Double rifle or bolt action?

[Kevin Peacocke]

Been a bit quiet on the red dot on double thing, so I’ll give my two pennies worth. I an Mr Traditionalist as you know, but the confession is that I shot my double poorly, missed two shots on buff at maybe 80 metres range. On the range and at the big bore comps it was no better. So I fitted a Trijicon RMR 3.25 moa and things improved a lot. Then I swapped this out for a 1 moa and it is nothing short of miraculous, a dramatic step up. I spent a lot of effort mounting this sight as low as possible and in the right place so as to be less obtrusive, but more importantly to retain the cheek weld and pointability. The red dot is now a natural adjunct to the whole double rifle feel rather than fighting with it
I have posted the pic before but for the benefit of those that haven’t seen the set up:

 

[Tanks]

... I will only use the Citori for trap. I can do "okay" with it shooting high gun trap but I shoot skeet and clays low gun only. Low gun I just as well throw the expensive O/U at the targets. Perfect fit is essential for moving targets from low gun. Sure, I could whittle on the Citori stock to make it fit better ... but then resale value goes out the window. ...

First, a competent gunsmith can modify the stock for you for a better fit, so it does not look like it has been MacGyvered. Also, why are you worried about the resale value of a low-end possibly Japanese made shotgun that you might have had for decades? We are not talking about a Purdey here, according to listings on GunsInternational the basic models go for $1,500 or so.

One other option you could do to modify and keep the original intact is to replace the stock with one with an adjustable comb. When time comes to sell it, then you could sell it with both stocks.

 

[Daniel Cary]

Been a bit quiet on the red dot on double thing, so I’ll give my two pennies worth. I an Mr Traditionalist as you know, but the confession is that I shot my double poorly, missed two shots on buff at maybe 80 metres range. On the range and at the big bore comps it was no better. So I fitted a Trijicon RMR 3.25 moa and things improved a lot. Then I swapped this out for a 1 moa and it is nothing short of miraculous, a dramatic step up. I spent a lot of effort mounting this sight as low as possible and in the right place so as to be less obtrusive, but more importantly to retain the cheek weld and pointability. The red dot is now a natural adjunct to the whole double rifle feel rather than fighting with it
I have posted the pic before but for the benefit of those that haven’t seen the set up:
View attachment 544006

That turned out really nice & wouldn't hesitate to fit on a double.
I see a lot of doubles 'c similar set up's .. "Still Wish They Made the S2" (Off Topic)

80 Meters is a Far shot, for me, .. in my humble opinion.

 

[Houston Bill]

Been a bit quiet on the red dot on double thing, so I’ll give my two pennies worth. I an Mr Traditionalist as you know, but the confession is that I shot my double poorly, missed two shots on buff at maybe 80 metres range. On the range and at the big bore comps it was no better. So I fitted a Trijicon RMR 3.25 moa and things improved a lot. Then I swapped this out for a 1 moa and it is nothing short of miraculous, a dramatic step up. I spent a lot of effort mounting this sight as low as possible and in the right place so as to be less obtrusive, but more importantly to retain the cheek weld and pointability. The red dot is now a natural adjunct to the whole double rifle feel rather than fighting with it
I have posted the pic before but for the benefit of those that haven’t seen the set up:
View attachment 544006

@Kevin Peacocke, it is hell getting old isn't it....at least with our eye sight! I have become so comfortable shooting my doubles with the Trijicon RMR that I can't imagine going back to open sights.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

First, a competent gunsmith can modify the stock for you for a better fit, so it does not look like it has been MacGyvered. Also, why are you worried about the resale value of a low-end possibly Japanese made shotgun that you might have had for decades? We are not talking about a Purdey here, according to listings on GunsInternational the basic models go for $1,500 or so.

One other option you could do to modify and keep the original intact is to replace the stock with one with an adjustable comb. When time comes to sell it, then you could sell it with both stocks.

Actually, the Japanese made Browning shotguns were MUCH better quality than the same Belgian models. But of course the Citori was only made by Miroku. Thought you would have known that.

