How long is "too long"

[rookhawk]

@sgt_zim I know a little bit about gun fitting and custom stocks in the English tradition. (the mature methodology built over the last 200 years)

Two things strike me immediately:

1.) I don't think your guns need to be as long as you think they do. If you had an expert gun fitter fit you for a shotgun, and you think the fitting was good, your rifle fitting is typically -1" less than your scatterguns. With the rifle measurements you're quoting, it implies you're roughly 6'8" tall, with 38" sleeves, and you weigh about 200lbs or so. I'm suspicious.

2.) Assuming your lengths desired are correct, there is no way you're going to get a functional gun by tacking on that much recoil pad and/or spacers to adjust length of pull without ruining sight picture. Unless you have monte carlo straight combs, any addition in length reduces your Drop at Comb and Drop at Heel. Or more specifically, DROP AT FACE which is a made up term for where your face aligns to the comb. The longer the gun stock, the more your face drops off the comb.

To summarize, radically lengthening length of pull generally makes guns unshootable because it alters drop and amplifies cast.

Bonus round topic, "How long of a recoil pad can you add without your weapon looking ridiculous and effecting value?". The answer is, a 1" silvers pad to the eye looks correct, a 1.5" pad looks wrong. NECG makes a 1-1/4" pad that has a slightly thicker spacer and slightly thicker orange face, tricking the eyes into thinking its a normal 1" pad and its not. The 1.5" fake silvers pads made by Galazan/CSMC look terrible, have no recoil absorption, cost $150-$300 to intstall, and MANY of them have voids in the rubber so you get to pay the installer double when they're forced to start over.

If you need more than 1-1/4" ever so slightly, the way to do it without looking ridiculous is to build up with a spacer, then a 1" pad, then cover the whole thing in calfskin or English pigskin, running a liner (boarder) on the pad. It confuses the eyes and makes the gun look okay. (but its expensive: $400-$600 for this kind of pad)

 

[Hogpatrol]

Instead of using wood screws to attach my R.A.D. unit, I use threaded inserts they provide which use machine screws to hold the buttplate to the stock. Drill, add epoxy to the insert, screw in flush and then use machine screws to attach the recoil pad.

\https://www.amazon.com/Z-Externally-Threaded-Stainless-Internal/dp/B002KWFRHM/ref=sr_1_9?crid=38QTOFPVR7XEU&keywords=10-32+wood+insert&qid=1699892593&s=industrial&sprefix=10-32+wood+inser,industrial,187&sr=1-9

 

[rookhawk]

P.S. - If you're trying to shim a stock with a spacer, never buy one. You go to an expert stock maker and they have bins of cut offs from a century of shotguns and rifles. You look through pieces for an hour until you find the piece that fits and has similar grain characteristics as the gun. A good fitter will even scratch the spacer with fine nicks similar to the grain so when the gun is finished again, it further conceals the spacer line.

 

[Nevada Mike]

For my light-recoiling rifles like my 6.5x55 and my 280AI, not a big deal. But my 45-70, 9.3x62, and 404J are a little stiff in the recoil department, especially when firing from a bench. I'm told that a proper LOP will take a bit of starch out of the recoil.

The real issue with the larger bores is load development. It's a challenge to shoot any of them more than about 10 or 12 times during a range session. I've got a PAST pad on order, that should help some.

I agree. When I ordered my 404J, both Reto Buehler and James Tucker took a lot of time with a try stocked rifle to get the right fit. The 404J recoil isn’t too bad, but I want some ‘buffer zone’ between my eyebrow and the scope ocular ring.

 

[shootist~]

Probably talk to a professional fitter. I've only had a few shotguns fitted, so grain of salt - but the method is to first afix an aluminum plate to the stock (reg length screws). A second , adjustable aluminum plate is attached to the fixed plate. Then comes the recoil pad.

My buddy who's tallish with long arms, ended up with 15" LOP. Mine are 14.5", as compared to ~14" on my rifles.

