Electric cars are not as great for the planet as we are told it would seem....

[Rubberhead]

What's, the issue, doesn't everyone live 3 miles from their work and kid's school?

My bad, please accept my apologies...

 

[rookhawk]

Electric cars are a wonderful thing for upper-middle-class Americans but no one else.

A.) Faster acceleration than most supercars, even though 1/10th to 1/20th the cost.

B.) Impress your friends and neighbors

C.) Enjoy a vehicle that's true cost to manufacture is between $150,000-$300,000 but is subsidized by tax credits, manufactured by tax subsidies, and given every unfair advantage over firms that must pay their fair share of tax burdens to operate.

Making claims that they are the future of automobiles is laughable for a variety of reasons, including:

1.) They cannot become more efficient by a factor of ten, the factor they would need to have them make sense. (physics limitations prevent this)

2.) There is not enough rare earth elements to create sufficient vehicles to meet global need.

3.) The only way to power them sustainably and cleanly is to embrace nuclear energy, something that the politics of pro-electric car entities are loathed to do.

4.) They cannot compete on an even playing field because they require the 30% to 50% discount pricing via taxpayer subsidy to be attractive to the market.

This humorous video sums up the electric car nicely:

 

[browningbbr]

This has been a very entertaining thread. Thanks to all for adding humor to the discussion.

 

[sgt_zim]

Are electric cars the new 'diesel scandal' waiting to happen?

Today, diesel is a dirty word and many countries penalise drivers with extra congestion charges and vehicle duty. But could electric cars be the future for all? BJORN LOMBORG finds out.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Some of the comments over there...the "green" crowd has got such a massive case of denial going on. It's painful to watch.

 

[Red Leg]

I would argue that they aren't particularly practical for anyone, regardless of income or class, in huge swaths of the country. One sees the occasional Tesla in downtown Austin or Dallas, but one would be hard pressed to come up with a more impractical means of transportation for most of the state. We travel at 80 mph on our interstates (actually 85-90 to follow traffic), and think nothing of driving a hundred miles for lunch. I don't care what the acceleration curve looks like, but check what the battery burn rate is at sustained high speed, or pulling a load. The new electric F150 is particularly ridiculous - at least anywhere it actually might be used as a truck. I have lost the article link, but apparently abandoned Teslas are becoming something of a joke on evacuation routes in hurricane country. Stuck out in a nor'easter on the upper east coast also wouldn't be a lot of fun.

 

[C.W. Richter]

My twin turbo diesel V8 truck gets 25 mpg (many gas counterparts get 9-14). The turbo diesel tractors get filled up about 2-4x per year (while the gas tractors generally have to get filled up after each day's use.) It would have to be ALL nuke/solar/wind power for e-cars, and even then an incredible amount of natural resources have been exhausted and all the air/soil/water pollution that comes along with manufacturing it (plastics, paint, metals, mining, etc.x10e23!) Just "the next best thing" being sold to the masses! If you like e-vehicles and living in the city, that's fine, but don't impinge upon my preferences, needs or finances. Why would I even consider purchasing new equipment, when that made in the 1950s-2000s run just fine today? We have an abundance of natural gas here, so compressed NG cars, trucks and filling stations are nearby to the farm. That's fine, too. I understand the desire to convert large vehicle fleets (trucks/buses/trains/planes) to "green" energy. The emissions reduction on that side is truly impressive on paper. It's the coal/oil/gas (and even nuke-pumping out heat into the air and waterways) plants belching all the emissions out to produce that electricity (where most consumers sold the idea just don't see it.) Fleet vehicles, maybe. Individuals, no. With today's diesel emission systems (i.e. DEF injection,) you can't even see or smell the exhaust from same.

 

[TucsonFX4]

Electric cars are a wonderful thing for upper-middle-class Americans but no one else.

A.) Faster acceleration than most supercars, even though 1/10th to 1/20th the cost.

B.) Impress your friends and neighbors

C.) Enjoy a vehicle that's true cost to manufacture is between $150,000-$300,000 but is subsidized by tax credits, manufactured by tax subsidies, and given every unfair advantage over firms that must pay their fair share of tax burdens to operate.

Making claims that they are the future of automobiles is laughable for a variety of reasons, including:

1.) They cannot become more efficient by a factor of ten, the factor they would need to have them make sense. (physics limitations prevent this)

2.) There is not enough rare earth elements to create sufficient vehicles to meet global need.

