COVID vaccination required by Safari Company or not, your suggestion

[HuntingGold]

After months of having the vaccine readily available and free... This is a summary of local Oregon healthcare workers who have been vaccinated. Survey is very recent but not dated in the table.
I heard similar figures for CDC employees but it was about 2 months ago. I find the figures interesting.

 

[Hunter4752001]

I note you included the link to a wikipedia article on Yellow fever. In case you missed the figures:

"In rare cases (less than one in 200,000 to 300,000),[35] the vaccination can cause yellow fever vaccine-associated viscerotropic disease, which is fatal in 60% of cases."

Currently the death rate due to blood clotting from AstraZeneca vaccine for Covid19 is around 1 in 1,000,000 (current Australian data). As I understand it, the death rate for the mRNA vaccines is far lower again.

As such the comparison to Yellow Fever vaccination does hold up.

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

Hi W

Covid in one form/strain or another will be with us the rest of our lives. I have had the covid shots. I take flu shots every year. I don't like being sick. Especially in a foreign country.

My wife and I love to travel. Governments will make rules regarding covid and we know if we are going to be able to travel internationally again we will have to abide by those rules.

Perhaps it is the American in me but I hate rules and being told what to do. If I was making a choice between outfitters in Zimbabwe and one required vaccination and one didn't, I would probably go with the one that didn't require the vaccination on principle, if everything else was equal, even though I have already had the shots.

Lon, I like you and your rule on vaccination would not stop me from hunting with you. If I was considering an AH outfitter that I didn't have a previous connection to, it probably would stop me from hunting with them. There are way more outfitters in Africa that I want to hunt with than I will ever be able to get around to. Making a rule would probably eliminate them from my list.

Lon, you and I both fall into the demographic that covid is not kind to. You have to make the decision that is right for you, your wife and staff. What ever decision you make will be the correct one for you!

Hi Wheels,
We have no policy concerning Covid, but everyone in our company has been vaccinated. I compare the vaccine to the safety on a rifle. I believe you should have one, but it does not make your rifle safe.

 

[ZG47]

Not everyone who is refusing a covid shot is a "flat earth type" or an anti-vaxxer.
And the covid shot is not a vaccine...it's a shot. Just like the flu shot is not a vaccine. It too, is a shot and each year its a best guess on the correct strains chosen.

I can see your point about what precisely the Pfizer product is BUT my mother is 81 years old and we live in the same house. I got my first jab about two weeks ago, possibly for my mother's sake (I do not know the precise criteria) and I believe that we all have a collective responsibility to do the best we can, instead of finding excuses to hamper science based efforts to.minimise the health impacts of Covid-19. We have recently had issues in NZ with lowlifes entering supermarkets and tampering with food packaging to insert anti Pfizer et al propaganda. Consider the food safety implications of that behaviour!

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

Thank you Bob! And thank you for the prayers! She needs them!
Hi Gina,

In my original post I asked for suggestions concerning a Covid policy for any Safari Co.. Wow did I start a firestorm. I respect your opinion so i would like to ask you a question on how you would handle a hypothetical situation.
Safari co. X sell a 2 on 1 buffalo to 2 unknown to each other hunter. 1 has been vaccinated 1 has not. Upon meeting in camp vaccinated hunter, will not hunt for 10 days with un-vaccinated hunter. Keep in mind there is one cruiser and one PH?
Oh, We did not ask either hunter if they had been vaccinated in their pre hunt info since we respect privacy.

cheers, Lon

 

[Mekaniks]

I think I can understand an outfitter requiring vacination....

If a hunter, or worse, a party show up with covid, it could very well end or very much shorten that outfitters safari season. Safari operators have already been hit really hard the last couple years, and nobody wants to have the "covid safari".

If an outfitter is willing to take that chance, good on them them IMO. At the end of the day it's going to be about how much risk the outfitter is willing to take.....

 

[sestoppelman]

I note you included the link to a wikipedia article on Yellow fever. In case you missed the figures:

"In rare cases (less than one in 200,000 to 300,000),[35] the vaccination can cause yellow fever vaccine-associated viscerotropic disease, which is fatal in 60% of cases."

Currently the death rate due to blood clotting from AstraZeneca vaccine for Covid19 is around 1 in 1,000,000 (current Australian data). As I understand it, the death rate for the mRNA vaccines is far lower again.

As such the comparison to Yellow Fever vaccination does hold up.

Look at the amount of deaths due to YF vaccine over many years and its much less than the Covid vacs in a years time. Cherry picking info is lame.

