How safe are safteys?

[Gsxrmike]

Never put absolute trust in any safety. Years ago I was practicing cycling a Model 70 I was planning to take to Africa. I was at home using snap caps.
I flipped off the three position safety and I heard the firing pin drop. Scariest snap I ever heard. I tried it numerous times and about once out of every 6 tries it would “fire”. I took it to a gunsmith to get the safety replaced. Always make sure the gun is pointed in a safe direction when you disengage a safety.

 

[CBH Australia]

I caught this Double Rifle safety demonstration by a PH in a recent video uploaded to AH.



View attachment 337415

 

[Opposite Pole]

This is why I really like the Blaser and Krieghoff systems of decocking.
Not sure if there are other companies making a similar system on a double rifle.
Probably why the Blaser S2 and K-double guns command the price they do as well.

What is interesting is that there are several Kiplauff rifles available with a similar system.
They are available from Merkel (K5), Haenel (Jaeger 9) and I'm sure a few others.
Wonder why they don't offer this on a double.

Some other break action single shots with decocker are Krieghoff Hubertus, Blaser K95, and all of the gorgeous Johann Fanzoj ones. I’m sure there are more. The design is beginning to be used by other manufacturers too, Steyr uses it for bolt action now as well.

I can’t bring myself to trust a safety. It’s a mechanical feature and mechanisms fail sometimes. I have witnessed a gun go off when the safety was being switched off with a finger well outside the trigger guard. It was at the range with the rifle resting on a sand bag and pointing towards the targets. Other safety rules were followed and no one was hurt. Except the rifle owner that is, he got absolutely terrified. I mean he was unable to shoot anymore that day his hands were shaking so much. So shocking was the experience to him he now only chambers a round when he’s about to fire and preaches to everyone to do the same. Granted we do not deal with DG here.

I carry my O/U shotgun broken and slam it shut when about to fire. I have missed a pheasant once because of it. I think it’s a worthwhile trade off knowing I won’t hurt someone.

Once the primer ignites things cannot be stopped. As mentioned before in this thread and number of others, the real safety is in between the shooter’s ears.

 

[BeeMaa]

Some other break action single shots with decocker are Krieghoff Hubertus, Blaser K95, and all of the gorgeous Johann Fanzoj ones. I’m sure there are more. The design is beginning to be used by other manufacturers too, Steyr uses it for bolt action now as well.

I can’t bring myself to trust a safety. It’s a mechanical feature and mechanisms fail sometimes. I have witnessed a gun go off when the safety was being switched off with a finger well outside the trigger guard. It was at the range with the rifle resting on a sand bag and pointing towards the targets. Other safety rules were followed and no one was hurt. Except the rifle owner that is, he got absolutely terrified. I mean he was unable to shoot anymore that day his hands were shaking so much. So shocking was the experience to him he now only chambers a round when he’s about to fire and preaches to everyone to do the same. Granted we do not deal with DG here.

I carry my O/U shotgun broken and slam it shut when about to fire. I have missed a pheasant once because of it. I think it’s a worthwhile trade off knowing I won’t hurt someone.

Once the primer ignites things cannot be stopped. As mentioned before in this thread and number of others, the real safety is in between the shooter’s ears.

I knew about the Blaser K95 and Krieghoff Hubertus.
Only reason I left them out is the OP said "all makes except Keighoff and Blaser..."
Been lusting after a K95 for quite a while.

I understand that rifles are mechanical and mechanical parts do fail.
However when uncocking the Blaser rifle, you can feel the spring decompress.
I feel confident carrying the rifle with the chamber loaded and decocked.

 

[bruce moulds]

there seem to be different safety rules by some in some parts of Africa.
pictures abound of guys standing with the butt on the ground and 1 or 2 hands on the muzzle(s).
pictures and videos of muzzles swinging or pointing at people with no apparent concern by either party.
this includes innocent trackers!
what other workplace would allow such disregard for worker safety?
a lot of the unawareness of muzzle pointing equates to the over the shoulder muzzle forward carry.
if you are the guy in front, not so much an issue.
when a gun does off, it is a fraction of a second thing, and the result can be awfully permanent, even if it does not result in death.
you cannot un do it.
the pictures we see of such transgressions of basic safety seem to reinforce in some minds that safety does not REALLY matter.
being safe is a responsibility that goes with firearms handling, and does not detract from the experience in any way.
there is no room in this job for playing with yourself.
most responsible shooters avoid being with those who are not, and there is no 1/2 way in safety.
safety is the crux of the matter, but this comes from respect for others in many ways.
bruce.

