How safe are safteys?

[Flewis]

Also if the bolt handle comes down a small amount it may be able to fire. For you r8 guys, is the fireing pin freefloating?

 

[Tanks]

...

So for me a trigger block is only slightly more effective than the trigger guard. An intercepting sear is a real safety device.

Still carry my guns open until needed. ...

Heym doubles do have the intercepting sears.

Also, I am not going to walk 10-15 miles with an open gun. Especially when you don't know whether you are going to need it at mile 1 or mile 15. Additionally, an elephant or a buffalo is going to hear you close that gun within shooting range. Same thing in a blind when you have mere seconds to aim and shoot when the leopard or lion is at the bait.

Every PH I have ever hunted DG with asked me to make sure I was loaded up once we left the truck.

 

[zephyr]

To answer your original question it depends on the make of the Double.
The Safety on the Top Tang of most Double Rifles or Shotguns is a Trigger Block, nothing else..it keeps the Trigger from being depressed and that is all, if the gun is jarred and the Sear slips the notch the gun will go off. Better Guns both Box Locks and Side Locks will have intercepting Sears. The intercepting Sear will catch the falling Hammer before it hits the Firing Pin (Striker) much the same way a Hammer Gun with Rebounding Locks work.
But, as mentioned above good mechanical's do not make up for unsafe Gun Handling

 

[flying sailor]

All good advice here. When I teach, Have the safety on until you are sure of your target and ready to fire, ( much abbreviated for here) But never trust the safety, always point the muzzle in a safe direction. I become highly agitated if someone should sweep the line, and say" But the safety is on" They will leave for the day and the board will decide the future of the miscreant.

 

[R eight]

I knew about the Blaser K95 and Krieghoff Hubertus.

I was running “charge box” drills this week with some clients.

I usually run these drills with Mauser 98 action rifles

For the first time we ran the drills with an R8 in .22lr - backstops were not suitable for magnum calibre

we still had the rifle with closed bolt over empty chamber and the cocking device in fire position - much as I would a standard CRF action

even with the R8 I cannot bring myself to carry a rifle with a round up the spout

I’m the same with my R8. I just can’t bring myself to do it.
When hunting I’m an empty chamber person no matter what the action type. I’ve probably missed a few opportunities at game because of it. But who cares.

 

[503]

Muzzle control is the only safety I trust- I can tell if you are pointing a weapon at me or not. As far as I'm concerned, the only purpose of a safety (decockers like a Blaser or an actual firing pin blocking design aside) is to keep the weapon from firing if the trigger gets caught on brush or some such (which is why I've never understood the point of a safety in the trigger such as on a Glock). If it fires, muzzle control should ensure no harm comes of it but it will spoil the hunting for a while.

african carry is a vestige of a different era and makes perfect sense in the context of a gun bearer. He walks in front of you with the rifle already pointed in the generally right direction. It is a fast way to get into action when someone else is carrying the rifle for you. Unfortunately, it is still practiced by people who have long since forgotten why it was done that way in the first place. It is a slow way to get into action if you are carrying your own rifle. But it looks cool.

The glock trigger safety is a drop safety. If the pistol is dropped it stops the trigger from going rearward. The striker sping on a glock is at rest when a round is chambered. Pressing the trigger loads the spring them releases it. Thats why glocks are perfectly safe to carry with a chambered round.

Cheers

503

 

[Rubberhead]

Never trust a safety...always use the safety.

Don't get me started on the African hunting videos. I'd bet 80% of them have some point where a client's rifle is pointed directly at the PH in front of him. In some cases, it happens a lot. I've always wondered if the PH ever sees these videos.

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

Muzzle control is the only safety I trust- I can tell if you are pointing a weapon at me or not. As far as I'm concerned, the only purpose of a safety (decockers like a Blaser or an actual firing pin blocking design aside) is to keep the weapon from firing if the trigger gets caught on brush or some such (which is why I've never understood the point of a safety in the trigger such as on a Glock). If it fires, muzzle control should ensure no harm comes of it but it will spoil the hunting for a while.

african carry is a vestige of a different era and makes perfect sense in the context of a gun bearer. He walks in front of you with the rifle already pointed in the generally right direction. It is a fast way to get into action when someone else is carrying the rifle for you. Unfortunately, it is still practiced by people who have long since forgotten why it was done that way in the first place. It is a slow way to get into action if you are carrying your own rifle. But it looks cool.

