Crocodile Infestation Worry Chief Mpindi

[Doug Hamilton]

When I first hunted the upper Luangwa the head tracker had just lost his son to a crock. As we drove by his village the PH pointed out the spot where the child was taken. There were ten or twelve children playing in the water!

As others have mentioned, there is a very fatalistic attitude about the whole thing among the locals. I don’t see how you can possibly blame the croc.

My buddy was waiting for a flight out on a goat hunt in Kenai. The pilot was late because he had done a fly over and found what was left of Timothy Treadwell and his girlfriend. I don’t think anyone blamed the bear for the demise of that fellow. It kinda falls into the ‘f&@$ around and find out’ category.

You have a good point. If you keep doing things that put yourself in danger you can't really complain about it when things go bad. As for Timothy Treadwell, that was "Darwinism" at work. God's way of weeding out the stupid.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

Best thing we can do at the moment is move the crocs to another less populated area.
We cannot stop the population boom nor stop the locals using the waterways.
I am all for hunting crocs, but in areas where there are only a few left and hunting is not allowed or an option, rather move them to more protected areas.

a great example is where our business has been based on like Tanganyika for the last 30+ years.
we used to regularly see 16-18’ crocs in the national park. We also used to see them often out of the park around our place. Through the years and the often reported attacks and fatalities, the number of crocs that have been killed is rather large.
now when we go into the parks there are hardly any crocs left due to these killings and death by drowning in fishing nets.

the other point is I would wager that there are more crocs killed by fishermen than fishermen killed by crocs.

Move the crocs to a less populated area? Is there such an area? That would be good, but that area would also need to have few crocs already there. Animals that are moved into an area that is already at carrying capacity to not survive. There were deer on Angel Island in San Francisco Bay. They were destroying the habitat and it was decided that they had to go. Of course, being urban California, the locals couldn't stand the idea of killing any of them. At great expense, all of the deer were captured. There was over a hundred of them. They were moved to a county further North where they were tagged and released where blacktails already lived. I think one was killed by a hunter during the hunting season, and several were hit by cars, but within the year every single one was dead. None survived. Wouldn't it have been better to allow hunters (maybe bowhunters?) to take out the excess deer? After California outlawed the hunting of mountain lions, people said that they should move the cats that killed livestock should be moved to another area, but that didn't work either. California is already at carrying capacity for mountain lions. Those that already live in an area tend to kill others that come into their territory. Would crocs be different?

 

[Sue Tidwell]

Best thing we can do at the moment is move the crocs to another less populated area.
We cannot stop the population boom nor stop the locals using the waterways.
I am all for hunting crocs, but in areas where there are only a few left and hunting is not allowed or an option, rather move them to more protected areas.

a great example is where our business has been based on like Tanganyika for the last 30+ years.
we used to regularly see 16-18’ crocs in the national park. We also used to see them often out of the park around our place. Through the years and the often reported attacks and fatalities, the number of crocs that have been killed is rather large.
now when we go into the parks there are hardly any crocs left due to these killings and death by drowning in fishing nets.

the other point is I would wager that there are more crocs killed by fishermen than fishermen killed by crocs.

Interesting. I don't want to see crocodiles being in danger or eliminated entirely. If hunting WAS allowed in this area, would it give fishermen and other villagers a financial incentive to not kill them? would it entice them to find safer ways to be around the water (like wells etc.)? I know this is easy to say in theory but hard in reality, especially for fishermen.

 

[PeteG]

Move the crocs to a less populated area? Is there such an area? That would be good, but that area would also need to have few crocs already there. Animals that are moved into an area that is already at carrying capacity to not survive. There were deer on Angel Island in San Francisco Bay. They were destroying the habitat and it was decided that they had to go. Of course, being urban California, the locals couldn't stand the idea of killing any of them. At great expense, all of the deer were captured. There was over a hundred of them. They were moved to a county further North where they were tagged and released where blacktails already lived. I think one was killed by a hunter during the hunting season, and several were hit by cars, but within the year every single one was dead. None survived. Wouldn't it have been better to allow hunters (maybe bowhunters?) to take out the excess deer? After California outlawed the hunting of mountain lions, people said that they should move the cats that killed livestock should be moved to another area, but that didn't work either. California is already at carrying capacity for mountain lions. Those that already live in an area tend to kill others that come into their territory. Would crocs be different?

Very good point, and there has to be a balance maintained for sustainability.
two things to remember here, we’re only removing crocs that are “problem animals” thus there will be numbers remaining in those rivers and lakes around people. I’d like to only “manage” the individual animals that are designated as problems to their surroundings.
secondly and fortunately there are areas of lower human population that have suffered large losses and some crocs could be relocated. One area is around @spike.t plaxe, Takeri. He is doing a good job protecting the waterway along the ranch and also further downstream there are two large areas that are protecting their waters and incentivising locals not to fish with nets.
It’s the best of a bad situation I guess we’re trying to achieve.

