How long is "too long"

[rookhawk]

Very interesting thread this is. I have two questions:

1. Why should rifles have a 1” shorter LOP than shotguns?

2. Is this rule about rifles being shorter LOP than shotguns equally pertinent for double rifles as for bolt actions?

Thanks!

1.) Because proper shooting position for a shotgun is shoulders over your feet, leaned forward, most of the weight on the balls of your feet, with the right heel (if right handed) off the ground enough that you can put a spent shotgun hull under it. In this body-forward, weight forward, position like you're about to give someone a bear hug, your shoulder pocket deepens and requires a longer gun.

On the other hand, for rifle shooting, you have a more erect stance, your elbow on your right hand isn't near parallel to the ground, and your shoulder pocket isn't as deep. This is why your rifle stock is generally shorter than your shotgun stock.

2.) Generally yes. A rifle stock made for running game tends to be shorter because you're assuming a more shotgun like stance as you swing the gun at potential targets that could occur at several locations in front of you, whereas for an aimed rifle (Rather than pointed) you'll have the more erect shooting posture I reference above.

 

[VertigoBE]

1.) Because proper shooting position for a shotgun is shoulders over your feet, leaned forward, most of the weight on the balls of your feet, with the right heel (if right handed) off the ground enough that you can put a spent shotgun hull under it. In this body-forward, weight forward, position like you're about to give someone a bear hug, your shoulder pocket deepens and requires a longer gun.

On the other hand, for rifle shooting, you have a more erect stance, your elbow on your right hand isn't near parallel to the ground, and your shoulder pocket isn't as deep. This is why your rifle stock is generally shorter than your shotgun stock.

2.) Generally yes. A rifle stock made for running game tends to be shorter because you're assuming a more shotgun like stance as you swing the gun at potential targets that could occur at several locations in front of you, whereas for an aimed rifle (Rather than pointed) you'll have the more erect shooting posture I reference above.

Thank you @rookhawk.

Just to be sure, in point two, “a rifle for running game tends to be shorter” did you mean longer, if I follow the logic?

Then an additional question:

For big bore rifles, where you are supposed to take more of a bear hug stance, should they then also have a longer LOP than a typical small or medium bore rifle?

 

[rookhawk]

Thank you @rookhawk.

Just to be sure, in point two, “a rifle for running game tends to be shorter” did you mean longer, if I follow the logic?

Then an additional question:

For big bore rifles, where you are supposed to take more of a bear hug stance, should they then also have a longer LOP than a typical small or medium bore rifle?

Yes, typo. Running game = more like a shotgun = longer.

As an example of that, you do find English double rifles even in the black powder era that had 14.5" length of pull or 15" LOP to a steel butt plate. When I saw these keep popping up, I was wondering why I was seeing original stocked guns with long LOPs in an era of pygmies, circa 1895?

For your question on modern big bore doubles, I think its a personal preference, but I'm not aware of the finer points of modern double rifle gunfitting as bespoke modern DRs are a lot rarer than shotguns. I like a more erect posture with both feet on the ground so I don't fall from the push. At any rate, I've never really done extensive fitting on my double rifles beyond adjusting pad length, a subtle amount of cast or drop changes. For DRs, I deal with what I've acquired, trying to focus on fit of my eye to the optic or irons instantly rather than trying to get the overall LOP to approach my shotgun specs.

 

[Sideshow]

@rookhawk has nail it. Most people forget that using a shotgun and a rifle are two very different disciplines.
For bird hunting you’re basically trying to throw a ball to hit another flying ball in midair.
Rifle hunting on the other hand as I’m sure you all know is 95% of the time aimed and shot whilst you and your target isn’t moving. This is why having your shotgun fitted to you is so important!
I did read lop for a rifle somewhere, I’ll try to find it. But it was shorter than I thought.

 

[Justbryan]

I was measured for a custom gun stock at 14.25" LOP. I am 6'2" and 200 pounds. An extra .75" makes a lot of difference to me. I started restocking my bigger boar guns. I liked it so much better that a standard LOP that I restocked all my rifles to high grade walnut with 14.25" LOP.

 

[lionofluangwa]

I'm 5'11, 185 and have a 15 3/8ths LOP on shotguns and doubles. Don't ask me why, I guess I am half monkey. My go to for adding additional length is to use a slip on tourbon gun slip as the typical LOP for the S/S guns I like to shoot is around 14.5 LOP. I have not bought a custom fitted gun. I added permanent extra padding to a 28 gauge repo parker one time and it made the gun look weird to me afterwards. Since then, I just go with a slip on "fitted for the butt" of the gun I want to use it on.