Yes, I could spend a couple thousand adding this or that to the Citori but would I ever shoot it better than the old goose gun? Hard to believe that's possible. I am pretty much legally blind in the left eye due to multiple retina detachments and a pile of scar tissue. A silicone buckle around the eyeball points vision in that eye up and to the right respective of the shooting eye. There's also a valley wrinkle in the left eye picture running from lower left to upper right. Everything I see with that eye is twisted into an S. I can see out of that eye but most of the time my brain can't register what I'm seeing and what I'm seeing is not where I'm seeing it. Prism lens in my glasses corrects some of the vertical placement but still badly distorted. The right shooting eye also had multiple retina tears and repairs (thankfully all caught before they became detachments and fixed by searing with a laser ... and yes, it HURTS ... like a cattle prod going off in my brain). The torn spots left debris floating in the eyeball and I have to deal with those obstructing vision, especially on bright days. I estimate thirty percent of the targets I break at the range I can't even see when I shoot. Lost sight of them momentarily. No surgeon will touch that eye to remove the floaters. My sclera is too thin and retina is dicey. A curious thing about the right eye is if bad left eye is closed, everything I see is bowed slightly to the left. There is no physical reason why vision in that eye should be distorted. Apparently my brain is adjusting to the left eye's binocular distortion by registering counter distortion with what I see in the right eye. Obviously, I cannot shoot with both eyes open (the pattern will go wild up and to right). On bright days the damaged light sensitive left eye squints shut. In poor light my brain automatically wants to open that eye when I'm straining to see clearly. Wearing a patch over the left lens doesn't work. I desperately need both eyes to acquire the target, especially small targets like clays. It's also one reason I shoot low gun: I can acquire the target quicker with my poor vision if both eyes are open and the gun is out of the way. So the gun is down and both eyes open when the clay is pulled, target is acquired, then the left eye closes as the gun is mounted. Required a lot of practice at home before the routine became automatic.

I'm also +70 years old. Like it or not, reflexes do deteriorate in the golden years. All things considered, my average at the range is much higher than it should be. If I wasn't naturally a good shot, it would be a total waste of ammo. But I know I can never be "competitive." Too late for that. So why invest in a competition shotgun? It's like the guy in the wheelchair wearing the most expensive running shoes money can buy. What's the point? I honestly do not believe dolling up the Citori would improve my scores beyond what I'm shooting now. I got such a deal on that gun a few years ago, I couldn't turn it down. My daughter likes it so maybe I'll hang onto it. And I shoot trap with it occasionally. I can shoot any gun high gun trap. Yawn!

 

[Rare Breed]

Been a bit quiet on the red dot on double thing, so I’ll give my two pennies worth. I an Mr Traditionalist as you know, but the confession is that I shot my double poorly, missed two shots on buff at maybe 80 metres range. On the range and at the big bore comps it was no better. So I fitted a Trijicon RMR 3.25 moa and things improved a lot. Then I swapped this out for a 1 moa and it is nothing short of miraculous, a dramatic step up. I spent a lot of effort mounting this sight as low as possible and in the right place so as to be less obtrusive, but more importantly to retain the cheek weld and pointability. The red dot is now a natural adjunct to the whole double rifle feel rather than fighting with it
I have posted the pic before but for the benefit of those that haven’t seen the set up:
View attachment 544006

To Kevin’s point, Sunday easily put 2 470 NE into 3 inches at 100 yards off my sticks I could not do that without my red dot

 

[fourfive8]

I am not an expert on doubles- as far from it as anyone can be. Have shot them very little. Too expensive and they seem clubby to me. But that aside, a reflex or dot type sight on one can add greatly for helping the shooter shoot closer to where he is looking. Very practical but very "un-historic" and "non-nostalgic"

One thing to watch for with at least a few of those sights and one wouldn't even consider it remotely possible. But I remember looking through one and shooting a large bore with one a few years ago and oh my, did it have a load of parallax! Can't remember the brand or model, sorry, but very certain it was a reflex design. Seems to me, a sight with a bunch of parallax is about the last thing to have mounted on a big DG gun. I have no idea, maybe unheard of now, but this wasn't over about 5 years ago and the sight was relatively new then. Parallax is easy to see and check for. IMO worth the 10 seconds to check before buying or using... just saying.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I am not an expert on doubles- as far from it as anyone can be. Have shot them very little. Too expensive and they seem clubby to me. But that aside, a reflex or dot type sight on one greatly adds to their utility for shooting accurately. Very practical but very "un-historic" and "non-nostalgic"

One thing to watch for with at least a few of those sights and you wouldn't even consider it remotely possible. But I remember looking through one and shooting a large bore with one a few years ago and oh my, did it have a load of parallax! Can't remember the brand or model, sorry. A sight with a bunch of parallax is about the last thing to have mounted on a big DG gun. I have no idea, maybe unheard of now, but this wasn't over about 5 years ago and the sight was relatively new then. Parallax is easy to see and check for. IMO worth the 10 seconds to check before buying or using... just saying. Use it for what it's worth

Interesting. I have zero experience with those sights but I always understood parallax issues were typically for scopes shooting very long range.