The aluminum plates on my pictured Beretta Sporting Clay's gas gun are each 1/4" thick.

 

[sgt_zim]

@sgt_zim I know a little bit about gun fitting and custom stocks in the English tradition. (the mature methodology built over the last 200 years)

Two things strike me immediately:

1.) I don't think your guns need to be as long as you think they do. If you had an expert gun fitter fit you for a shotgun, and you think the fitting was good, your rifle fitting is typically -1" less than your scatterguns. With the rifle measurements you're quoting, it implies you're roughly 6'8" tall, with 38" sleeves, and you weigh about 200lbs or so. I'm suspicious.

2.) Assuming your lengths desired are correct, there is no way you're going to get a functional gun by tacking on that much recoil pad and/or spacers to adjust length of pull without ruining sight picture. Unless you have monte carlo straight combs, any addition in length reduces your Drop at Comb and Drop at Heel. Or more specifically, DROP AT FACE which is a made up term for where your face aligns to the comb. The longer the gun stock, the more your face drops off the comb.

To summarize, radically lengthening length of pull generally makes guns unshootable because it alters drop and amplifies cast.

Bonus round topic, "How long of a recoil pad can you add without your weapon looking ridiculous and effecting value?". The answer is, a 1" silvers pad to the eye looks correct, a 1.5" pad looks wrong. NECG makes a 1-1/4" pad that has a slightly thicker spacer and slightly thicker orange face, tricking the eyes into thinking its a normal 1" pad and its not. The 1.5" fake silvers pads made by Galazan/CSMC look terrible, have no recoil absorption, cost $150-$300 to intstall, and MANY of them have voids in the rubber so you get to pay the installer double when they're forced to start over.

If you need more than 1-1/4" ever so slightly, the way to do it without looking ridiculous is to build up with a spacer, then a 1" pad, then cover the whole thing in calfskin or English pigskin, running a liner (boarder) on the pad. It confuses the eyes and makes the gun look okay. (but its expensive: $400-$600 for this kind of pad)

I'm 6'6" and 225#. The long arms were a great advantage in high school when I played basketball and baseball (not as freakish looking as Kevin McHale, but close), but not much of an advantage for anything else now that I'm quite a bit longer in the tooth than I was.

Scatterguns - I only have 1, a 12 GA BPS. The fit sucks, but I rarely bird hunt anymore, so not that big of a deal.

As far as drop, I have Bradley cheek rests for all my rifles. Not the greatest looking things in the world, being Kydex, but they do what I bought them for, which is to raise my pupil to the centerline of the scopes.

 

[BRICKBURN]

.....

At nearly double the length, I'm a little concerned over the extra torque that can be imparted via every day use (not the actual shooting part, just all the other stuff that goes along with transporting them and hunting with them). Am I being overly paranoid? Or is this potentially a thing? Is my only real option to spend a fortune on bespoke stocks? Add to THAT complication is that I am a lefty.

Being a smaller fella like you I have lengthened a few stocks so I don't feel like I am creeping a child's rim fire. I have used Ebony, Walnut or plastic and adjusted and shaped as required.

The attachment has been done with EPOXY and longer and larger gauge screws. 3.5 inch worked.
I have not dropped one to test the theory.

The thread insert idea looks like a great fix if the inserts were longer.

I hope the projects work out for you.

 

[Red Leg]

I'm 6'6" and 225#. The long arms were a great advantage in high school when I played basketball and baseball (not as freakish looking as Kevin McHale, but close), but not much of an advantage for anything else now that I'm quite a bit longer in the tooth than I was.

Scatterguns - I only have 1, a 12 GA BPS. The fit sucks, but I rarely bird hunt anymore, so not that big of a deal.

As far as drop, I have Bradley cheek rests for all my rifles. Not the greatest looking things in the world, being Kydex, but they do what I bought them for, which is to raise my pupil to the centerline of the scopes.

