Has your PH ever sent you out without him?

[ArmyGrunt]

Well with a comment like that your off the speedgoat group hunt list. LOL

Crapo

 

[billc]

Now if you can say Toyota's are better you can get back on the list. LOL Don't make me hurt your feelings.

 

[K-man]

Says the cat with feathers sticking out of his mouth.


I have had Lessor Bustard and it was great. I have heard that Kori Bustard tastes great as well but don't know that personally.



The following is a Kori Bustard story from two of my fathers friends. The story is from the 1950's or 1960's:

Two friends went elephant hunting on the Ruaha River. One went upstream and the other down stream. Hunter One came back to camp to see Hunter Two cooking a Kori Bustard over the fire. Hunter One says you can't shoot them, they are protected. Hunter Two said this one wasn't!

I have a couple of stories like this one but will not be sharing them here... The statute of limitations isn't up yet on that, so.....

 

[Houlainol]

I guess I will touch on this since it is my topic. I will pass over the section of this subject that went off the rail to stupid town. Paying the day fee for the services of a PH and getting sent out with a tracker is bad business. Does the tracker get the PH's salary for the day? I seriously doubt it. So what am I paying for?

I am not really looking for people to agree with me and I just wanted to know how common this practice was.

 

[Houlainol]

Oh and I am a Dodge man when it comes to real pick up trucks i.e. 2500 and bigger.

 

[ArmyGrunt]

Now if you can say Toyota's are better you can get back on the list. LOL Don't make me hurt your feelings.

Well......Toyota is better than Datsun.....

 

[billc]

Well......Toyota is better than Datsun.....

Haha that is funny. Ever wonder why all the outfitters over in Africa use Toyota? It is so you can get back to camp each night with out needing to replace the motor or trans of a dodge. LOL

No the Ph should not just send you out with a tracker. We had it happen and that Ph was left go after it was known. Trackers have there job and the Ph his and both are needed to get the job done right.

 

[Michael Dean]

I understand that unseen problems can arise and that in life well thought plans can sometimes take a detour. But, at the end of the day, I like and expect to get what I've paid for. When you book a trip in south Africa, it's done with the premise and understanding that an attentive and seasoned PH will be guiding you throughout the trip. I will not pay for a PH that thinks its acceptable to spend time on a cell phone or stays behind in the truck while having the tracker guide you, when he should have his attention and focus on finding and analyzing game animals.

Before I pull the trigger I want my PH to give me a reasonable analysis as to the size of the animal as well as his guestimate as to the distance of the animal. If his focus is on anything but enhancing my hunt then it's safe to say that we will not have a productive and rewarding experience.

 

[Rem1903a3]

I would love to hunt the wilds of Tanzania by myself. Its not allowed without a licensed PH present.

I too would relish the opportunity to hunt a new area alone .Heaven!

 

[TOM]

I would love the opportunity to hunt alone! Stalking with bow or even sitting in a blind alone would be more than welcomed by me! I like comraderie like the next guy but sometimes some quiet time in africa would be great.

 

[Brett Becker]

We were left by ourselves ( the wife and I ) at our request on the last afternoon of our hunt in Namibia. We had all the animals on our wish list. Our Ph had urgent business somewhere and asked if he could be released early. We were offered another Ph but thought it would be nice to spend a couple of hours in a blind overlooking a water hole, just the two of us , an esky with with beer and soft drink armed only with a camera. Got some good pics and memories that will last forever

 

[IvW]

That would be irresponsible and illegal, no matter the reason.

 

[jeff]

That would be irresponsible and illegal, no matter the reason.

If you are not hunting I don't believe that it would be illegal, if your not hunting you wouldn't need a professional hunter, at that point you're a sight seeing tourist.

 

[IdaRam]

If you are not hunting I don't believe that it would be illegal, if your not hunting you wouldn't need a professional hunter, at that point you're a sight seeing tourist.

That is my take as well. Although I concede that I don't know that to be true. Never looked into it. My ssumption is that as long as no firearms are present (or bows, spears, atlatls, etc) it would be legal.