 

[Tam Dl]

No offense to all the midgets here (which is almost all of you), but trying to describe the issues associated with being really tall seems to be about the same as trying to describe color to a person who's been blind since birth.

I'm 74 inches, and you are 5.5% taller than me. Weird piece is that in a room together you would be a giant and have huge additional status way out of proportion to whether you had 5% more money, or a 5% more eligible wife. I shoot standard length stocks, assuming my strong hand is not crowding my face. This because most people have rifle stocks that are too long. Still you would be about .7 inches longer than me.

You are correct that screws may have reduced shear strength compared to, say, nails. But because a lot of folks like to use their drill drivers these days, there are tons of engineered screws readily available. Sources would be:

Local big box ask about engineered screws. Drywall are very brittle, deck screws are better. True engineered screws will be sold for joist hangers, ledger boards, and they may just be sold for framing.

Aircraft Spruce will carry screws for aircraft, and local marine stores will sell screws for boats.

Since your main issue is shear, you could use regular wood screws, but install pipes in the original screw holes. Maybe 1/2" into the stock and also penetrating the pad at the other end, so that your shear loads will ride on the tubes, while the screws just pass through and into the wood. I would be confident in deck screws if handled like that, though getting rated screws would probably be worth it. A good tube would be from an archery shop where a lot of carbon and aluminum shafts are 5/16". Carbon will be so marked, and Aluminum will be in the 20XX range. With 2020, 2018, and 2016 being reasonably tough. These days finding carbon shafts is much easier. Go to a hunting shop as you want tough shafts, They will be trimming most shafts a few inches, so it should be free, tell them you want pieces off the heaviest arrows available (in 5/16"), which would be 70# and up. Though a 50# bow arrow is still pretty strong.

Another source of strong screws would be cap, or other machine screws. Ideally to seat these you will need to tap the holes.

 

[CoElkHunter]

For my light-recoiling rifles like my 6.5x55 and my 280AI, not a big deal. But my 45-70, 9.3x62, and 404J are a little stiff in the recoil department, especially when firing from a bench. I'm told that a proper LOP will take a bit of starch out of the recoil.

The real issue with the larger bores is load development. It's a challenge to shoot any of them more than about 10 or 12 times during a range session. I've got a PAST pad on order, that should help some.

Yes, definitely use the PAST on the range when shooting the big stuff. Your shoulder will thank you for it.

 

[PCC600]

I am 5 foot 10 inches . On heavy rifles I use 14.5 inch stocks and never less than 14.25 inches. These dimensions work well for me but I am hunting mainly in northern Australia so only in lightweight clothing .

 

[AZDAVE]

Being 5 10 and a long neck and almost able to scratch my knee cap standing up I have done most every method of adjusting the LOP. Have been fit in the English style for shotguns (15 1/2) and fitted for double rifles by VC. (15) I have found that bolt guns feel best for me at 14 3/4-15.

The best method I have found is fitting threaded inserts to the stock and use machine screws.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Sounds pretty complicated? I just put a large 1" Limbsaver slip on recoil pad over the existing factory pad on my CZ 550s and it works well. I did the same with my Browning A Bolt .338. They stay on pretty well.

I very much disagree with this advice! Limbsaver slip-on recoil pads are too soft. A heavy recoil rifle will hammer the middle finger with back of trigger guard. Also, the pads don't stay put. The sidewalls are too soft and the pads move sideways on the stock.

I used Pachmayer Decelerator slip-on for years on my bird hunting and range shotguns. Much firmer and they don't slip around on the buttstock. The only drawback to them is their "easy on" design with cutaway on sidewalls which is also easy off. I have lost at least four over the years hunting pheasants. They now make a cheaper model with conventional sidewalls. I picked one up this year and really like it. Same recoil absorbing effectiveness as Decelerator but no cutaway on sidewalls. Also doesn't have the smooth hard rubber tip at top corner of the pad. That is nice for mounting the gun quickly and not getting caught in clothing, but also good at letting my gun slip and fall over when I set it upright on the floor against a corner or wall. I think their new plain Jane slip-on is called "Renegade"?

Personally, I would go with a slip-on rather than adding an inch of wood. Stick a block of unmatched wood on the end of the stock and you ruined the value ... a lot!

