Double rifle or bolt action?

[Vintageguy]

I have had a love affair with side by side shotguns for as long as I can remember so it naturally means a double rifle turns my crank. However, the practical part of me has kept me from the purchase. Never say never but my meeting up with one that ticks all the blocks for me from caliber, features, looks, and price isn’t a high probability.
My next trip and likely any future DG trips would be for buffalo. I’m a working class guy and the plain fact is for the cost of the type of double that I would want, I can make another hunt or two. Also, the first shot placed where it does the most good is the job of the client and with my good but still 56 year old eyes a scoped rifle makes the most sense and that means a bolt gun. Sorry, to each their own, but I don’t think a scope belongs on a big bore double and the few I’ve handled with red dots didn’t do it for me either.
My outfit is a Winchester model 70 and Leupold scope. The total in it is less than what many have in just their scopes but it shoots sub moa and is smooth as butter and more importantly I have total faith in it. It’s chambered in 375H&H and it’s all I use for everything.

 

[Rare Breed]

I would not consider a double unless you plan to hunt DG repetedly in Africa..especially if elephant is considered.. And if you consider a double it is beneficial to have it scoped with a QD mount..

Completely respect Pondoro's opinion. On the other hand it also depends on where you are going. I went to Limpopo with TSALA and only took my Chapuis DR in 450-400 and took a Buff, Nyala, Black Impala, Golden Wildebeest and Warthog all with my DR all within 100 yards. I knew however that I would not have 200 yard shots like I would have had in the Eastern Cape so the DR worked for me. Knowing the terrain and type shots you will encounter go a long way helping your decision.

 

[Rare Breed]

As always excellent advice from AZDave!!! +1

There has been alot of very good advise given. Like others have said you need to decide on what your priorities are as far as what you want to hunt and hunt with. My question I always ask is if i am wandering around my trophy room in my 90's reliving past hunts I don't want to kick myself and say I wish I had shot some stuff with a double, or a bolt gun, or a single shot. Ask yourself that question and move forward . Your dreams are yours so live them.

I fall on the side of get a double, but you need to understand going in that the learning cure on a double is steep and expensive. You also need to be disciplined in your hunting and willing to walk away from shots that would be very easy with a scoped bolt gun. you need to shot your double several hunderd rounds to get comfortable with the manual of arms for a double, and a couple hundred more to know exactly where it shoots from 100 in to 10. Then have to work with a PH to get you in position to make an ethical shot on the animal you are harvesting.

If you are still reading and not clicked the back arrow. I owned a sabatti 450NE that was one of the good ones and shot a buffalo, zebra, and warthog with it before a friend talked me out of it. That said If I was looking to buy a first and probably only double I would look for a nice Chapuis, or Krieghoff in the 11-16K range Then the step up in price to VC or Hyem. For caliber the 375 and 450/400 are good client rifles.

What ever you decide practice with your rifle, get in shape and enjoy every second in the bush.

 

[uplander01]

Who comes to mind when one conjurs up the image of an iconic African hunter? Not Ruark. He was just the drunken client. Not Hemingway. He was a flash in the pan. Not Roosevelt. He hunted Africa and shot a freighter full of animals but the guy couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat. Terrible shot by all accounts ... including his own. Of course the epitome of African hunter has to be Ruark's PH, Harry Selby. And what did Selby shoot? A 416 Rigby built on a right-handed standard Mauser 98 (he shot left-handed). He had doubles but almost never used them. According to Selby, 416 bolt action was the perfect gun for PHs. No surprise that he felt 375 H&H was the perfect gun/caliber for clients. Can't disagree with that.

An Official Journal Of The NRA | Harry Selby's Rifles

Selby, a keen enthusiast of rifles and ballistics, formed opinions based on his experiences.

www.americanrifleman.org

So ... according to possibly the greatest professional hunter who lived, the OP would be best advised to hunt Africa with a bolt action. Whether he wants to dress up and pretend to be a "romantic" PH or a client, double rifle is, according to Selby, not the way to go. I must say, however, 416 Rigby in standard 98, while it is a doable build, would not be my choice. Too much recoil in a rifle that's a little on the light side. But it worked for him.

You're throwing some mud on some pretty prolific names there sir....quite judgmental.

 

[Red Leg]

Dose anyone on this site know the difference between advice and advise?!?

There is frankly no practical reason for a client to use a double rifle, and a number of arguments to be made why he shouldn't. To paraphrase my old friend and PH in Mozambique, the only thing that really frightens him other than poor firearm handling is a client arriving with his brand new double.