 

[fourfive8]

Interesting. I have zero experience with those sights but I always understood parallax issues were typically for scopes shooting very long range.

Yep, same here. Pretty easy to detect at shorter ranges in scopes with relatively high power and intended for longer range use. That reflex sight really surprised me. I had to check it a couple of times to make sure I wasn't seeing things. Wouldn't think it likely or even possible with a 1X reflex, but it certainly had it. I even checked for parallax in an older Aimpoint red dot I have. Nope, zero parallax as far as I can tell. So I dunno about that particular reflex.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Parallax in red dots is well written up, Google it. These things are about definition more than alignment I think. To put one on without consideration to personal fit is folly I think. Fit on any rifle comes first, a red dot is not a cure for poor fit, it is an enhancement to good fit.

 

[fourfive8]

Parallax dictates that the position of the eye becomes critical to sight alignment not unlike the function of a rear sight. Seems that a lot of parallax would be a liability on a serious DG rifle. I did a google search as you indicated about parallax in reflex sights and the entire first section explains how a reflex sight has zero parallax. Huh? Something doesn’t add up. Wonder if we’re on a different page
A reflex sight is not a red dot sight in common terms. The sight I was referring to as having a lot of parallax was certainly a common brand, high end reflex and that was the point of my original post about checking for parallax. The red dot Aimpoint sight I have is an older model and it has zero parallax.

 

[Rare Breed]

Parallax dictates that the position of the eye becomes critical to sight alignment not unlike the function of a rear sight. Seems that a lot of parallax would be a liability on a serious DG rifle. I did a google search as you indicated about parallax in reflex sights and the entire first section explains how a reflex sight has zero parallax. Huh? Something doesn’t add up. Wonder if we’re on a different page
A reflex sight is not a red dot sight in common terms. The sight I was referring to as having a lot of parallax was certainly a common brand, high end reflex and that was the point of my original post about checking for parallax. The red dot Aimpoint sight I have is an older model and it has zero parallax.

With my SRO red dot I have learned at least for me when I bring the rifle to my eye I see both the red dot in the center and my front sight perfectly vertical with the red dot. May sound crazy but it insures spot on accuracy without any parallax

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Any of you other old timers putting off cataract surgery ... don't! Lens replacement is a game changer, especially for iron sights. I have two (soon to be three) rifles with optional iron sights and no trouble making them work ... IF I look over my glasses. Hmmm. Just now looking out the window at a car across the street I do see the grill more clearly through right eye without my glasses, though not a huge difference. Time to see the optometrist. Before cataract surgery the lens for left eye was thick as a Coke bottle. Afterwards it returned to "normal" thickness, even with the prism added. Anyway, looking over my glasses I have no trouble getting back sight and front sight in focus. Getting the distant target in focus was formerly the challenge but since lens replacement surgery it's not been a big deal. I'm not seeing like a twenty year-old but certainly well enough to punch out a buffalo at <100 yards.

The 760 Remington pump Papa gave my dad when I was born (1952, the year 760 was introduced) has a white bead that I see very well ... except when hunting in snow. My Springfield has a Fire Sight front bead I find easy to see even under the hood. I can easily group it under three inches at 100 yards, but that's the limit.

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

Any of you other old timers putting off cataract surgery ... don't! Lens replacement is a game changer, especially for iron sights. I have two (soon to be three) rifles with optional iron sights and no trouble making them work ... IF I look over my glasses. Hmmm. Just now looking out the window at a car across the street I do see the grill more clearly through right eye without my glasses, though not a huge difference. Time to see the optometrist. Before cataract surgery the lens for left eye was thick as a Coke bottle. Afterwards it returned to "normal" thickness, even with the prism added. Anyway, looking over my glasses I have no trouble getting back sight and front sight in focus. Getting the distant target in focus was formerly the challenge but since lens replacement surgery it's not been a big deal. I'm not seeing like a twenty year-old but certainly well enough to punch out a buffalo at <100 yards.