 

[PeteG]

Interesting. I don't want to see crocodiles being in danger or eliminated entirely. If hunting WAS allowed in this area, would it give fishermen and other villagers a financial incentive to not kill them? would it entice them to find safer ways to be around the water (like wells etc.)? I know this is easy to say in theory but hard in reality, especially for fishermen.

It possibly would give them an incentive to a degree, but I doubt it would entice them to change their ways.
that is always the catch22 situation.
And being an area that is not a wildlife area there would be little to no incentive for a hunter to travel there to hunt either.
A crocodile is also not a very good money earner for a region and unfortunately as the meat is likely not utilised it doesn’t add to the protein intake such as buffalo or hippo etc.

 

[Sue Tidwell]

It possibly would give them an incentive to a degree, but I doubt it would entice them to change their ways.
that is always the catch22 situation.
And being an area that is not a wildlife area there would be little to no incentive for a hunter to travel there to hunt either.
A crocodile is also not a very good money earner for a region and unfortunately as the meat is likely not utilised it doesn’t add to the protein intake such as buffalo or hippo etc.

 

[Sue Tidwell]

Thanks for explaining. That all makes so much sense. The meat from our croc in Mozambique did get eaten. We even ate some for dinner one night and the rest was cut into chunks and handed out to the villagers. Our trackers wouldn’t eat it though.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

It possibly would give them an incentive to a degree, but I doubt it would entice them to change their ways.
that is always the catch22 situation.
And being an area that is not a wildlife area there would be little to no incentive for a hunter to travel there to hunt either.
A crocodile is also not a very good money earner for a region and unfortunately as the meat is likely not utilised it doesn’t add to the protein intake such as buffalo or hippo etc.

You're probably right. The villagers probably wouldn't eat it. I ate some crocodile in Zimbabwe, but then I never had a family member eaten by one. If I had, I wouldn't have touched the.meat either.

 

[spike.t]

You may have a point, but I see people in the US constantly trying to blame victims when they are attacked by animals and it annoys me. Mountain lions, wolves and grizzly bears are now showing up in place s where they haven't been seen in over a hundred years and now they attack people and livestock. One woman who my close friend and his wife knew was killed by a cat while she was jogging. We had two horses killed by another. Neighboring ranches have lost many sheep and a few cattle

Hi sorry didn't see whole post as wifi was slow....and your other post....think as you said your place has been in your family for a long time...presumably your ancestors had the means and capabilities of removing the animals that they didn't want there....so I feel you are kind of asking a question you have already answered....the animals were originally there....but were exterminated by your ancestors.....now they are making a comeback...but you all don't like it....as guess what they are attacking you and your livestock.....mmm....sounds family us out here....welcome back to how life was there before....people are just food to predator species....sorry you aren't anything special....regardless of what your religion says about being superior....yeah shock horror I am not religious....had it shoved down my throat at school....as far as I am concerned its caused more wars and killed more people than most things....so yeah to a predator you are simply food....Time people on here realised it and stopped wanting to remove anything that kills a precious human.....sure this will pisss off plenty of people...but I gave up a long time ago worrying what people thought of me.....you either like me or you don't....and same....and I trust very few ....like a few more ..but

 

[R.M.C.]

Is it out of the ordinary for a Chief to complain about the local wildlife?

 

[Doug Hamilton]

Hi sorry didn't see whole post as wifi was slow....and your other post....think as you said your place has been in your family for a long time...presumably your ancestors had the means and capabilities of removing the animals that they didn't want there....so I feel you are kind of asking a question you have already answered....the animals were originally there....but were exterminated by your ancestors.....now they are making a comeback...but you all don't like it....as guess what they are attacking you and your livestock.....mmm....sounds family us out here....welcome back to how life was there before....people are just food to predator species....sorry you aren't anything special....regardless of what your religion says about being superior....yeah shock horror I am not religious....had it shoved down my throat at school....as far as I am concerned its caused more wars and killed more people than most things....so yeah to a predator you are simply food....Time people on here realised it and stopped wanting to remove anything that kills a precious human.....sure this will pisss off plenty of people...but I gave up a long time ago worrying what people thought of me.....you either like me or you don't....and same....and I trust very few ....like a few more ..but

So in your view human beings are never superior to animals. That's one way to look at it I suppose, but you lost.me the religion angle. Animals, regardless of whether or not they are predators, can over populate a given area. When that happens people (like you) are in a position to bring the numbers into line with the carrying capacity of the environment. As far as I can tell, no other animal can do that. I am not willing to feed.people to predators in order to bring the human population into line with the carrying capacity of an area. Do you think a crocodiles family cares what happened to an individual crocodile? Maybe you're still crying about Bambi's mother?