LOL. Well forget my previous input.

Cheek weld will be the challenge when lengthening a conventional rifle stock that much.

 

[sgt_zim]

LOL. Well forget my previous input.

Cheek weld will be the challenge when lengthening a conventional rifle stock that much.

These guys work pretty well. They come with several different length straps. I have cheek weld covered pretty well with these. The only SA bolt gun I have is a 308 Win. Long bolts mean I have to put those risers back about as far as I can get them.

I've tried other cheek riser systems, they all leave quite a bit to be desired in the "functional" department, these are the most useful/consistent ones I have tried.

 

[Tundra Tiger]

Honestly Zim, I clicked on it because I thought it was a shot distance post and wanted to see what people said.

 

[Kalthoff]

My current project is to get all my rifles to the correct LOP. Right now, they're all OEM, so 13.5 or 13.75". I need to lengthen them all to 14.75 or 15".

After having a shotgun fitted to me by a competent professional, I am replacing or modifying the stock on my other guns so they too will have the dimensions that are ideal for me.

It has improved my shooting quite a bit.

I have been satisfied with the "pachmayr old english" recoil pads. They are delivered oversize, glued on and sanded to shape. If the work is done by a competent craftsman, the result looks good on a pretty wooden stock.

 

[rookhawk]

These guys work pretty well. They come with several different length straps. I have cheek weld covered pretty well with these. The only SA bolt gun I have is a 308 Win. Long bolts mean I have to put those risers back about as far as I can get them.
View attachment 569204

I've tried other cheek riser systems, they all leave quite a bit to be desired in the "functional" department, these are the most useful/consistent ones I have tried.

That certainly gets the job done @sgt_zim . If you were in my country, I’d suggest we go on a shopping hunt to find you some mid-century guns with high combs. We could shave them down or bent the wrist a bit to get you more comb height if you’re going to extend LOP. You’re just a very tricky guy to gun fit, even harder if its not a wood stock we can manipulate.

For the readers: Sgt Zim‘s problem isn’t just his height and wingspan, he’s a thin fellow. The thinner you are (or the less barrel chested you are as the English gunfitters say), the longer your LOP and the more cast you need. Since Sgt Zim is a foot taller than an average man of a century ago, and he’s at least 50lbs lighter than a typical man of his height, it is hard to find him a vintage gun that will fit and it is hard for him to find a modern second hand gun that will fit as well!

One rifle I’d encourage you to seek out that you’d love: A Cogswell & Harrison built on a Mauser action. Many were made in 375HH and 404J, and some were made in 275HH, 300HH, 303, 30-06, and 318WR. Those guns were made 1940-1953 and they had factory 14-5/8” LOP And high combs. With extra low rings and straight tube scopes, you can get good gun fit at your stature without much work. A lot of them were sold to Parks departments of Africa so you may find them in your travels.

 

[AimSmall]

Sgt,

To your question about how long is too long, assuming you are considering a spacer between stock and recoil pad, the screws will be fine.

Others have addressed possible solutions. Of course, if you WANT a bespoke stock, you should get one!

 

[sgt_zim]

That certainly gets the job done @sgt_zim . If you were in my country, I’d suggest we go on a shopping hunt to find you some mid-century guns with high combs. We could shave them down or bent the wrist a bit to get you more comb height if you’re going to extend LOP. You’re just a very tricky guy to gun fit, even harder if its not a wood stock we can manipulate.

For the readers: Sgt Zim‘s problem isn’t just his height and wingspan, he’s a thin fellow. The thinner you are (or the less barrel chested you are as the English gunfitters say), the longer your LOP and the more cast you need. Since Sgt Zim is a foot taller than an average man of a century ago, and he’s at least 50lbs lighter than a typical man of his height, it is hard to find him a vintage gun that will fit and it is hard for him to find a modern second hand gun that will fit as well!