3.) The only way to power them sustainably and cleanly is to embrace nuclear energy, something that the politics of pro-electric car entities are loathed to do.

4.) They cannot compete on an even playing field because they require the 30% to 50% discount pricing via taxpayer subsidy to be attractive to the market.

This humorous video sums up the electric car nicely:

All great points.
I’ll expand by asking if the various major cities (who are almost unanimously promoting electric cars and removing fossil fuels) have the electrical capabilities to sustain adding hundreds of thousands of electric vehicles and their daily charging requirements to their electric grid? That is a substantial increase in electric demand. Even forgetting about the greenies perfect world of clean energy, just using full power current coal, etc; can their grids handle that increase in energy demand. I believe the answer is an overwhelming no.
Heck California can’t even generate enough power without that automotive flip flop (frequent brownouts).

 

[Boyd Brooks]

If you could move demand for electricity to off peak times, most utilities could handle some significant increases in demand.
As these EV’s will be driven to work and plugged in for the ride home, then plugged in to take the kids to sports and then plugged back in for the morning commute, all the demand is at peak times.
I know for me, an EV will not be in my future until I can’t purchase fossil fuel for my vehicle.

 

[rookhawk]

All great points.
I’ll expand by asking if the various major cities (who are almost unanimously promoting electric cars and removing fossil fuels) have the electrical capabilities to sustain adding hundreds of thousands of electric vehicles and their daily charging requirements to their electric grid? That is a substantial increase in electric demand. Even forgetting about the greenies perfect world of clean energy, just using full power current coal, etc; can their grids handle that increase in energy demand. I believe the answer is an overwhelming no.
Heck California can’t even generate enough power without that automotive flip flop (frequent brownouts).

All legitimate questions. Nothing about this is sustainable.

I have a Tesla cyber truck on order, full disclaimer. I bought it because I think it bookends my utility and costs nicely with my diesel truck which I will continue to operate. I bought it for the power, specifications, and because it’s a $100,000+ vehicle for $49,900. I had no delusions about it’s carbon footprint or it’s practicality for changing the world’s car emissions.

I tell everyone I know they are a scam. I remind everyone I’m stealing from them via tax policy, they should be outraged and should fight to end this nonsense. In the meantime, I do think I got a great buy, whenever it arrives.

If we want to talk about changing the world, we need only two things.

1.) a fully nuclear power grid using modular, micro fission reactors. Wholly within reach. Wholly unsupported by the left.

2.) Slow discharge high voltage capacitors made of carbon nanotubes. We are really close. Chevron owns many patents. This will allow us to make energy storage for cars and anything else very lightweight using abundant materials rather than rare earths. 20 years away if the patents aren’t suppressed. If this comes to fruition, the battery will no longer exist in virtually any application from cars to cordless drills.

 

[CoElkHunter]

My issue is in the manufacture of batteries for all these “green” vehicles. Where does everyone expect to dig up all these rare earth metals (3rd world countries) and manufacture millions/billions of EV vehicles?

I know the automotive industry is planning to build batteries here in Kentucky (considered by many America’s 3rd world), I also know that battery chemicals are exceedingly toxic, and that Kentucky has more miles of coastline than any state but Alaska (rivers y’all). Get ready for some Heavy Metal Bourbon

Yes, how many giant open pit lithium mines will it take to provide enough lithium for the massive production of electric vehicle batteries? Like you pointed out, the mines will be in third world countries and the production, cost and environmental issues will be controlled by who? China? That’s my guess.

 

[CoElkHunter]

The ONLY answer in my opinion for the future of a fuel for anything with wheels traveling on roadways is hydrogen fuel. A number of years ago, BMW produced several hydrogen prototype vehicles and loaned them to various “big wigs” around the country, including then Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger of Californicate. The hydrogen was produced with water and these cars had a small gas engine for extended range if need be. What happened to the concept of the hydrogen powered vehicle?

 

[baxterb]

The ONLY answer in my opinion for the future of a fuel for anything with wheels traveling on roadways is hydrogen fuel. A number of years ago, BMW produced several hydrogen prototype vehicles and loaned them to various “big wigs” around the country, including then Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger of Californicate. The hydrogen was produced with water and these cars had a small gas engine for extended range if need be. What happened to the concept of the hydrogen powered vehicle?

back when Tesla told Westinghouse of his plan for tapping the unlimited energy from the earth, Westinghouse asked him, “But where will you put the meter?”

same issue today…

 

[Newboomer]

Something that hasn't been mentioned in this thread is what happens when these batteries become fatigued from road vibration, rough roads, age etc and start to leak? What happens if they rupture in a traffic accident and burn or scatter the contents over the area? What happens if they should freeze and rupture? All potential disasters from toxic liquid, fumes and materials.