A Gracey adjustable recoil pad is also something to consider. Commonly found on expensive trap guns but I see no reason why one wouldn't work on a safari rifle.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I have always been perplexed by the long length of pull conversation. I have a skeet shooting background and a degree in gunsmithing from the Colorado School of Trades. I took classes on fitting shotguns and would never recommend a length of pull of longer than 14.5 for a shotgun for an individual shorter than 6'1. I have an friend that is a lanky 6'8 that built a custom k80 and had a stock made and professionally fitted. His length of pull is 15". As a rule of thumb rifle stocks should a little shorter than shotgun stocks. If you are sitting anywhere from 5'10 to 6' I would not recommend a length of pull longer than 13.75" for a rifle.

Other factors besides height come into play when selecting proper LOP: long neck, thin (or thick) shoulders, stooped stature, long arms.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Good idea. I think I'll do that too.

Don't. Buy a Pachmayer slip-on instead. They stay put without tape. Limbsaver is crap.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

1.) Because proper shooting position for a shotgun is shoulders over your feet, leaned forward, most of the weight on the balls of your feet, with the right heel (if right handed) off the ground enough that you can put a spent shotgun hull under it. In this body-forward, weight forward, position like you're about to give someone a bear hug, your shoulder pocket deepens and requires a longer gun.

On the other hand, for rifle shooting, you have a more erect stance, your elbow on your right hand isn't near parallel to the ground, and your shoulder pocket isn't as deep. This is why your rifle stock is generally shorter than your shotgun stock.

2.) Generally yes. A rifle stock made for running game tends to be shorter because you're assuming a more shotgun like stance as you swing the gun at potential targets that could occur at several locations in front of you, whereas for an aimed rifle (Rather than pointed) you'll have the more erect shooting posture I reference above.

Shooting off sticks one rarely if ever assumes an erect position. I think a field rifle should approximate very closely the fit of a field shotgun (= same LOP).

 

[rookhawk]

If this topic is of further interest to the forum, I find that discussions about stance and foot work are more informative than the books on gun fitting alone. One leads to logical conclusions about the other. Particularly, the correlations between shotguns and running game rifles or stalking rifles.

The best book ever written on wingshooting in my opinion, and definitely the best descriptions of footwork is: Robert Churchill's Game Shooting. It's been reprinted nearly a dozen times and is a must-have for your library. Bonus in that book is if you learn instinctive or "Churchill method" principles, you'll be far better prepared to stop a charge and save your life with a rifle than with any of the other shotgun shooting methods that don't adapt nearly as well to rifles hunting or snap shooting.

Unfortunately, I'm not aware of any double rifle or running game rifle instructional book that has documented footwork in a way that Churchill did for scatterguns. Adapting his reasoning to rifle shooting is trial, error, and then practice.

If you want to build upon that knowledge, Michael Yardley's Gunfitting is a good reference as well.

​

 

[bowjijohn]

I’m about 6 ft shorter than you

I’m afraid I can’t help

 

[MS 9x56]

I am a long armed 5’11” and my LOP is 14.25. Hard to find any American rifle with that LOP but the CZ, MS, and Mauser 98 all have 14.25 LOP. I know that on average Europeans are not any taller than Americans. Why the decrepancy?

 

[Ontario Hunter]

If this topic is of further interest to the forum, I find that discussions about stance and foot work are more informative than the books on gun fitting alone. One leads to logical conclusions about the other. Particularly, the correlations between shotguns and running game rifles or stalking rifles.

The best book ever written on wingshooting in my opinion, and definitely the best descriptions of footwork is: Robert Churchill's Game Shooting. It's been reprinted nearly a dozen times and is a must-have for your library. Bonus in that book is if you learn instinctive or "Churchill method" principles, you'll be far better prepared to stop a charge and save your life with a rifle than with any of the other shotgun shooting methods that don't adapt nearly as well to rifles hunting or snap shooting.

Unfortunately, I'm not aware of any double rifle or running game rifle instructional book that has documented footwork in a way that Churchill did for scatterguns. Adapting his reasoning to rifle shooting is trial, error, and then practice.

If you want to build upon that knowledge, Michael Yardley's Gunfitting is a good reference as well.

​

I never read anything by Robert Churchill, in fact I didn't know anything about him until this thread. His "method" is exactly what I preach to new shooters at the trap/skeet club. I don't see much in his quotable quotes about footwork. I expect that advice is custom fit to driven shoots, range targets, and shooting over pointing dogs, not shooting at game in rough country or off the butt in a layout blind or uplands over a flushing dog. Footwork in those situations is often ad hok. However, his emphasis on keeping the eye on the target not the gun is spot on.