One rifle I’d encourage you to seek out that you’d love: A Cogswell & Harrison built on a Mauser action. Many were made in 375HH and 404J, and some were made in 275HH, 300HH, 303, 30-06, and 318WR. Those guns were made 1940-1953 and they had factory 14-5/8” LOP And high combs. With extra low rings and straight tube scopes, you can get good gun fit at your stature without much work. A lot of them were sold to Parks departments of Africa so you may find them in your travels.

If you think I'm a slender fellow now, should have known me in HS. I was 6'4" and 165 lbs when I graduated. In those days, I was so thin I had to run around the shower to get wet, and dodging rain drops wasn't even a challenge.

 

[ay2626]

Is it true that there are some regional preferences on the proper length of pull all else being equal? I thought that Europeans favored longer pull compared to Americans.

 

[sgt_zim]

Is it true that there are some regional preferences on the proper length of pull all else being equal? I thought that Europeans favored longer pull compared to Americans.

Good question. For me, "proper" means I can maintain a relatively neutral position when I lay my face down on the comb. That will of course vary by firearm and the physical state of the person shouldering the firearm.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

Get your minds out of the gutter.

My current project is to get all my rifles to the correct LOP. Right now, they're all OEM, so 13.5 or 13.75". I need to lengthen them all to 14.75 or 15".

Standard screw length to attach recoil pad to butt stock is roughly 2", and it looks as though I'll need to go to 3.5" or even 4" screws to get my rifles to an appropriate length. Screws are terrific at holding a static vertical load, but are brittle and don't do sheer well at all, if at all.

At nearly double the length, I'm a little concerned over the extra torque that can be imparted via every day use (not the actual shooting part, just all the other stuff that goes along with transporting them and hunting with them). Am I being overly paranoid? Or is this potentially a thing? Is my only real option to spend a fortune on bespoke stocks? Add to THAT complication is that I am a lefty.

My cousin has that problem. He's 6'6". He had gunsmith make stock extensions and added new recoil pads. It worked for him. Standard recoil pad screws work fine, and he can always put it back to standard LOP.

 

[Hogpatrol]

The thread insert idea looks like a great fix if the inserts were longer.

The inserts come in different lengths. IIRC, the ones I used were 1/2"long with an 8-32 internal thread.

 

[rookhawk]

Sgt,

To your question about how long is too long, assuming you are considering a spacer between stock and recoil pad, the screws will be fine.

Others have addressed possible solutions. Of course, if you WANT a bespoke stock, you should get one!

With a rifle and infinite money, you could get an infinitely long stock. However, you cannot mount an optic on an infinitely long stock with infinite money. With rifle stocks, you have to make concessions for practicality of installation.

Using ultra low rings, or a G&H mount, and using a straight tube EE scope that has a full 5" of eye relief, your options past about 15" to 15.25" length of pull are about non-existent.

However, a 15.25" rifle stock is equivelant to about a 16" shotgun stock, which suits people out to about 6'8" at 225lbs with 38" or sleeves and a western European skull/neck size and length.

When I was fitted for a shotgun at 225lbs, 6'10" tall, and 38" sleeves 15 years ago my english gun fitter said I needed a 17.25" stock. I said politely, thanks, but no thanks. I shoot a shorter stock than that ideal then, and I've also put 100lbs on which brings me to about 1 15.75" shotgun stock, about 15.25" bolt rifle stock, both of which are obtainable without having everything bespoke.

For perspective, off-the-rack mid-century rifles were 13-5/8" and shotguns were 14-3/8" length of pull. That was standard GI sized humans. As you can see from the thread going here, people have become bigger and for more than half the readers, those measurements just aren't going to cut it anymore.

 

[VertigoBE]

Very interesting thread this is. I have two questions:

1. Why should rifles have a 1” shorter LOP than shotguns?

2. Is this rule about rifles being shorter LOP than shotguns equally pertinent for double rifles as for bolt actions?

Thanks!