will Not). For me, this is a conscious decision made by both Hunter and PH, it has been well thought out and risk assessed - All parties decided to go forward. I can’t blame the bow hunter for that (even though I would Not bow hunt dangerous African Game)

I never said that the PH didn’t sign up for the job or permit the shot. Though I suspect the tracker’s options were more than a little limited. But that was not my point. Most people have no experience in decision making that can lead to death or serious injury. Those who have, rarely need reminding of the lifelong burden that can, even should, entail. Living with the knowledge that a curve was taken a hair faster than it should have been in existing conditions is the sort of thing most people who experience such fateful decisions relive for the remainder of their lives. Badly placing an arrow (or a bullet) into a lion, CBL or wild, would be, I would suggest - even hope - a far more burdensome experience. I suppose there are those who would truly absolve themselves of any responsibility by saying the PH took the money and took his chances. I would suspect - again hope - that would not be the rationalization of most here when faced with such an aftermath. It is why all of us should be truly honest with ourselves with respect to our equipment and our skill set before initiating a shot at a DG animal. The guy in the video is an example of one who clearly wasn’t.

 

[Shakka]

Now you're going to say this doesn't happen? Oh please. One guy I was hunting with arrowed a deer and couldn't find it. I followed the blood trail until it stopped and then got dark. The next day I searched some more but found no more blood. About a week later I found it accidentally about a quarter mile from where we lost the blood trail. The "x" on the throat was unmistakable, it was the same deer. Another friend once told me that he had shown t 11 deer with a bow before he recovered one. One time my cousin and I found a dead buck that had been shot and died on a piece of property that we hd leased for hunting. He still had the arrow with an old Ben Pearson broadhead. No one else should have been hunting in there so the archer was a poacher and may have shot from the road, but it was still a dead deer with an arrow sticking in him. So yes, it does happen quite often.

No, I am not saying that it doesn't happen but to suggest that the author finds deer with arrows sticking out of it like a pincushion it total BS and he knows it

Yes bowhunters do lose deer but it is, or should be, a rarity, that lays heavy on your heart

PD If your friend shot 11 deer! before he killed one, he has no business bowhunting and I certainly wouldn't call him a Bowhunter

 

[HankBuck]

An Alaskan guide is required by law to help dispatch wounded game and if a hunter wounds a brown bear, the hunter cannot shoot another one. Draw blood and that’s your bear.

I don’t immediately follow up the hunters I guide but if you’re not getting the job done and the bear is wounded and heading into heavy cover, I will shoot. The hunter’s life and mine are more important than pride.

I’m familiar with much of what is required for Alaska Guides - Alaska game laws are some of the most strick in the U.S. Also it’s Exactly what I understood my Alaska Guide would do 15 years ago - and would Not want it any other way. My point was only that I’d be disappointed (in Myself) if i ended up in that situation and it would detract from the overall experience for Me....others might not be as bothered. Had a friend take a Griz and it was shot 4 times - upon skinning it only one bullet was his (gut). His guide saved the day but that hunter never mentions the “details” when he talks about the Big Griz that HE killed up in Alaska. I’m sure Guide see clients like this fairly often - but it was new to me.

 

[dobber]

So yes, it does happen quite often.

Watch this for fun and without foundation or facts
I knew a guy who shot a deer with a gun and it got away, happens more frequently with guns than with archery equipment

I have arrowed a few bears, one dropped within sight less than 15 yards, another 50 yards, my son stuck one and it went 300 yards, all about placement
But back on topic, nope not trying for a lion on foot with archery, that's just asking for trouble

 

[Pavel U]

This thread has been an interesting read, with many opinions given, some more experience driven than others.

The way I see it (and I’ll exclude baited-sitting-in-a-blind) when hunting, once an animal is located, identified to be an ethical offtake and the decision to take that particular specimen is made, the hunter does not have the moral obligation to “just” kill the intended target.

The hunter rather has the moral obligation to kill the animal with the least amount of suffering possible. Basically the intention should be that the time between touching the “trigger” and the animal expiring is as uneventful and painless as possible. Mistakes will be made of course, but it is up to the ethical hunter to put everything on his or her side to accomplish this goal.

This is why the ethical sporthunter will speak with dread about traps and snares found, who will kill just as well, but indiscriminately and causing a lot of suffering.

I have never bow hunted in my life, and probably will not. I can see the attraction of being more physically involved at the time of the shot, the obligation to creep in closer to the target and therefore higher difficulty level. But I fail to see why one cannot just stalk within 40m with a rifle.

A rifle is simply more appropriate, than a bow, a spear, a knife, a rock, throwing your Courtney’s after the animal. It will allow making a well placed shot easier, the animal cannot “outrun” the sound of a string, much more energy is in a bullet than an arrow (I think, but could be wrong about this), you can have an immediate second shot, and have a much bigger chance of shooting a moving target. Also when it is fleeing from the initial shot outside of the perimeter where an arrow is effective.

When then calculating as well for dangerous game, walk and stalk style, all the advantages of gun over bow (or spear, or knife or your boots) compound even more.

As it is your duty as the ethical sporthunter to reduce the time between touch of the trigger and final expiry of the animal as much as possible, not only for the suffering of the animal, but now also for the safety of the other bystanders, a bow seems even less appropriate (I repeat, in walk and stalk, I’m excluding blind hunting)

Now why go hunting for dangerous game with less than the best performing bullet, caliber, gun, optic, training combination? (Finding just this out is half of all the discussions on AH!) is it bravado? Showing of your skills? Proving a point? Each one will have their reasons and be very eloquent about it, but a fast and drama free expiry of the animal was not the primary motivator.

