Hierarchy Of Double Rifles - Where does the Verney-Carron Fit In?

[ingwe500nitroexpress]

Interesting points. And obviously a very subjective topic. Again, I’ve owned and still own many of these rifles mentioned. I would never say a Blaser, Chapuis, or a Merkel would feel better in hand than the worst Heyms out there. And certainly not an 89b. Heavy? Yes. But they offer so many frame sizes that’s subjective as well. I’ve owned rising bites, and a few Westleys over the years , and none of them (even an inherited Purdey) feel anywhere as “magic” in hand as my Royal(s). The only 2 makers I’ve ever picked up “blindfolded” that felt magic, has been the Royals and the Purdeys. The Heym leagues ahead of certainly ANY Merkel or Chapuis. But that also brings up that bespoke doubles are often a fingerprint and some just feel better than others. Just my 2 cents though.

P.S. I’ve also seen Chapuis not want to go together after getting deep into the bush, and on that experience alone, on a first day of a 4 week trip, I vowed to not own a Chapuis haha. I had one in a really petite 450/400 that never gave me any issues but wasn’t hunted hard with, and the fit and finish left a LOT to be desired. It felt cheap.

 

[ingwe500nitroexpress]

Aren’t the Merkel doubles known as being some of the most durable and reliable? They cost a fraction of these British makes.

No

 

[AZDAVE]

@ingwe500nitroexpress I understand your comments. I do wish I was fortunate enough to get into a westley richards, purdey, H&H Royal class of double. Need to win the lottery.
Like you mentioned feel is subjective to each person. I have also seen problems with many of the doubles you mentioned. I have been fortunate to not have any of those problems. My chapuis's have been 9.3x74 and smaller. The fit and finish on a Heym is better than the chapuis and head and shoulders better than a Merkel. The VC's I have owned have been a 8x57R and 450/400 both shoot great and their fit and finish is on par with the heym. The heym I owned shot very well just didn't have the feel that was fight in my hands.

At this point I have settled on a Krieghoff (500/416), Chapuis (9.3x74), VC (8x57R), and a Simson (405 WIN, currently out being restocked) They all are regulated extremely well. I shoot 350-500 rounds a year in doubles to work on my ability to shoot a double well. So far they are all holding up well.

Now if someone wants me to field test and review one of the high end double I will be happy to help.

 

[Northern Shooter]

Well this thread has me thinking I bought the poor man’s double with my Merkel, oh well.

Here’s hoping I don’t have this documented trigger/sear issue with mine. I paid $15,000 CDN.

 

[AZDAVE]

@Northern Shooter If it shoots well and fits you just take it out and hunt with it and don't worry. Keep an eye out for the trigger problem, my understanding it occurred in a small number of doubles with a heat treat problem with the triggers. I have shot a few merkels but never owned one as they just didn't feel right in my hands.

 

[Beck]

Hello to all the learned and experienced. I pose a question to you, hoping to gain some insight into where a Verney-Carron Azur double rifle would fit into place on a list of desirable doubles.
I think I would like to leave out any reference to any type of vintage, bespoke, English or Continental rifle, as I am more focused on what is being produced today, or at least in the last 25 years or so.
Let's assume the calibre is the same for all (.450/.400 NE) and condition of each rifle is comparable - nearly new, to used, but well taken care of. I'm thinking about quality, fit and finish, balance, recoil mitigation, resale value, etc. How does the V.C. Azur compare to the:

Merkel 140
Kreighoff Classic Big Five
Sabatti Classic Double
Heym 88B or 89B
Chapuis X4 or Iphisi

I suppose the question boils down to whether or not a blue collar guy on a budget should even be looking at this double rifle, or should he be satisfied with his bolt gun? I don't believe in buying an inferior product, just because the price is good, I'd rather save longer and be happy.

Heym
Merkel
Krieghoff
Chapius
Sabatti

 

[ingwe500nitroexpress]

@ingwe500nitroexpress I understand your comments. I do wish I was fortunate enough to get into a westley richards, purdey, H&H Royal class of double. Need to win the lottery.
Like you mentioned feel is subjective to each person. I have also seen problems with many of the doubles you mentioned. I have been fortunate to not have any of those problems. My chapuis's have been 9.3x74 and smaller. The fit and finish on a Heym is better than the chapuis and head and shoulders better than a Merkel. The VC's I have owned have been a 8x57R and 450/400 both shoot great and their fit and finish is on par with the heym. The heym I owned shot very well just didn't have the feel that was fight in my hands.