You need to decide how much nostalgia is worth to you. There is a fiscal cost which you have identified. But there is also an opportunity cost that you need to consider. Assuming you are hunting your next buff somewhere other than a game ranch, it is quite possible that your only shot at that massive dugga boy will be at seventy yards through a narrow window in the brush into deep shade where your target bull is standing with two of his pals. That is a shot that can be sorted out quickly with a scoped .375 ro.416. Will you have the courage to turn it and your only opportunity down when holding an iron sighted double regulated at fifty yards (standard for lower priced models)?

Or perhaps while tracking that buff, a 59 1/2" kudu is spotted by your eagle-eyed tracker staring at you at 175 yards across a broad open savannah. With an iron-sighted double regulated at fifty yards, you can wave.

I currently own several. The only one that I have taken to Africa is my Blaser S2. It is regulated a 100 yards where it shoots a 2.5" LxR/LxR four-shot group. That is with a 1x6 scope for which it is designed (quickly dismountable for a follow-up). By sighting in on the right barrel, I have first shot accuracy out to 250. It is not a traditional double, but at least it is a broadly useful one.

 

[IvW]

You are better off with a proper bolt action...fitted with a scope and qd mounts...
I would sell the 700 and find a decent crf bolt action.
Look for a ZKK602 and build a customized rifle of your caliber choice....
Doubles are overated and come with their own set of issues....

 

[Ontario Hunter]

You're throwing some mud on some pretty prolific names there sir....quite judgmental.

Do your homework. Ruark drank himself to death at a relatively young age. Great writer but very difficult person. Roosevelt was honest about his shortcomings at the pointing end of a gun. By all accounts it was painful to watch. Truly a complex person. He probably did more for conservation than any other president (though Nixon ran a very close race). Hemingway was the definition of complex and difficult. He undoubtedly was greatly affected by inherited mental disease. A very restless person who never seemed to be satisfied. All of these men were great writers and all were undoubtedly psychopaths (at most only 10% of psychopaths are violent killers ... most are successful corporate CEOs, politicians, etc.). It's probably what made them great writers.

I'm not slinging mud at their accomplishments but I don't equate them with Harry Selby as an African hunter icon. Not even close. Anyway, I don't recall photos of any of them with double rifles. Maybe, but I don't remember it. I'm not a big fan of hunting literature. Nonfiction is my preference. Roosevelt seemed stuck on his Winchesters. Hemingway killed himself with a SxS shotgun which was his preferred bird gun so he may have had a double rifle.

I thought about building a replica of Selby's gun but I don't think my fragile retinas could take the recoil of 416 Rigby. Apparently, during the interwar years when German arms industry was restricted, there was a cottage industry of sorts that sprang up rebuilding old 8mm 98 Mausers into African guns. As I recall 416 was the outer limit.

 

[Rare Breed]

I completely agree with the "how much is nostalgia worth to you?" To me a heck of a lot and I am not apologetic about it! I've hunted all my life almost 60 years so nostalgia means a lot to me personally at this stage of my life. To others and it sounds like Redleg is in that group which is totally fine, not that much...the animal means more and a bolt action gives more confidence in making a tougher shot. Completely understand how would you feel if you have a shot you could have made with a bolt action but not a double...I am okay with that but others might not be which is okay too. Also lets not kid ourselves...there is a big difference in already taking a great animal on your first hunt and going back for another...as I said in my earlier response, without question I felt different about my second one than my first.

 

[Nyati]

I believe all of us this forum would love to have a double, well, not one, but several, in different calibers, we just love guns.

But, if you are on a budget, as most of us , it doesn´t make any sense, your rifle will be just fine, spend your hard earned money on hunting.

I have known a few PH´s, and to my question "for a sport hunter, what is the best gun/cartridge combination for DG" the answer has always been the same, bolt action .375HH that you can shoot accurately.

 

[Red Leg]

Do your homework. Ruark drank himself to death at a relatively young age. Great writer but very difficult person. Roosevelt was honest about his shortcomings at the pointing end of a gun. By all accounts it was painful to watch. Truly a complex person. He probably did more for conservation than any other president (though Nixon ran a very close race). Hemingway was the definition of complex and difficult. He undoubtedly was greatly affected by inherited mental disease. A very restless person who never seemed to be satisfied. All of these men were great writers and all were undoubtedly psychopaths (at most only 10% of psychopaths are violent killers ... most are successful corporate CEOs, politicians, etc.). It's probably what made them great writers.