I could not agree with you more. In my long life I have had 3 ADs. #1. Dakota rifle upon releasing M-70 style safety rifle discharged. #2. I could not believe what happened and tried it again, same result. #3 carrying a pre 64 M70 in 1/2 safety mode, heavy bush African safety somehow was released and 2.5lb. Trigger depressed by branch. Fortunately muzzle pointed in safe direction. Note. Tracker not happy!

 

[Nevada Mike]

I could not agree with you more. In my long life I have had 3 ADs. #1. Dakota rifle upon releasing M-70 style safety rifle discharged. #2. I could not believe what happened and tried it again, same result. #3 carrying a pre 64 M70 in 1/2 safety mode, heavy bush African safety somehow was released and 2.5lb. Trigger depressed by branch. Fortunately muzzle pointed in safe direction. Note. Tracker not happy!

Yep. I've had the same experience - not with my Dakota 76, but with a Model 70. I think the adjustable trigger is at fault and should be replaced with a Timney or similar.

 

[IvW]

I caught this Double Rifle safety demonstration by a PH in a recent video uploaded to AH.



View attachment 337415

Totally NUTS!!!!!

 

[Flewis]

Totally NUTS!!!!!

Or maybe lack of total nuts soon.

 

[BeeMaa]

Also if the bolt handle comes down a small amount it may be able to fire. For you r8 guys, is the fireing pin freefloating?

I'm not sure what you mean. I've attached a video of a Blaser R8 bolt disassembly. Around the 4:15 the firing pin is removed, and it goes back in at 6:13. What do you think?

 

[BourbonTrail]

I'm not sure what you mean. I've attached a video of a Blaser R8 bolt disassembly. Around the 4:15 the firing pin is removed, and it goes back in at 6:13. What do you think?

Doesn’t look free floating (there appears to be a a retention spring). Free floating is like in an SKS, no springs, just longitudinal slop.

 

[bowjijohn]

Don’t know whether it is or not

Don’t actually know what ‘free floating’ means in this context

What I do know is …

if I ever tried to take that thing apart, I’d end up with no rifle and a meaningless bag of bits!

I don’t think I’ve seen anything as scary in my life !!!

 

[BeeMaa]

Don’t know whether it is or not

Don’t actually know what ‘free floating’ means in this context

What I do know is …

if I ever tried to take that thing apart, I’d end up with no rifle and a meaningless bag of bits!

I don’t think I’ve seen anything as scary in my life !!!

I was watching this come apart and thinking the very same thing...LOL. I have my chosen profession and gunsmithing isn't it.

 

[Flewis]

Don’t know whether it is or not

Don’t actually know what ‘free floating’ means in this context

What I do know is …

if I ever tried to take that thing apart, I’d end up with no rifle and a meaningless bag of bits!

I don’t think I’ve seen anything as scary in my life !!!

Can the firing pin move freely when decocked?

 

[BeeMaa]

Can the firing pin move freely when decocked?

No. It has a spring pushing it to the rear.

 

[VertigoBE]

I'll write this very humbly, and just try to describe some recent observations.

On a recent DG hunt, my first one, I had brought my .416 Rigby bolt-action, with its sling. Intending the rifle to hang from one of my shoulders at all times. The PH's instructed that when we left the truck, I had better be loaded up, round in the chamber and safety on. No more noise, fiddling around trying to chamber, or other things to go wrong. Just be ready to take a shot.

When the tracking of the DG was happening, while stooping forward, moving around brush, climbing up rocks, avoiding branches from all sides, I went out of my way to keep the rifle from pointing to anyone. Having the rifle hanging on my shoulder was a true PITA, as I (or the sling, or the rifle barrel or...) got caught in too much thorns, shrubs, branches and what have you. So usually when the vegetation was too thick I would rather keep the rifle in my hands, so I could move it up and down, from vertical to horizontal, all the while snaking through the brush, I did all I could to keep the barrel from pointing to someone, but was failing often (and cursing myself for it), this happened especially when the people in front were not going in a straight line, while I was trying to avoid brush. So when one moment there was no one in front of my barrel, suddenly someone had walked in front of it.

Both Zim PH's, one carrying a 458WM and the other a 500 Jeffery, were fully loaded, round in the chamber, safety, without a sling. Meaning they were using the African-carry. I cannot remember the number of times I was pointed a barrel at. (nor the number of times I pointed a barrel at someone). We all did our best, this could be easily seen through how we behaved, to consciously try to avoid it happening, but happen it did nonetheless.

