Good Gun Deals This Week

[NE300]

Nice rifle and price. I was about to ask how much that bad boy weighs

Overall weight is 10 pounds. The stock was an English walnut blank from Cecil Fredi Gunstocks and has two mercury recoil reducers installed from C&H Research.

 

[rookhawk]

Overall weight is 10 pounds. The stock was an English walnut blank from Cecil Fredi Gunstocks and has two mercury recoil reducers installed from C&H Research.

10lbs total weight after adding two recoil reducers is a mighty light gun for a 505 Gibbs. It will be a painful, brisk weapon to shoot!

As configured, assuming a mild load of 90gr of cordite (IMR3031 equivelant) with a 525gr bullet at 2300fps and a total gun weight of 10lbs, the rifle outputs 87lbs of recoil!

With the gun somehow magically increased in weight to 11lbs which is a more appropriate weight for a Gibbs, it would still be putting out 79lbs of recoil.

In short, it will be a friggin beast to shoot and the concussive forces will ensure reloading for a 2nd shot takes about an eternity.

 

[freefall]

At least half an eternity.

 

[CJW]

Some guns just aren't proper for certain applications. I'm betting you could remove the reducers from the stock and add more weight via lead, tungsten carbide, etc. But then you have all of the weight at the back. I'm assuming you couldn't do much with the forend or at least not enough.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Don’t know about good deals and may be cluttering up the thread but…

This thing just looks fun!

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/939071894

Affordable big bore:

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/939105963

 

[Spartan5]

404 Jeff in CZ 550 on GB right now

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/938796970

 

[CJW]

These don't usually bring big money from what I've seen but this could be a good option for the guy wanting a DG double on a budget.

Antonio Zoli ~ Express Double Rifle ~ .450-400 3" Nitro Express

Antonio Zoli ~ Express Double Rifle ~ .450-400 3" Nitro Express for sale online.

www.gunsinternational.com

 

[rookhawk]

These don't usually bring big money from what I've seen but this could be a good option for the guy wanting a DG double on a budget.

Antonio Zoli ~ Express Double Rifle ~ .450-400 3" Nitro Express

Antonio Zoli ~ Express Double Rifle ~ .450-400 3" Nitro Express for sale online.

www.gunsinternational.com

You're correct. There is nothing "wrong" with a Zoli and a lot of Abercrombie & Fitch and Orvis labeled guns were actually made by Zoli.

The challenge with a Zoli will be A.) Determining what the regulating load was, B.) Hoping that the regulating load is of sufficient energy to compare to normal ballistics for the cartridge, and C.) Accepting that it is an Over/Under that has a large gape, meaning it is slower to reload and more likely to jam during hasty reloading than the preferred side-by-side models.

All these things stacked up and they aren't worth a whole lot but it certainly would be plenty of gun for big cats, a buffalo, and especially for running boar.

It seems like a good value if the buyer goes into it understanding if they have a change of heart it will be a difficult gun to sell because its "non-conforming" to the majority of buyer's preferences.

 

[rookhawk]

Just throwing out a "Bad Gun Deal This Week" post.

A Rigby made around 1906 that was so-so restored hit gunbroker last week. It sold for an astounding, ludicrous $12,000+ dollars. Other than the restore job, what was wrong with it? It was originally a Rigby 350 but somewhere around 1910 it was re-regulated and the bolt face was altered by Rigby for 350 Number 2. So it was reworked for a rimmed double rifle cartridge for some odd reason, yet the nomenclature on the barrel was not changed. Built on a military action with thumbhole cut out and it had rigby mounts and an optic added by them probably in the late 1930s in a "high mount" fashion so it would clear the flag safety.

I was just shocked by how much it went for in the end considering it was a mediocre restoration and had undesirable caliber changes performed on it.

Bottom line: if you want a classic "Best Gun" get an expert to guide you or buy at a slight premium from known credible sellers. (e.g. Champlin/JJ, Barnett, etc.)

 

[CJW]

You're correct. There is nothing "wrong" with a Zoli and a lot of Abercrombie & Fitch and Orvis labeled guns were actually made by Zoli.

The challenge with a Zoli will be A.) Determining what the regulating load was, B.) Hoping that the regulating load is of sufficient energy to compare to normal ballistics for the cartridge, and C.) Accepting that it is an Over/Under that has a large gape, meaning it is slower to reload and more likely to jam during hasty reloading than the preferred side-by-side models.