 

[Bearbait1]

I thought it was just customary to point your rifle at others while hunting in Africa. Watching African hunting shows they don’t go 5 minutes without someone pointing their rifle at someone else.

 

[Bearbait1]

As a teenager I was hunting quail with a sxs 20ga and after shooting and reloading I closed the action and 1 barrel fired. My dad was sure I must have hit the trigger so he tried it and the same thing happened. One of the firing pins was stuck in the fire position so it would automatically fire when the action was closed.

 

[Opposite Pole]

I understand that rifles are mechanical and mechanical parts do fail.
However when uncocking the Blaser rifle, you can feel the spring decompress.
I feel confident carrying the rifle with the chamber loaded and decocked.

Yes but the Blaser design is not a safety but a decocker. I typically carry my R8 with a round chambered as I do my Krieghoff double. Both are safe as they are not cocked. I still follow usual safety rules and avoid pointing the gun at anyone. The safety of my other firearms however, I do not trust. This is just my opinion on the matter. Perhaps this is all in my head but even with handguns I comfortably carry my P229 round chambered and hammer down, but couldn’t bring myself to carry a G19 with a chambered round and ended up selling it.

Been lusting after a K95 for quite a while.

Good to know it’s not just me ;-]

 

[IvW]

I thought it was just customary to point your rifle at others while hunting in Africa. Watching African hunting shows they don’t go 5 minutes without someone pointing their rifle at someone else.

Not with me they wont...loaded or not...

 

[Nhoro]

I caught this Double Rifle safety demonstration by a PH in a recent video uploaded to AH.

Do you think his nuts will regulate at 50 m with that double ?

 

[discap]

Hmmm surprised I am the first one to address this but here goes. I don't trust safeties on most guns, but there are exceptions. Here is a gunsmith perspective

The vast majority of safeties are simply devices that keep the trigger from being pulled. Included in this list are most (but not all) boxlock rifles and shotguns, most bolt action rifles and the occasional sidelock shotgun.

Most sidelock shotguns and rifles have not only the trigger blocking mechanism but also a hammer blocking mechanism often called an "intercepting sear". On a typical SxS the "safety" that you work with your thumb simply slides a block over the trigger to prevent an accidental pull. Internally there is a "hammer block" that prevents the hammer from hitting the firing pin unless the trigger is pulled simultaneously. Always an exception. I have two FAMARS Castore sidelock hammer guns and neither has the "intercepting sear". I also have a very high grade Francotte sideplated boxlock that has intercepting sears.

The only thing that keeps the hammer from falling on any gun is the contact between the sear and the hammer. This contact point is no thicker than you thumbnails. So just imagine that your nails are pressing the edges against each other, you move one and it loses contact and bang. If you drop the gun there is nothing (on most guns) to keep the sear from disengaging and allowing the hammer to fall.

So for me a trigger block is only slightly more effective than the trigger guard. An intercepting sear is a real safety device.

Still carry my guns open until needed. Many don't have a "thumb safety". I shoot mostly damascus hammer guns.

Bill

 

[IvW]

onl

 

[IvW]

Only real safety devise is between your ears......
You point any firearm loaded unloaded on safe irrespective of what safety it is you will have it from my side paying client or not.....

 

[discap]

Amen

 

[tarawa]

I like the way my hammer guns work. Rebounding hanmmers. I always carry them un-cocked. The hammers can’t drop unless the triggers are pulled. I still follow all the safety rules.

 

[mark-hunter]

Having in mind, to carry a double rifle break open, as @Red Leg has mentioned, I have a question for carrying a bolt action.
Has anybody tried, used, practised or suggested as PH (with focus on african safari) to ask the client to have a round chambered, but bolt handle in upper postion, and bolt actually being unlocked - making it impossible to fire accidental shot, even with faulty safety.

In this case to make rifle ready to fire, it will require only turning the bolt down?

I know for a case when a hunter has installed low scope on mauser 98 rifle, with wing safety on the bolt.
This safety can not be operated due to scope position, so he was suggested (by gunsmith) just to carry with unlocked bolt, as "it will be even more safe", then to rely on trigger type of safety.