Carrying a heavy .416 rifle in your hands through bush, get's heavy after a while, especially while concentrating on not making a sound, not getting caught in thorns etc. So I tried the African-carry style. (I even explicitly asked the PH if he would be comfortable with me doing so. Fully loaded, round in the chamber, safety on, african carry. This was after a few days of having hunted together, and he nodded his okay). Trying this way of carrying, was a big relief through brush. Suddenly I could be much more nimble moving through the thorns, I was less getting stuck. I still made it a mental point to keep that barrel pointed away at all times from anyone else. But still failing sometimes. As soon as we came on more open terrain, back went the rifle on the shoulder strap. (Over the entire safari, this was its location 90% of the time, when away from the cruiser).

All through the safari, whether hanging from my shoulder, or in the African carry, I would be checking the safety being back still, touching it to make sure, every few 100 steps.

Now to contrast, someone very close to me, when hunting in Belgium, or once in Africa, has an awful sense for safety around firearms. He knows better than everyone. He'll unload a bolt action, with the barrel firmly pointed at someone's chest. He'll be walking around, or moving about with a firearm, loaded, round in the chamber, safety off, pointing it everywhere (including his own grandson's...). On top of that he does not have the nimblest fingers, when he reaches for the pistol grip, he tends to immediately put a finger on the trigger. Once in Belgium, once in Africa he has had an ND because of this. The only reason no one got hurt, is because he was lucky he had the barrel pointed somewhere where nothing serious could happen. (not because he consciously had the barrel pointed somewhere safe, one round went straight into the air, while he was crawling through a field, with a guide next to him)

This long story to say that I am by nature a very punctual, precise and safety conscious guy. Always minding where my barrel is pointed at, using my safety at every turn. If not necessary to be loaded, I unload. etc. Even though I fail (often) at it (or in the case of the African carry recently, going against what I would prefer, but was dictated by the circumstances), I am very aware of what I am doing. In contrast, this other person, for whom safety is something for other people to worry about, as he knows best.

I would much rather be with those two PH's, african carry, fully loaded, safety on, all year long, and I would (now) trust myself with it as well, than spending one day hunting with someone, who is not safety conscious at all. Because for the latter, even if there shouldn't be a round in the chamber, even if the safety ought to be on, even if the gun or rifle should be broken open, there will be moments that they do not pay attention. Because it is their nature not to pay much attention to this.

So, I agree with the camp that the best safety is between one's ears. The mechanical safeties are just bonuses. What I wanted to make clear, is that I am less against african carry than I was before, if it is the right safety conscious people doing it. But it is definitely not for everyone. In fact, I still would not recommend it.

 

[SFRanger7GP]

I follow the PH's instructions and load up when told. Every PH I have hunted with has told me to load up when we get off the truck. I always demonstrate rifle loaded and safety on. After that, it is all about muzzle control/awareness. It's really not that hard if practiced until it becomes a subconscious habit.

The only sure safety is muzzle control/awareness and keeping your finger off the trigger. Many YouTube hunting and shooting videos are great training tools for "how not to be safe".

Safe hunting.

 

[Red Leg]

If I am hunting dangerous game, there is a round in the chamber when I leave the truck. Period. If a PH were to forbid that, we would have a quick discussion, and were he still adamant, we would head back to camp. That said, I have never hunted with any PH that expected me to approach DG without a round in the chamber. Indeed, in the Caprivi my young PH asked me to please chamber a round for our boat ride to the area we would hunt. As he put it, we weren't going down from a hippo with an unfired rifle. I have also never had a PH that expected me to hunt PG without a round in the chamber. I would do it (if not in a DG area), but I wouldn't like it.

DG or PG (or anywhere in NA, SA, or Europe), bolt action or double, I hunt with a sling. I carry it muzzle down from the left shoulder (I am right handed). The barrel is in total control, it catches far less brush than a rifle in my hands in any position, and is instantly available - even automatically slipping into a hasty sling if the situation warrants.

This is at @spike.t Mike's lovely place in Zambia. @PeteG is patiently trying to get us into position for a waterbuck, and we are just about to be surprised by a great old warthog. The rifle is a .275 Rigby and the warthog would still be running around Zambia had I tried to chamber a round before firing.

The African carry - particularly by a client who never uses it at home or anywhere else is an accident waiting to happen. Most of us who travel to Africa have spent a lifetime using slings. Doing away with one - particularly with a rifle significantly heavier than our deer or elk rifle - doesn't seem to pass the common sense test to me.

A de-cocked rifle, whether Blaser or K-gun can not fire. That said, like every other rifle, it should be treated like a loaded firearm.