All these things stacked up and they aren't worth a whole lot but it certainly would be plenty of gun for big cats, a buffalo, and especially for running boar.

It seems like a good value if the buyer goes into it understanding if they have a change of heart it will be a difficult gun to sell because its "non-conforming" to the majority of buyer's preferences.

450-400 is plenty for elephant as well from everything I've ever seen. @1dirthawker has or had one so maybe hell chime in. He posted previously that his shoots well with Hornady factory ammo. I don't really buy into the larger opening thing. Maybe a PH might want to consider it but as a client.... A good portion of hunters are pretty familiar with the opening of an O/U shotgun.

Anyways, for only $4k I figured a person couldn't get hurt too bad if they decided it wasn't their thing.

 

[rookhawk]

450-400 is plenty for elephant as well from everything I've ever seen. @1dirthawker has or had one so maybe hell chime in. He posted previously that his shoots well with Hornady factory ammo. I don't really buy into the larger opening thing. Maybe a PH might want to consider it but as a client.... A good portion of hunters are pretty familiar with the opening of an O/U shotgun.

Anyways, for only $4k I figured a person couldn't get hurt too bad if they decided it wasn't their thing.

You misunderstand my point. Yes, the regulation Kynoch / ICI load from 1921 and 1926 for the 450-400 3" Nitro Express is sufficient for Buffalo. Yes, the 50gr larger modern bullet at greater velocity than original loads is sufficient for a client to shoot elephant.

But with an "off brand" double rifle, if you do not have the published regulating load for that gun, you are wading into uncertain waters. What bullet, with what powder, at what pressure will be required to get the gun to regulate is an unknown. That means money to have it professionally load-regulated or worst case to have the barrel wedge re-regulated. Barring both of those, you may discover the gun regulates with a load "less than" the 1921 Kynoch load and you're lugging around a gun that lacks the performance you may need.

I've had guns fall into this scenario and it cost me a grand to solve the challenges.

A buyer can dismiss all these potential gotchas and I certainly would for a gun that is a "Great deal" myself, but you do need to acknowledge the potential pitfalls and the difficulty of resale in light of the gun's features.

Put another way, this very same gun with a regulating load known and having been looked over by JJ Peridoux offered for sale at $4995 is a much better deal than the black-hole "we know nothing" offering of an identical rifle at a Cabelas for $4000.

 

[CJW]

You misunderstand my point. Yes, the regulation Kynoch / ICI load from 1921 and 1926 for the 450-400 3" Nitro Express is sufficient for Buffalo. Yes, the 50gr larger modern bullet at greater velocity than original loads is sufficient for a client to shoot elephant.

But with an "off brand" double rifle, if you do not have the published regulating load for that gun, you are wading into uncertain waters. What bullet, with what powder, at what pressure will be required to get the gun to regulate is an unknown. That means money to have it professionally load-regulated or worst case to have the barrel wedge re-regulated. Barring both of those, you may discover the gun regulates with a load "less than" the 1921 Kynoch load and you're lugging around a gun that lacks the performance you may need.

I've had guns fall into this scenario and it cost me a grand to solve the challenges.

A buyer can dismiss all these potential gotchas and I certainly would for a gun that is a "Great deal" myself, but you do need to acknowledge the potential pitfalls and the difficulty of resale in light of the gun's features.

Put another way, this very same gun with a regulating load known and having been looked over by JJ Peridoux offered for sale at $4995 is a much better deal than the black-hole "we know nothing" offering of an identical rifle at a Cabelas for $4000.

I understood what you meant. I'm just acknowledging that this seems to be a well liked rifle from my quick research and I didn't read anything about regulation issues. It's a good price that yes obviously could have the same problems of any double. They're not without their quirks. But again we're talking $4k or less if you do the obligatory lower initial offer, so it may very well be worth the risk considering any other 450-400 will be at least twice that.

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere, nitro express forum perhaps, that these were indeed regulated with Hornady ammo but now I can't find the thread.

I'll stop clogging up the thread now. I'm trying to not buy this anyway. I know of a stock blank set that would make this look like a million bucks.

 

[rookhawk]

I understood what you meant. I'm just acknowledging that this seems to be a well liked rifle from my quick research and I didn't read anything about regulation issues. It's a good price that yes obviously could have the same problems of any double. They're not without their quirks. But again we're talking $4k or less if you do the obligatory lower initial offer, so it may very well be worth the risk considering any other 450-400 will be at least twice that.