No, thanks. You couldn't pay me enough to have one of those things. When all the costs for materials, manufacturing, energy, plus the nonpayment of fuel and road taxes, cost of replacing tires, maintenance and repair of suspension parts because of the excess weight it just does not compute. I'll stick with my old Cummins diesel truck until it falls apart under me. I'll bet it will still be rumbling along when all these electric brain farts are abandoned alongside the road.

 

[CBH Australia]

A standard charger for installation inn your parking spot/carport/garage runs of 240 volt/10 amps.

Yep, same in Australia, but does that mean the 110v American system will take twice as long to charge?

 

[Rubberhead]

Yep, same in Australia, but does that mean the 110v American system will take twice as long to charge?

The US has 120 VAC plugs at 15 amps as standard but there are multiple 240VAC@15Amp outlets in most homes to run clothes driers, electric ovens/ranges and space conditioning. It wouldn't cost much for most folks to have an electrician run a 240VAC@15amp service into someone's garage or carport.

 

[CBH Australia]

As @Challer says the return from renewable energy alternatives actually consumed a ton of resources mined or proccessed , exported to another country for Refinement and manufacture then transported again to the country of origin for transport and installation .
Every step of the way there are diesel powered vehicles to drive this. Not to mention the money for shipping and manufacture all goes offshore.
The emissions and safety protocol can at least be ignored being offshore.

 

[CBH Australia]

Wow, I've only ever seen reference to 110v for the US , makes sense that goods worldwide will as long the voltage.

I think the point is when the masses start drawing a charge overnight for a car in every yard the existing powerlines were not designed to carry the load.

In Australia we use 240v 15a circuits for heavy duty welders so my shed would be we ok.

We get cheaper rates for off peak time electricity overnight, kiss that good by when the electric car becomes popular

 

[John the Electrician]

I can only speculate on the viability and effects of mining and disposal of battery components and their unintended consequences.

I can speak to the challenges and strain electric vehicles would put on the grid. In Wisconsin when we have our normal weather extremes 95 plus degrees in the summer and negative 30 in the winter the electric utility providers take notice.

As someone already mentioned, those peak times cause problems. To get around that all big farms here have generators that are started and stopped by a radio frequency from the utility company. Those peak times are from 4:30 to 10:00 or so at night.

This is the exact same time people would be plugging in their EV’s. I’m also a it skeptical about usability of even passenger vehicles when it’s 30 below up here for a week. Make that -50 in Canada and Alaska.

 

[Fred Gunner]

Living in the Adirondack Mtns. Declared "forever wild" by Gov. Teddy Roosevelt. Tree cutting near power lines requires a binding state wide referendum. The wind blows the trees fall the power goes out...Can't charge your Tesla then can you???

 

[VertigoBE]

Except you got to get that electricity to those cars. The US currently generates about 4,000 TWh of electricity. If we replaced all cars with electric, that is an additional 1,200 TWh.

We may not agree, but my take after 37 years in the industry is that the US grid has been a mess for decades and the problem is so complex, no one is willing to even put forth a real plan.

Now, I didn't even mention that every renewable facility - because the sun and wind are not 100%, always have a shadow plant - gas turbines - close by, running at idle to deal with minute by minute wind and solar changes. Running at idle is not green at all, but there is no other choice. Batteries can't do it except at a very small level. Pumped storage helps but I live near the two largest ones and you can't get them built anymore.

Thus nuclear is the only path and the grid needs to be expanded to do so. Now, try getting a T&D power line permit. Gas pipelines are easier. The rest of the world is building new nukes while in the US we continue to shut them down

There is actually one other existing technology that can respond to the intermittency of renewables. That is having the production plants of large industrials to be rebuilt or expanded to have a much larger buffer in their production process. Especially electrolysis is well suited, but arc ovens too.

I’m in discussions with one such plant that can go from 60 to 220MW in seconds and back down, and keep the low and high consumption for multiple days filling up a buffer before having to go back to normal 150MW consumption.

To come back to the OP, electric vehicles are here to stay, but I foresee a more differentiated approach to transportation in the future than the current “gas is bad, electric is good”.