 

[IvW]

If you are not hunting I don't believe that it would be illegal, if your not hunting you wouldn't need a professional hunter, at that point you're a sight seeing tourist.

That is my take as well. Although I concede that I don't know that to be true. Never looked into it. My ssumption is that as long as no firearms are present (or bows, spears, atlatls, etc) it would be legal.

So what you are saying is that even though you may be hunting in an area with big 5 present, you can take off and go for a self guided sightseeing tour all on you own without a rifle, bow spear or atlatls(whatever that is) because you are not hunting?

Not correct. If you as a PH have been assigned a client it is your responsibility to ensure his safety during the duration of his stay. If the client wants to go on a sightseeing tour on the same property, the PH needs to accompany such a client to ensure his/her safety.

If the client wants to go on a photographic/sightseeing safari either cultural or for example go on a walking safari to experience wild animals on foot he needs to be accompanied by a suitably qualified tour guide. If such animals or area has dangerous game present the tour guide then needs to be SKS dangerous game qualified to conduct such a safari.

It is the same for hunting, you get PG PH's and you get DG qualified PH's.

Lets take an example: if you are hunting on a property in Limpopo and would then like to do a 3 day tour of the Kruger National Park you will need a PH for the hunting part of your safari and a registered tour guide for the Kruger National Park part of your safari.
This could be the same person as many of us are qualified as PH's and Tour guides.

This is not always done like that but it is the legal requirement.

Below from PHASA:

CLARITY REGARDING PROFESSIONAL HUNTERS AND TOURIST GUIDING:

We have received the following written confirmation, after meeting with the Director: Tourist Guiding, Department of Tourism, regarding the requirements for our members to comply to in order to transfer clients, or when providing extended tourism activities to clients:

“1. Professional Hunters who are merely picking up pax from the airports and transferring them to a particular hunting location are not considered tourist guides.
However, please advise those who are driving paying passengers to obtain a professional driver's permit (PrDP).
In addition, every vehicle that is carrying paying passengers must have its own transportation permit and adhere to requirements prescribed in the transport legislation (National Land Transport Act).
Kindly contact the Department of Transport to enquire if this requirement is applicable to the Professional Hunters.

2. Professional Hunters who provide extended tourism activities such as guided tours at various attractions etc.
In such cases, Professional Hunters must complete the relevant guiding competencies (determined through CATHSSETA) and apply to the relevant Provincial Registrar to be registered as a tourist guide.

Legal Protection of the Client

In 1981, the four Provincial Nature Conservation Departments (Cape, Natal, Orange Free State and Transvaal) introduced legislation to control the hunting, outfitting and professional hunting industries in South Africa.

The object of the legislation was to provide protection for the foreign hunter in South Africa by setting standards that would be obligatory before a hunting outfitter or professional hunter would be licensed to operate, and to provide for the maintenance of these standards once a license has been granted.

Training of the Professional Hunter

The legal requirements to be met before a hunting outfitter or professional hunter can obtain a license are as follows:

All candidates are required to complete a comprehensive training course at a professional hunting school. These schools are private institutions and are only allowed to operate after careful screening by the nature conservation agencies. The syllabus is prescribed by the nature conservation agencies as well.

A variety of subjects which cover the full spectrum of trophy hunting are dealt with. Candidates are required to pass a written examination compiled and conducted by the nature conservation agencies.

Once the professional hunter/outfitter has obtained a certificate, he/she is licensed.

Further Requirements for the Hunting Outfitter

At present the requirement to become a Hunting Outfitter comprises of the following:

• Three years practical experience as a Professional Hunter
• Facilities are inspected which he offers to clients
• Hunting camps, trophy preparation facilities, vehicles and staff are required to conform to set standards.
• Publicity material must be submitted to the Nature Conservation officials before distribution as a safeguard against misleading advertising.
• Regular follow-up inspections are carried out.