Maybe you don't care what anyone else thinks of you, but I doubt if many do care for you. Of course, you may be a shill writing on behalf of PETA.

 

[spike.t]

So in your view human beings are never superior to animals. That's one way to look at it I suppose, but you lost.me the religion angle. Animals, regardless of whether or not they are predators, can over populate a given area. When that happens people (like you) are in a position to bring the numbers into line with the carrying capacity of the environment. As far as I can tell, no other animal can do that. I am not willing to feed.people to predators in order to bring the human population into line with the carrying capacity of a

n area. Do you think a crocodiles family cares what happened to an individual crocodile? Maybe you're still crying about Bambi's mother?

Maybe you don't care what anyone else thinks of you, but I doubt if many do care for you. Of course, you may be a shill writing on behalf of PETA.

Fk me whatever...peta and yeah I don't...and good for the people that don't....you really are confusing me with someone that gives a fk especially when people really haven't a clue and try and use first world lala land opinions....cheers have a good NYE whenever arrives over there ...oh and me crying over bambis mother....really fk me now I am pissing myself ........actually tried to reply to you in a polite way....but whatever...usual superior untypical American asshole response....as oh yeah you lot are experts and know everything......

 

[BRICKBURN]

Is it out of the ordinary for a Chief to complain about the local wildlife?

To anyone who will listen. Media.

 

[BRICKBURN]

Of course, you may be a shill writing on behalf of PETA.

@spike.t a poster boy for PETA.

 

[spike.t]

@spike.t a poster boy for PETA.

Yeah can't wait ....looking forward to my outfit.....maybe pammy comes included

 

[R.M.C.]

To anyone who will listen. Media.

Oh I understand a little better now lol thank you .

 

[Doug Hamilton]

Fk me whatever...peta and yeah I don't...and good for the people that don't....you really are confusing me with someone that gives a fk especially when people really haven't a clue and try and use first world lala land opinions....cheers have a good NYE whenever arrives over there ...oh and me crying over bambis mother....really fk me now I am pissing myself ........actually tried to reply to you in a polite way....but whatever...usual superior untypical American asshole response....as oh yeah you lot are experts and know everything......

You have got to be drunk. I've got news for you Nature Boy. The The first world assholes living in la-la and are the ones that would agree with you. You know "animals are better than people" or "no one should ever kill an animal". They (and you) think they know everything. Maybe you also think that Patterson should have let the man-eaters of Tsavo keep enjoying rail road workers on rye?

I do not know everything, but I learn. You might try reading a book the wasn't written by PETA or some Hollywood celeb that " loves" animals.

 

[mark-hunter]

Is it out of the ordinary for a Chief to complain about the local wildlife?

I dont know, but I would gladly offer my services to the local chief and his community.

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

So in your view human beings are never superior to animals. That's one way to look at it I suppose, but you lost.me the religion angle. Animals, regardless of whether or not they are predators, can over populate a given area. When that happens people (like you) are in a position to bring the numbers into line with the carrying capacity of the environment. As far as I can tell, no other animal can do that. I am not willing to feed.people to predators in order to bring the human population into line with the carrying capacity of an area. Do you think a crocodiles family cares what happened to an individual crocodile? Maybe you're still crying about Bambi's mother?

Maybe you don't care what anyone else thinks of you, but I doubt if many do care for you. Of course, you may be a shill writing on behalf of PETA.

Talking about animals overpopulation. Look at people population growth in Africa. Human population is what needs to be managed. Animals did a fairly good job managing their numbers until human populations exploded. I just turned my head and looked out on the Zambezi. I do not see any crocs, but I can see cattle on the beach and illegal fishermen in their mokoro's. Am I going to loose any sleep if one of the fishermen are taken, hell no. Will I help recover the body wrap it in a tarp and take it to the family home for burial? Yes, I do it several times a year. Death in Africa is much different than it is in most of the world. A death and burial (at least amongst our Tonga people) involves several ceremonies and then the deceased is not spoken of again.

Doug I do not blame you for your opinion, but you really have a lot to learn about Africa. Come to Africa and learn.

Lon

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

I dont know, but I would gladly offer my services to the local chief and his community.

Mark in most African countries the Chief and the community do not own the animals. The ownership and the responsibility of managing those animals fall under National Parks. If the majority of the Chiefs had their way there would be no wildlife. They would gladly eat the last wild animal while waiting for the next truck that brings the monthly supply of food aid.

Lon