With non dangerous game I might have a bit more understanding. But for DG where the safety of others comes into play, wanting to use a less then most optimal tool to take the animal. Whether a bow, black powder rifle, single shot, a 22LR, your boots or whatever, compared to the biggest caliber you can expertly operate, with the best bullet, out of the best rifle, with the best optic, I do not understand the why. Ethics seem to take a back step to other motivations.

That being said, I would not forbid it, you do you, but I’d be much more reserved about it when communicating about it.

This particular video should not have been made, and I have little respect for anyone involved in its making.

Anyway, my opinion, everyone has one.

V.

Hi @VertigoBE , like your post very much as always. There is one thing though which I see differently (it is about bowhunting – even though I do not bowhunt, I find bowhunting ethical – if done properly - and I agree more with @Tundra Tiger). Allow me to offer another perspective and please bear with me (there is a method in my madness).

Unfortunately there is no “Universe Rulebook of what is Ethical and what is not”. Every individual has to decide. And that is what we have Empathy for (or should have).

… When I was young my mother had cancer. My father working, I spent every day several months with her, because she cannot move by herself, instead of attending the university (I catched up later though). The last weeks were the worst. Everyday fading in pain even the painkillers couldn’t fully kill. Since that I know this is not how I want to die. And we all die and nobody knows when. My mother didn’t reach 40 years. I mention this, because it formed my view on the topic.

… How do I decide what is ethical kill (for me)? Easily: Would I be willing to be killed that way? If I had to die? (Of course I do not want to be killed – I do not want to die either – ever! ).

Being shot in the heart while going to work, or eating my lunch if I was unaware of any danger at all? – I would be okay with that. Actually idea of that happening makes me enjoy the life more every day I live. To enjoy every moment I have been given. And I don’t care whether my arteries being crushed to jelly by hydroshock, or cut open by razor sharp blades in a blink of an eye. I can “live” with both (even though saying it I might prefer the sharp blades). I have seen what these broadheads can do.

Being chased through woods by dogs, running with my family for our lives and being shot at. Then wounded and surrounded by aggressive dogs, fighting in desperate attempt to find the way out until someone came and gave me final blow with knife while being torned to pieces by dog teeth? No, thank You.

From my perspective when it comes to killing animals, there are two options: hunting and killing. Hunting is a game which ends at the moment when the animal becomes aware of my presence. If it does – I’ve lost – and I either give up and walk away or kill (or try) the animal because of game management needs. That I consider necessary yet not ethical. So we play the game of hunting, it is only natural we want to raise the bar gradually and push our limits - therefore I understand why some pick up the bow and later on on DG. Doing everything right makes the success even more satisfying. And being superior to Your former self is our goal.

That said, the lion from the video was to be killed – it was nor hunting nor ethical anymore (according to my moral compass).

I don’t want anybody to accept the opinion and I do not criticise anybody or any practise. I just offer a point of view and a sort of rule of thumb.
Would be glad if You say what do You think of it.

 

[BSO Dave]

The actual stats don't matter. Anyway you slice it, you are going to need a PH to finish off your lion much more often than with a gun hunt.

No sir.. Actually stats and facts do matter because they are what separates truth from blind speculation which is what you have used to make all of your assertions like the one above.. Please get back to me when you have personally participated in some DG bow hunts, and then we can continue with a mutually informed conversation..

You raise good points and logical argument, lost me a little on a modern crossbow “just as accurate & consistent as rifle out to 100 yrds”. I don’t disagree with everything you said but the Rifle/CrossBow comparison was a stretch.

A stretch how exactly? I never made any comparisons as to the difference in either speed or the hydrostatic shock produced in comparing a bullet to a crossbow bolt. The only comparisons I made were in regard to accuracy and consistency that modern crossbows are capable of out to 100 yards..

There are now several manufacturers making crossbows capable of exceeding 500 fps.. At 500fps, you're not going too encounter too many animals capable of string jumping... Additionally, many of these designs now have "hunting rifle" triggers and specialty scopes that meet or exceed the performance of many rifle optics. So, yes, in those specific terms, they are just as accurate and consistent as a rifle out to 100 yards.. That's not a stretch by any measure.. As far as wind goes, bullets are affected by wind just like an arrow.. That's where the proficiency of the hunter comes in knowing his/her's as well as the weapon's limitations in all conditions..

As a lifelong, avid, bowhunter who advocates all legal and ethical methods of hunting, I have no problem with them simply because they are so efficient, and they allow for more hunters to participate in and support hunting.. However, it is for this specific reason that many vertical bowhunters do not regard crossbows as archery gear and oppose their use in archery season..

 

[Doug3006]

I may not have the answer as to whether hunting DG with a bow is advisable. I think it’s up to each hunter to come to their own conclusion. What I will say, with complete confidence, is that modern centerfire rifles are superior weapons to modern archery gear. Each will kill. When used proficiently they both kill effectively. But the rifle gives a hunter an edge that a bow does not. A rifle, even a single shot, is faster to load and shoot multiple times, which is sometimes essential in preventing mayhem. Modern rifle bullets penetrate deeper and impart more kinetic energy than an arrow. No one chooses a bow as a backup weapon…and for good reason. So I get back to my original statement. The odds of getting yourself or someone else hammered by a dangerous beastie are lower when using a rifle.