 

[fish hunter]

Thank you Bob! And thank you for the prayers! She needs them!
Hi Gina,

In my original post I asked for suggestions concerning a Covid policy for any Safari Co.. Wow did I start a firestorm. I respect your opinion so i would like to ask you a question on how you would handle a hypothetical situation.
Safari co. X sell a 2 on 1 buffalo to 2 unknown to each other hunter. 1 has been vaccinated 1 has not. Upon meeting in camp vaccinated hunter, will not hunt for 10 days with un-vaccinated hunter. Keep in mind there is one cruiser and one PH?
Oh, We did not ask either hunter if they had been vaccinated in their pre hunt info since we respect privacy.

cheers, Lon

Did the hunter fly on his own private jet to the hunting property or did he sit on a packed plane full people only god knows who’s been vaccinated.
I’m sure if it’s that big of a deal to the paranoid hunter he would have asked the question about vaccinations well in advance to arriving at the hunting destination.

 

[Nyalamonster]

I would hunt with you if you require vaccinations. I may even choose you over others that do not require it. I hunted Africa this year while not vaccinated. I have health insurance from my employer and would not pay a cent for Covid related sickness. The camp I was in my PH and staff were vaccinated. He was proud of the fact he could get his staff vaccinated. My view now is he cares about his staff and if he didn’t he probably will not care about you. I stopped reading material and started talking to nurses, chemists etc. it’s a statistical equation. Some will beat the odds others will not. I am now choosing to be with the 95% odds that I will not be admitted to the hospital. I’m tough enough to take the sniffles. I have 3 coworkers in the hospital today. Although they all had been exposed at different times over the last year just now they are positive.

Totally agree, same here

 

[sureshot375]

Perspective, perspective... 95% effectiveness rate...

As posted in a previous post on p. 5, what does an effectiveness rate of 95% mean? It means a non-effective rate of 5%.

As of today ~165 million Americans have been fully vaccinated. 5% of these will possibly still get COVID, hopefully in a milder form.

Expect, therefore, 8.25 million fully vaccinated people possibly still getting or spreading the virus, some getting hospitalized, and some dying, possibly up to ~140,000 if the pre-vaccine overall mortality rate of 1.7% holds (165,000,000 x .05 x .017 = 140,250) , and hopefully a lot less if the post-vaccine mortality rate is much lower

Still, a 95% effectiveness rate is, by all qualified medical opinions, tremendously effective in a vaccine even though thousands, and maybe tens of thousands, of vaccinated people may still die

While we all mourn the losses, especially when they hit close to home, the discussion regarding a pandemic - thankfully not anywhere near as lethal as some of the past - should consider the statistics as opposed to the number of cases alone

The problem with your math is that you rely heavily on the 95% effectiveness rate which appears to not be true. Maybe the vaccines were 95% effective against the original variant, but they are assuredly not 95% effective against the Delta variant. The CDC just published a study where 74% of those that were infected in this particular study were fully vaccinated. CDC Study

I know of about 12 people personally who have covid right now. All were fully vaccinated. There may be benefits to the vaccine in terms of protecting against death and severe cases, but the vaccine requirement would not prevent a client from bringing the virus into your camp.

 

[Hogpatrol]

We're getting off track here. No one claims the vaccine will prevent you from getting or spreading the virus. Back to the OP, walk a mile in the safari operators shoes. Do you want any client getting seriously ill while in camp disrupting a safari in the middle of nowhere with little to no decent medical facilities when there's a good chance of being protected from one of those serious illnesses?

 

[BSO Dave]

@Tokoloshe Safaris

To answer your original question, no I would not hunt with an outfitter or patronize any other business for that matter who would require proof of vaccination. Although I recognize the right of a private business to require this, it is also my right to choose who I do business with based on my personal principles.

To force unwanted or unnecessary medicine or medical procedures upon someone is not only a violation of human rights, it defies the fundamental freedoms we were afforded by our US Constitution that at least some of us still hold sacred. This is not just a US concept. The entire free world post-WW2 formulated and agreed to these basic human rights. I suppose western society has forgotten the Nuremberg Code over the last 70+ years?

Regardless of the rationalizations they offer, when you allow a government to manufacture reasons for taking away your freedoms in the name of the "greater good", you have opened the door to tyranny. I personally believe upholding the foundational principles of our freedoms as the true "greater good" in the end..

 

[YancyW]

I wouldn't care either way.

I care far more about how I get along with an outfitter, that matters more than anything else. I have the ability to choose, so I choose people I can call friends.

 

[curtism1234]

The Childrens Hospital in Miami is at 116% capacity. They can't get the shot yet, as can't many adults with other specific health conditions. The argument that the covid-deniers are taking their chances on the shots and masks because it only affects themselves simply does not hold water.

As the USA Today's Friday cover says, "We are failing one another"

 

[BSO Dave]

The Childrens Hospital in Miami is at 116% capacity. They can't get the shot yet, as can't many adults with other specific health conditions. The argument that the covid-deniers are taking their chances on the shots and masks because it only affects themselves simply does not hold water.

As the USA Today's Friday cover says, "We are failing one another

Don't even get me started on the masks... Show me the study data from the CDC or WHO that conclusively proves the efficacy of paper and cloth masks. I'll save you some time. It doesn't exist. Masks, with the exception of N95, or N100, (provided that they are even properly fitted and worn correctly) are nothing more than a public display of compliance. Cloth and paper masks are virtue signaling devices, and not proven scientific tools used to contain viruses. This is not my opinion, this is a fact.. If it makes you feel good to wear a mask, go for it, but to mandate it is tyranny.