In another case, same type of rifle, my friend has just installed trigger with trigger safety, ignoring the wing safety, and rendering it out of use. But in the same time, relaying on functional trigger safety. (which in my opinion is less safe then wing safety, or unlocked or open bolt)

 

[bowjijohn]

I knew about the Blaser K95 and Krieghoff Hubertus.

Only reason I left them out is the OP said "all makes except Keighoff and Blaser..."
Been lusting after a K95 for quite a while.

I understand that rifles are mechanical and mechanical parts do fail.
However when uncocking the Blaser rifle, you can feel the spring decompress.
I feel confident carrying the rifle with the chamber loaded and decocked.

I was running “charge box” drills this week with some clients.

I usually run these drills with Mauser 98 action rifles

For the first time we ran the drills with an R8 in .22lr - backstops were not suitable for magnum calibre

we still had the rifle with closed bolt over empty chamber and the cocking device in fire position - much as I would a standard CRF action

even with the R8 I cannot bring myself to carry a rifle with a round up the spout

 

[BeeMaa]

I knew about the Blaser K95 and Krieghoff Hubertus.

I was running “charge box” drills this week with some clients.

I usually run these drills with Mauser 98 action rifles

For the first time we ran the drills with an R8 in .22lr - backstops were not suitable for magnum calibre

we still had the rifle with closed bolt over empty chamber and the cocking device in fire position - much as I would a standard CRF action

even with the R8 I cannot bring myself to carry a rifle with a round up the spout

Everyone has a preference and it’s completely understandable that you would prefer what you are most comfortable with.

I would say that whenever handling a firearm, there are inherent risks. What one determines an “acceptable level” of risk is also a very personal decision. However, there have been technologically advancements to reduce the risk. There was a time when there was no “safety” on a rifle at all.

Nothing is fool proof. Common sense still applies. Although it seems to much less common in recent years. We are handling firearms…act accordingly.

 

[Bert the Turtle]

Muzzle control is the only safety I trust- I can tell if you are pointing a weapon at me or not. As far as I'm concerned, the only purpose of a safety (decockers like a Blaser or an actual firing pin blocking design aside) is to keep the weapon from firing if the trigger gets caught on brush or some such (which is why I've never understood the point of a safety in the trigger such as on a Glock). If it fires, muzzle control should ensure no harm comes of it but it will spoil the hunting for a while.

african carry is a vestige of a different era and makes perfect sense in the context of a gun bearer. He walks in front of you with the rifle already pointed in the generally right direction. It is a fast way to get into action when someone else is carrying the rifle for you. Unfortunately, it is still practiced by people who have long since forgotten why it was done that way in the first place. It is a slow way to get into action if you are carrying your own rifle. But it looks cool.

 

[Nevada Mike]

This is an older post, but I would like to add a couple of comments...

On double guns, the over-hanging, intercepting sear is ALMOST fool proof. It acts as a 'back up' safety and protects against accidental discharges caused by jarring the sear out of the bent. But if there is any pressure on the trigger it does nothing to prevent a discharge. A stumble, unsafe muzzle direction when taking a shot... still can cause grievous damage.

On bolt guns equipped with a Mauser or Model 70 type safety the safety (in the rear position) blocks BOTH the trigger and the striker, as well as the bolt. The event posted earlier in this thread - where a Model 70 discharged on RELEASE of the safety was a problem with the TRIGGER, not the safety, which was doing it's job until released. I have seen this problem on Model 70s before and it stems from either a faulty adjustable trigger or from an ambitious owner/gun tinkerer fooling with the engagement adjustment. A replacement trigger - Timney or similar - along with correction of sear engagement is the solution.

Carrying a bolt gun with the bolt handle up is liable to allow the bolt to slide open and possibly eject a round or allow dirt or debris to enter the action. Not a good idea, IMO.

Most gun 'accidents' are the fault of careless action of one type or another. But mechanical failures can happen as well. All rifles should be tuned for reliability, which includes proper function of safety mechanisms - before taking them afield.

My dad was an NRA safety and marksmanship instructor. If he ever caught me pointing a gun in an unsafe direction or incorrectly handling one - I was denied all use of firearms for a time dictated by the seriousness of the infraction. For a boy in the country who loved to hike, hunt, and shoot this was real punishment.