Earlier this summer a young fella showed up at the club for the first time and for whatever reason walked over to the skeet range first. He had a horrible time. A pair of nine out of twenty-five. One of the competitive trap "pros" advised him to start learning over on that side. I begged him to stay: "Here's a box of my shells. Stay and let me give you one piece of advice that will make this fun for you." He agreed. "Okay. Shoot low gun just like me." He was aghast: "But you're good and I suck. I'll never have time to aim my gun." "Exactly! I was watching and both rounds you blew up the targets at station eight so I KNOW your gun fits you perfectly. You're ready. Just start low gun and you'll see." The trap honcho scoffed: "Don't listen to him. He doesn't compete in the States like me." I responded: "Those are my shells and if he wants to shoot them, he'll shoot them my way." The guy stepped up to station one, looked at me, lowered the gun to his belt, pulled the targets, and dusted all four, including the double. "Just lucky," whispered the trap wizard. Nope! He shot 20/25! From low gun he didn't have time to aim. He was forced to shoot instinctively.

 

[rookhawk]

I never read anything by Robert Churchill, in fact I didn't know anything about him until this thread. His "method" is exactly what I preach to new shooters at the trap/skeet club. I don't see much in his quotable quotes about footwork. I expect that advice is custom fit to driven shoots, range targets, and shooting over pointing dogs, not shooting at game in rough country or off the butt in a layout blind or uplands over a flushing dog. Footwork in those situations is often ad hok. However, his emphasis on keeping the eye on the target not the gun is spot on.

Earlier this summer a young fella showed up at the club for the first time and for whatever reason walked over to the skeet range first. He had a horrible time. A pair of nine out of twenty-five. One of the competitive trap "pros" advised him to start learning over on that side. I begged him to stay: "Here's a box of my shells. Stay and let me give you one piece of advice that will make this fun for you." He agreed. "Okay. Shoot low gun just like me." He was aghast: "But you're good and I suck. I'll never have time to aim my gun." "Exactly! I was watching and both rounds you blew up the targets at station eight so I KNOW your gun fits you perfectly. You're ready. Just start low gun and you'll see." The trap honcho scoffed: "Don't listen to him. He doesn't compete in the States like me." I responded: "Those are my shells and if he wants to shoot them, he'll shoot them my way." The guy stepped up to station one, looked at me, lowered the gun to his belt, pulled the targets, and dusted all four, including the double. "Just lucky," whispered the trap wizard. Nope! He shot 20/25! From low gun he didn't have time to aim. He was forced to shoot instinctively.

You are correct!

The footwork part is absolutely critical if your goal is to kill a lot of stuff. The clay pros resent it, because they know where the target is and they address the target. This foresight creates a weird, closed stance. It then leads to a high gun anticipation. Holding a gun high creates a focus on the bead rather than the target. Thus, to counter all this, they like butt-beak-bang and sustained lead shooting. It’s one bad idea after the next after the next….unless you want high scores in Pottery destruction.

Churchill, in addition to inventing instinctive shooting and the snap shot, emphasized footwork. His foot stance was to maximize gun control over the maximum amount of potential locations a bird could present, 270 degrees plus past vertical on high pheasant. He also believed that this stance in conjunction with a perfectly fit gun allowed you to shoot game without leading the target, if your body is in motion just move the gun to your shoulder and the target simultaneously and shoot the weapon the second the gun touches your face. The brain creates subconscious lead and your velocity of movement ensures you’re not shooting behind your target.

Everyone at the time says Robert Churchill was an idiot. They were wrong. Everyone at the time said you needed 32” barrels to win the world championship in Monaco so you could get a controllable swing and lead on the target…he arrived with his 25” barreled gun and won best in the world with his method.

His book has many pages of footwork pictures that look like footprints of doing the Waltz. It makes sense quickly and you figure out rapidly that its all about being ever-ready for a shot instantly, from any angle, without losing balance or control.

Shooting Churchill method will save someone’s life if they ever face a charge on dangerous game. Much of his instruction is relevant.

 

[MS 9x56]

Don't. Buy a Pachmayer slip-on instead. They stay put without tape. Limbsaver is crap.

I must respectfully disagree with your assessment of limb save recoil pads. I use them on my harsher recoil guns and they tame recoil admirably. I have not had one either jam my finger with trigger guard or set triggers. Have not had any movement side to side on any of my guns since mounted. To each his own but for me I will continue buying and using limb saver pads both slip on and mounted.