I'm not slinging mud at their accomplishments but I don't equate them with Harry Selby as an African hunter icon. Not even close. Anyway, I don't recall photos of any of them with double rifles. Maybe, but I don't remember it. I'm not a big fan of hunting literature. Nonfiction is my preference. Roosevelt seemed stuck on his Winchesters. Hemingway killed himself with a SxS shotgun which was his preferred bird gun so he may have had a double rifle.

I thought about building a replica of Selby's gun but I don't think my fragile retinas could take the recoil of 416 Rigby. Apparently, during the interwar years when German arms industry was restricted, there was a cottage industry of sorts that sprang up rebuilding old 8mm 98 Mausers into African guns. As I recall 416 was the outer limit.

Hemingway's double was his famous 1913 manufactured .577 Nitro Express by Westley Richards. He only made two African Safaris, and this rifle accompanied him on the latter. However, he also carried it when he conducted voluntary anti-U boat patrols in the Pilar in Caribbean. I assume he was loaded with solids! Fortunately, for the literary world he never had a chance to use it.

I saw it at his Key West home many times before it was sold in auction in 2011 for a third of a million USD.

TR brought a 500/450 Holland & Holland along on his famous safari. He was quite satisfied with the his .405 Model 95 on most things to include lion. But, he grudgingly admitted it was only marginally useful on thick skinned game.

He also owned an Adolph double rifle of exquisite quality, but I do not know the caliber or whether or not it went to Africa.

Yes, like many truly gifted artists and literary figures, both were very complex men. Both had also seen elephant. Ruark on merchant vessels in the North Atlantic and Hemingway in Italy. That too no doubt affected them - and no doubt gave greater depth to their prose.

 

[Red Leg]

Dose anyone on this site know the difference between advice and advise?!?

There is frankly no practical reason for a client to use a double rifle, and a number of arguments to be made why he shouldn't. To paraphrase my old friend and PH in Mozambique, the only thing that really frightens him other than poor firearm handling is a client arriving with his brand new double.

You need to decide how much nostalgia is worth to you. There is a fiscal cost which you have identified. But there is also an opportunity cost that you need to consider. Assuming you are hunting your next buff somewhere other than a game ranch, it is quite possible that your only shot at that massive dugga boy will be at seventy yards through a narrow window in the brush into deep shade where your target bull is standing with two of his pals. That is a shot that can be sorted out quickly with a scoped .375 ro.416. Will you have the courage to turn it and your only opportunity down when holding an iron sighted double regulated at fifty yards (standard for lower priced models)?

Or perhaps while tracking that buff, a 59 1/2" kudu is spotted by your eagle-eyed tracker staring at you at 175 yards across a broad open savannah. With an iron-sighted double regulated at fifty yards, you can wave.

I currently own several. The only one that I have taken to Africa is my Blaser S2. It is regulated a 100 yards where it shoots a 2.5" LxR/LxR four-shot group. That is with a 1x6 scope for which it is designed (quickly dismountable for a follow-up). By sighting in on the right barrel, I have first shot accuracy out to 250. It is not a traditional double, but at least it is a broadly useful one.

or "dose" and "does" !!!! jeeez.

 

[Josh P]

or "dose" and "does" !!!! jeeez.

Grammarly is worth a look, for whatever it's worth (to you or others). I try to use it for all my formal communication these days. Spelling and grammar are always something I need a bit of assistance with myself.

 

[Josh P]

Anyway, I don't recall photos of any of them with double rifles. Maybe, but I don't remember it. I'm not a big fan of hunting literature. Nonfiction is my preference. Roosevelt seemed stuck on his Winchesters.

https://www.loc.gov/resource/ppmsca.36545/

Ernest Hemingway's .577 Nitro Express Double Rifle by Westley Richards

Ernest Hemingway's .577 Nitro Express Double Rifle by Westley Richards Ernest Hemingway's .577 Nitro Express Double Rifle by Westley Richards Even for the larger-than-life Ernest Hemingway, his double-barreled .577 caliber Nitro Express was one big gun. Manufactured by the Westley...

www.africahunting.com

 

[Red Leg]

I completely agree with the "how much is nostalgia worth to you?" To me a heck of a lot and I am not apologetic about it! I've hunted all my life almost 60 years so nostalgia means a lot to me personally at this stage of my life. To others and it sounds like Redleg is in that group which is totally fine, not that much...the animal means more and a bolt action gives more confidence in making a tougher shot. Completely understand how would you feel if you have a shot you could have made with a bolt action but not a double...I am okay with that but others might not be which is okay too. Also lets not kid ourselves...there is a big difference in already taking a great animal on your first hunt and going back for another...as I said in my earlier response, without question I felt different about my second one than my first.