At this point I have settled on a Krieghoff (500/416), Chapuis (9.3x74), VC (8x57R), and a Simson (405 WIN, currently out being restocked) They all are regulated extremely well. I shoot 350-500 rounds a year in doubles to work on my ability to shoot a double well. So far they are all holding up well.

Now if someone wants me to field test and review one of the high end double I will be happy to help.

Did you have an 88b or an 89b just out of curiosity. I would not have shopped Heym for my workhorse double if it was the 88b. The 89 is certainly not anywhere near as svelte as my English doubles, but they did a great job on it. Sadly the chapuis I’ve seen fail have all been 470s and upwards. The English guns I’ve seen have had issues in the non rimmed cartridges, but I think those issues would be magnified significantly more in something like a Chapuis. Merkel and Searcy are off the table for me. Seen some lovely VC and Thys rifles. This day and age I think I’d be hard put to find myself in the market for an entry level double and not focus on Krieghoff or Heym though. I don’t think I’d buy a Krieghoff as the safety system is another moving part that I’m not interested in. Most of my rifles are all larger bores and added safety measures aren’t welcome for me hahaha. Which is odd because I exclusively shoot k80 parcours for FITASC. I bought 3 of them in high grades . But they failed to sell me on a double rifle.

 

[ingwe500nitroexpress]

Well this thread has me thinking I bought the poor man’s double with my Merkel, oh well.

Here’s hoping I don’t have this documented trigger/sear issue with mine. I paid $15,000 CDN.

Ouch. Extractors or ejectors?

 

[Northern Shooter]

Ouch. Extractors or ejectors?

It’s a 160AE with ejectors.

 

[ingwe500nitroexpress]

It’s a 160AE with ejectors.

You took a bit of a beating for roughly 10k USD. Nice thing that is has the ejectors, and as long as you take care of it, and maybe get it serviced and tuned up a little bit before you’re chasing buffalo, you’ll be ok. In the future just hold out a little and maybe track down a Krieghoff or even a chapuis. I had 2 Merkels bought from an estate sale that had some English stuff as well (smoothbores though) and the 2 160s were gone in a week. I had plenty of other doubles and those Merkels just never feel or look good to me.

 

[ingwe500nitroexpress]

It’s a 160AE with ejectors.

Although the 160s are a heck of a lot nicer looking than those 140s haha.

 

[Northern Shooter]

The rifle was also new old stock from a retailer, not a used deal. It had been sitting in inventory since about 2012.

Not much of a market for doubles up here.

 

[kpoynter]

Heym
Merkel
Krieghoff
Chapius
Sabatti

You forgot the V/C lol which is the main gun he is considering…
Has to be 1 or 2 here (ok doesn’t have to be in your opinion maybe obviously)

 

[AZDAVE]

@ingwe500nitroexpress it was a 88 (470) and I also had a old 55 O/U in 7x65. I liked the 7x65 but is was to close to my VC 8x57 so I let it go. I will say that the Heym's are a very nice at the high end of entry doubles. Just wish that I like the feel of them better. I do love my Krieghoff. The cocker/decoker saftey is a different manual of arms to use it but I made friends with it and don't even think about it any more.
The older Chapuis's in the larger calibers all seem to work better than the newer ones. I have been hearing that since Beretta bought them that the QC isn't what it was. But I have no hands on experience with them. The 9.3's and smaller is where my experience with this brand is. I do like the look and feel of the Iphisi model but since it is a non rimmed cartridge I chose to pass on it but do know folks that have them that speak highly of them.

At this point I will use funds for more hunts vs rifles. What I have in my double smallest to largest cover all my hunting needs with a double. and bolt guns 22hornet to 500 Jeffery also fit the bill where a double isn't the best or acceptable platform.

Now if I have a windfall of funds I don't know about I would seriously look at at the Rigby Shikari or a nice used english double.