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere, nitro express forum perhaps, that these were indeed regulated with Hornady ammo but now I can't find the thread.

I'll stop clogging up the thread now. I'm trying to not buy this anyway. I know of a stock blank set that would make this look like a million bucks.

Good insights, @CJW and not clogging up the thread. If you can find that documentation that suggests the Zoli from that era was regulated with Hornady ammo (a rather recent 450-400 brand) then this gun's prospects turn very favorable. Being able to buy factory ammo, point and shoot, getting 2" or better 4 shot groups at 60 paces is idyllic.

 

[1dirthawker]

450-400 is plenty for elephant as well from everything I've ever seen. @1dirthawker has or had one so maybe hell chime in. He posted previously that his shoots well with Hornady factory ammo. I don't really buy into the larger opening thing. Maybe a PH might want to consider it but as a client.... A good portion of hunters are pretty familiar with the opening of an O/U shotgun.

Anyways, for only $4k I figured a person couldn't get hurt too bad if they decided it wasn't their thing.

RE: the zoli o/u 450-400. from my position, i think that rifle is a steal of a deal! i am considering making an offer on it, and i already have one!!

my rifle was most likely regulated with hornady ammo. my rifle shoots very well under considered norms for a double rifle. as far as a big problem finding out a regulation load, for the hand loader this would not be much of a challenge.

my rifle likes 400 gr bullets at 2100 fps. my gun really shoots well. i shoot north fork bullets thru it and have taken moose, cape buffalo and wildebeest with it. (still waiting for a chance to shoot a brown bear with it)

for the money, i think it is a superior deal/value. re: more time to load than a sxs mostly non issue (i mean how much extra time can it take to open or close that little bit?) anyway, i put a scope on mine and it shoots lights out.

phil shoemaker, a bear guide up here, recommended the zoli to me over a VC rifle, i wood his advice and am happy with my choice.

 

[CJW]

RE: the zoli o/u 450-400. from my position, i think that rifle is a steal of a deal! i am considering making an offer on it, and i already have one!!

my rifle was most likely regulated with hornady ammo. my rifle shoots very well under considered norms for a double rifle. as far as a big problem finding out a regulation load, for the hand loader this would not be much of a challenge.

my rifle likes 400 gr bullets at 2100 fps. my gun really shoots well. i shoot north fork bullets thru it and have taken moose, cape buffalo and wildebeest with it. (still waiting for a chance to shoot a brown bear with it)

for the money, i think it is a superior deal/value. re: more time to load than a sxs mostly non issue (i mean how much extra time can it take to open or close that little bit?) anyway, i put a scope on mine and it shoots lights out.

phil shoemaker, a bear guide up here, recommended the zoli to me over a VC rifle, i wood his advice and am happy with my choice.

Good to hear you're so happy with it. You're right, it seems like a heck of a deal. Eventually I'll regret not buying it.

 

[CJW]

@rookhawk Last night I found on 24 hour where someone said that the rifles were regulated with Hornady. I linked to it but my post was apparently deleted. He got the info while looking at the rifles at SCI and SHOT shows.

 

[Red Leg]

One of the enduring myths about double rifles is that the OU is inherently slower to reload than a SxS. Anyone who has a collection of both OU and SxS shotguns can prove this fallacy to themselves any day at the clays range. Indeed, the fitting on many new supposedly quality SxS doubles today is so bad that it may take a couple of hundred rounds to get it so that it opens quickly at all without substantial downward pressure on the barrels.

To quickly reload an OU, the second set of rounds are simply held slightly differently, and many familiar with both would argue the slightly wider reloading gap facilitates reload rather than slowing it.

Additionally, the OU double is inherently easier to scope and regulate.

Had WWI turned out differently, interwar American sportsmen in particular, would likely have been hunting East Africa with PH's named Stueben or Tomma rather than Perceval and Cunninghame. I would further suspect the concept of a "traditional" double would be as often a fine German OU as English SxS.

All of which is a long way around to say that a quality OU dangerous game rifle can be a great find.

 

[CJW]

@1dirthawker So did you buy it?

 

[1dirthawker]

not yet

 

[CJW]

not yet

Just curious. It says sold.