Legal Agreements and Facilities

Further protection is provided by the legal requirement for a written agreement:

• Regard to species and sex of game offered
• Fees for trophies and services provided
• Duration of the hunt and daily rates.

This agreement is entered into between the client and the hunter / outfitter prior to the client leaving his own country.

The outfitter is legally responsible for supplying all hunting requirements once the client enters South Africa, e.g.

• transport – getting to and from the hunting area, and while hunting
• hunting camp accommodation, for the duration of the hunt
• catering
• hunting services: trackers, skinners, etc.
• provision of a licensed professional hunter
• skinning and trophy preparation facilities, dispatch of trophies
• arrangements with landowners for hunting of game, should this be necessary
• all licenses and permits required for hunting
• all permits required for dispatch of trophies

Professional Hunters/Hunting Outfitters must be licensed in each province where they operate. It is important that the client checks to make sure that the operator is licensed in the province where the proposed hunt is to take place.

The introduction and enforcement of legislation in the professional hunting industry, geared primarily to protect the client from malpractice, has effectively raised standards.

The Professional Hunter’s Responsibilities

The professional hunter is the person who physically guides a client in the hunting area in order to hunt an animal to obtain a trophy.

• He sees to the welfare of his client while in the hunting camp
• He is in charge of the hunting camp and its personnel
• He makes certain that his client is in possession of the necessary permits, licences or other documents before he allows him to hunt
• He sees to it that his client’s trophies are skinned and prepared according to the correct methods
• He is responsible for his client’s safety while in the camp and in the hunting area.

The Professional Hunter sees to it that his client does not hunt contrary to the provisions of the law.

He does not receive any remuneration from the client for services rendered. The client remunerates the hunting-outfitter for services and trophies, who in turn pays the professional hunter.

He does not recruit clients or offer his services to a client directly, he works for a hunting outfitter who recruits and presents services to the client.

Sample of an Independent Contractor's Agreement between a Free-lance PH and the Outfitter.

The Hunting-Outfitter’s Responsibilities

The Hunting Outfitter recruits the client through advertisements or by other means.

• He arranges and organizes the client’s hunt from start to finish
• He enters into a written agreement with the client with regard to the animals to be hunted and the facilities and service which will be supplied and rendered
• He is directly remunerated by the client for his services
• He furnishes the hunting areas where the animals are hunted and also the camp with all its conveniences and services
• He supplies the camp personnel and pays them
• He supplies the camp with provisions and stores
• He sees to it that the client is guided by qualified licenced professional hunters
• He obtains the necessary permits, licences and other documents enabling his client to hunt legally
• It is his responsibility to obtain the necessary permits to convey and export his client’s trophies and to see to it that the trophies are delivered in good shape and order.

Although the professional hunter is actually in charge of the hunting camp and sees to the skinning and handling of the trophies, and at times provides transport on a hunting trip, it does not exempt the Hunting Outfitter from his overall responsibility to his client.

In many cases the professional hunter and the Hunting Outfitter are the same person and therefore responsible for the combined duties and functions and must also be in possession of both permits to operate as professional hunter and as hunting outfitter.

 

[jeff]

I rented a car drove around Namibia, Sousseifle, Atosha TSumeb and went for hikes and photo graphs and your saying all that was illegal ?

 

[IdaRam]

Hello @IvW
Thank you for taking the time to post that info. I'm going to make a point of reading through it more carefully when I have a bit more time.
I think if you read the posts by @jeff and myself, it is pretty clear we were simply expressing an opinion and not stating a fact. Also some recognition that as clients from abroad, we certainly DON'T know all there is to be known about the legalities in another country. You may have taken it to a bit of an extreme by making the leap to a Big 5 area, when I believe the context in general was a PG hunting high fence SA area.
Never the less, legal or not legal is the benchmark that matters. Staying within the bounds of the law is at the core of the discussion here and your point is well taken. Thank you.
To further the discussion, and I hope you will weigh in here as well, what if a visitor from another country goes to Cape Town, spends a week at the beach, goes fishing, cage diving, etc then rents a car and drivers to Kruger for a day or two and then hires a PH at the last minute for a couple of days of hunting?
Or how about assuming the same scenario, except the individual leaves Kruger and flies to Botswana for a few days at Chobe, returns and then goes hunting?
My point being, isn't there some gray area here?
Thanks

 

[IvW]

I rented a car drove around Namibia, Sousseifle, Atosha TSumeb and went for hikes and photo graphs and your saying all that was illegal ?