The 760 Remington pump Papa gave my dad when I was born (1952, the year 760 was introduced) has a white bead that I see very well ... except when hunting in snow. My Springfield has a Fire Sight front bead I find easy to see even under the hood. I can easily group it under three inches at 100 yards, but that's the limit.

Ontario Hunter, I agree with you on the cataract surgery, BUT. I had the surgery about 1 year ago. They did my right eye first. Unbelievable, then the left also unbelievable. Now the right eye went "bad" they re-operated. It was a bit better at least a straight line is now fairly straight. All in on my right eye is about where it started, but the left is excellent.

With the Trijicon mini RMR with both eyes open I can shoot better than ever.

Lon

 

[Tanks]

I am lucky in that I have 20/20 distance, but need reading glasses. I took my pistol to my optometrist, and we modified my dominant eye so that I can see the front sight, but not so much that everything behind it is a blur. The non-dominant eye is clear. It works, shooting with both eyes open.

I sent the prescription to https://huntershdgold.com/ along with frame from https://www.gatorz.com/ as I didn't care for the frames hunter hd gold had.

A little expensive solution but it worked.

 

[Marc Ret]

Six years ago, after a lifetime of perfect vision, my eyesight started failing. Went in for an exam- diagnosis was very aggressive cataracts that would essentially blind me in another 6 months. It's not always old-timers.... I was 44.

 

[Rare Breed]

Any of you other old timers putting off cataract surgery ... don't! Lens replacement is a game changer, especially for iron sights. I have two (soon to be three) rifles with optional iron sights and no trouble making them work ... IF I look over my glasses. Hmmm. Just now looking out the window at a car across the street I do see the grill more clearly through right eye without my glasses, though not a huge difference. Time to see the optometrist. Before cataract surgery the lens for left eye was thick as a Coke bottle. Afterwards it returned to "normal" thickness, even with the prism added. Anyway, looking over my glasses I have no trouble getting back sight and front sight in focus. Getting the distant target in focus was formerly the challenge but since lens replacement surgery it's not been a big deal. I'm not seeing like a twenty year-old but certainly well enough to punch out a buffalo at <100 yards.

The 760 Remington pump Papa gave my dad when I was born (1952, the year 760 was introduced) has a white bead that I see very well ... except when hunting in snow. My Springfield has a Fire Sight front bead I find easy to see even under the hood. I can easily group it under three inches at 100 yards, but that's the limit.

My dad said the exact same thing. I think it is called crystal. He had horrible eyesight but after the surgery 20-20...amazing! I am 64 so far no cataracts just lousy eye sight!

 

[TTundra]

As I'm preparing for my trip next month, I'm learning more and more the advantages of a bolt setup for my specific needs. I've owned a SxS DR, but just wasn't for my liking, thinking a O/U DR would be better, but now I think I'm content with my bolt guns, for now.

Again, all subjective to my needs and wants, but my 460wby can thread the needle to 300 yards with simple and slight hold overs. Not that I would necessarily want to shoot anything to 300, but I know if a lifetime PG specimen stepped out at 200 yards and I was hunting for buffalo at 50 yards, and being able to hit a 5" plate repeatedly off sticks with confidence with old 2x Leupold, the animal would go down ethically and quickly if we so chose.

Above all I think it reinforces the need for a well fitting rifle(s) with capable cartridge(s) to the needs that the hunt dictates.

 

[rookhawk]

I can't speak to all of the newer dot sights, but specifically to the small RMRs made famous by Docter out of Germany, what you see is what you get. Its why they are ideal for a DG rifle. In a last nanosecond hail mary shot before you're trampled to death, holding the gun cockeye with the dot far out of the center of the RMR window, it is still going to send that bullet where that dot reflected.

Tubular aimpoints and whatnot, I have no idea. But RMRs by Docter and their copies are designed to counter parallax woes no matter how poorly you're shouldering the gun and how off you are from a proper sight picture.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Six years ago, after a lifetime of perfect vision, my eyesight started failing. Went in for an exam- diagnosis was very aggressive cataracts that would essentially blind me in another 6 months. It's not always old-timers.... I was 44.

So did they fix it?