Interesting assumption. I actually have hunted buffalo (and a number of plains game) with one of my doubles. Though, I do admit that I have no desire to do so with any rifle regulated into three-inches at fifty yards.

 

[Graham Hunter]

Interesting assumption. I actually have hunted buffalo (and a number of plains game) with one of my doubles. Though, I do admit that I have no desire to do so with any rifle regulated into three-inches at fifty yards.

View attachment 539876
View attachment 539877
View attachment 539878

Of course you will be shunned by the Purists for having a scope on your double.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Hemingway's double was his famous 1913 manufactured .577 Nitro Express by Westley Richards. He only made two African Safaris, and this rifle accompanied him on the latter. However, he also carried it when he conducted voluntary anti-U boat patrols in the Pilar in Caribbean. I assume he was loaded with solids! Fortunately, for the literary world he never had a chance to use it.

I saw it at his Key West home many times before it was sold in auction in 2011 for a third of a million USD.

TR brought a 500/450 Holland & Holland along on his famous safari. He was quite satisfied with the his .405 Model 95 on most things to include lion. But, he grudgingly admitted it was only marginally useful on thick skinned game.

He also owned an Adolph double rifle of exquisite quality, but I do not know the caliber or whether or not it went to Africa.

Yes, like many truly gifted artists and literary figures, both were very complex men. Both had also seen elephant. Ruark on merchant vessels in the North Atlantic and Hemingway in Italy. That too no doubt affected them - and no doubt gave greater depth to their prose.

Thanks. Yes, if one looks hard there are photos of Ruark and TR with double rifles ... usually over elephants. However, all the "iconic" photos of each of them shows them holding bolt actions: Ruark with waterbuck, Hemingway with leopard, TR with lion (possibly lever action?).

As to seeing elephant, I know how that changes a person. Opening day of elk season 1971 I spent the night fighting off hypothermia on a mountain. It was a harrowing extremely painful experience. The things I saw that weren't there would scare a grown man to death. Literally. Fortunately, I knew what was happening and why and able to make a plan before senses were completely impaired. The next day an examining physician said I should have been dead in his office. My body temperature was insufficient for life. It leaves one searching for a reason ... or trying to create a reason.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Hemingway's double was his famous 1913 manufactured .577 Nitro Express by Westley Richards. He only made two African Safaris, and this rifle accompanied him on the latter. However, he also carried it when he conducted voluntary anti-U boat patrols in the Pilar in Caribbean. I assume he was loaded with solids! Fortunately, for the literary world he never had a chance to use it.

I saw it at his Key West home many times before it was sold in auction in 2011 for a third of a million USD.

TR brought a 500/450 Holland & Holland along on his famous safari. He was quite satisfied with the his .405 Model 95 on most things to include lion. But, he grudgingly admitted it was only marginally useful on thick skinned game.

He also owned an Adolph double rifle of exquisite quality, but I do not know the caliber or whether or not it went to Africa.

Yes, like many truly gifted artists and literary figures, both were very complex men. Both had also seen elephant. Ruark on merchant vessels in the North Atlantic and Hemingway in Italy. That too no doubt affected them - and no doubt gave greater depth to their prose.

Seen “action”?

 

[Red Leg]

Seen “action”?

Yes. “Seeing the elephant” was an expression used extensively during the American Civil War. It was used to describe a first experience in combat. Ruark was dodging torpedoes and Luftwaffe Condor bombers. Hemingway driving an ambulance during intensive combat in Northern Italy. His reporting in Spain was also under very dangerous conditions.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Yes. Ruark dodging torpedoes and Luftwaffe Condor bombers. Hemingway driving an ambulance during intensive combat in Northern Italy. His reporting in Spain was also under very dangerous conditions.

I thought so. Just poking a little fun! I knew they hadn’t seen probably elephant on merchant ships and they were something like 2000-2500 years too late to see them in northern Italy. Unless it was a circus

 

[Marc Ret]

Dose anyone on this site know the difference between advice and advise?!?

If there are, I'd wager a shiny new dime they know the difference between "cartridge" and "caliber", too.