No I never said if you booked yourself a self guided tour through Namibia it would be illegal and no it was not.

Your PH never sent you out to do this on your own. You booked yourself this trip without any involvement of a PH, Outfitter or Tour guide which is not illegal.

 

[IvW]

Hello @IvW
Thank you for taking the time to post that info. I'm going to make a point of reading through it more carefully when I have a bit more time.
I think if you read the posts by @jeff and myself, it is pretty clear we were simply expressing an opinion and not stating a fact. Also some recognition that as clients from abroad, we certainly DON'T know all there is to be known about the legalities in another country. You may have taken it to a bit of an extreme by making the leap to a Big 5 area, when I believe the context in general was a PG hunting high fence SA area.
Never the less, legal or not legal is the benchmark that matters. Staying within the bounds of the law is at the core of the discussion here and your point is well taken. Thank you.
To further the discussion, and I hope you will weigh in here as well, what if a visitor from another country goes to Cape Town, spends a week at the beach, goes fishing, cage diving, etc then rents a car and drivers to Kruger for a day or two and then hires a PH at the last minute for a couple of days of hunting?
Or how about assuming the same scenario, except the individual leaves Kruger and flies to Botswana for a few days at Chobe, returns and then goes hunting?
My point being, isn't there some gray area here?
Thanks

Yes there is lots of grey area.

Let's look at your examples for clarification.

If you fly to Cape Town, spend a week at the beach, go fishing, cage diving, etc then rent a car and drive to Kruger for a day or two this you can do all on your own, apart from the cage diving as you will have to book this through a company that is registered to do so and they will basically guide you for the short time while you are on the boat and doing your dive. These people will then also be registered cage diving tour guides with the relevant qualifications and registrations with FAGASA.
For the hunting part even if you book a last minute 1 day hunt, you cannot do so by simply employing a PH. You need to book that hunt through a Hunting Outfitter who will then appoint a PH who will hunt with you. Each of whose responsibilities are outlined above. If during your hunt you wish to go and sit in a blind for let's say the afternoon and only observe animals coming and going, the bird life etc.(even on a non dangerous game property), your PH is responsible to accompany you. He may, legally not leave you in the blind on your own for any reason.
You may have some medical problem arise(heart attack, asthma etc. etc.), a Black mamba may decide to visit the blind, you may fall out of the blind trying to take a better picture etc., your "PH" who had something else to do then returns 6 hrs later and finds a dead client in the safe blind. He is responsible for the duration of your stay, even if it is for only 1 day.

You will sign a contract with the Hunting Outfitter(who will assign a PH) and until that contract expires you will be the responsibility of the assigned PH, at all times.

If however you book the sight seeing part of your visit through a tour company or your Hunting Outfitter(many offer tours as part of extended safaris or family outings), then they have to supply you with a suitably qualified Tour Guide. Once again in this case you will have a contract between yourself and the tour company or Hunting Outfitter which then makes them responsible for your wellbeing.

So in short if you rent your own vehicle and go on your own sightseeing tour to wherever you want, you can do so without a suitably qualified guide, as long as you adhere to the rules and regulations of these areas. If you self drive to Kruger and then while there deside to do a night drive or a walking safari, you will have to book this in the Park and they will appoint qualified guides who will then take you out.

Yes lots of grey area, like driving a car without a driver's licence, all ok until you get caught or cause an accident, before they ask what happened or who is "right or wrong" may I see your driver's licence?

Hope this helps clear it up.

 

[GaryL Chill]

Work in a few short cardio routines every week to keep your heart healthy without