As for the USA Today headline, even if the "science" proves it to be true which it clearly does not, do they mention where in the Constitution it states that I am obligated to risk my own health and safety for the common good of others? Once again, what happened to the pillar concept of liberal thought of "my body , my choice", or does that only apply to abortions where ironically the mother is not actually making a choice that affects just HER own body..? That last sentence was rhetorical. Don't bother to answer. We all know the answer already.

 

[ActionBob]

@Tokoloshe Safaris

To answer your original question, no I would not hunt with an outfitter or patronize any other business for that matter who would require proof of vaccination. Although I recognize the right of a private business to require this, it is also my right to choose who I do business with based on my personal principles.

To force unwanted or unnecessary medicine or medical procedures upon someone is not only a violation of human rights, it defies the fundamental freedoms we were afforded by our US Constitution that at least some of us still hold sacred. This is not just a US concept. The entire free world post-WW2 formulated and agreed to these basic human rights. I suppose western society has forgotten the Nuremberg Code over the last 70+ years?

Regardless of the rationalizations they offer, when you allow a government to manufacture reasons for taking away your freedoms in the name of the "greater good", you have opened the door to tyranny. I personally believe upholding the foundational principles of our freedoms as the true "greater good" in the end..

This! Exactly what has been happening in the US since 9-11.

 

[Hogpatrol]

Lon, Can you start another thread on something that's not controversial. You know, like muzzle brakes on hunting guns.

 

[BSO Dave]

As the USA Today's Friday cover says, "We are failing one another"

The headline should have read "the Biden Administration is failing the people."

Are you seriously telling us that you have no issue with a government that locks down citizens, closes private businesses, and forces it's people to take experimental medicine in the name of the "greater good" while at the exact same time they are blatantly facilitating mass immigration and allowing the entry of tens of thousands of illegal immigrants that are not subject to the same mandates? Sorry, but anyone buying into this BS is a special kind of ignorant....

When Biden closes the border until this pandemic is over and then only admits those who are tested and vaccinated in, maybe then will the few citizens with any common sense left will begin to take them seriously over their so-called concerns for the public health..

 

[Just Gina]

Thank you Bob! And thank you for the prayers! She needs them!
Hi Gina,

In my original post I asked for suggestions concerning a Covid policy for any Safari Co.. Wow did I start a firestorm. I respect your opinion so i would like to ask you a question on how you would handle a hypothetical situation.
Safari co. X sell a 2 on 1 buffalo to 2 unknown to each other hunter. 1 has been vaccinated 1 has not. Upon meeting in camp vaccinated hunter, will not hunt for 10 days with un-vaccinated hunter. Keep in mind there is one cruiser and one PH?
Oh, We did not ask either hunter if they had been vaccinated in their pre hunt info since we respect privacy.

cheers, Lon

@Tokoloshe Safaris

Hi Lon,

Well, wow. Thanks for the kind words regarding respecting my opinion. Firestorm, indeed, however that is the current situation in the world right now, unfortunately.

Being that I am a Registered Nurse and not an outfitter or PH, I am not sure I am qualified to answer this question. Since you asked how *I* would handle this hypothetical situation, I shall give you my opinion.

My first question is: Is/was there a policy in place requiring that everyone at camp (PH, staff, hunters, visitors, etc.) have a covid shot that was clearly laid out and communicated prior to booking? If such a policy is in place, then Non-Covid Shot (NCS) hunter clearly violated the outfitters policy and it is his loss. He is excluded.

If there is no such policy in place, and Covid Shot (CS) hunter does not want to hunt with NCS, then he can either 1) go home. 2) sit at camp until NCS gets his buffalo and then go out after. If all the hunt is used up on NCS hunter, well, he excluded himself by refusing to go along.

From the perspective of a hunter, I would not book a 2 on 1 hunt with an unknown person, because even if you eliminate covid from the situation, too many variables on potential issues come to my mind.

And that is my opinion to your hypothetical situation, Good Sir.

Gina

 

[VonJager]

@Tokoloshe Safaris

Hi Lon,

Well, wow. Thanks for the kind words regarding respecting my opinion. Firestorm, indeed, however that is the current situation in the world right now, unfortunately.

Being that I am a Registered Nurse and not an outfitter or PH, I am not sure I am qualified to answer this question. Since you asked how *I* would handle this hypothetical situation, I shall give you my opinion.

My first question is: Is/was there a policy in place requiring that everyone at camp (PH, staff, hunters, visitors, etc.) have a covid shot that was clearly laid out and communicated prior to booking? If such a policy is in place, then Non-Covid Shot (NCS) hunter clearly violated the outfitters policy and it is his loss. He is excluded.

If there is no such policy in place, and Covid Shot (CS) hunter does not want to hunt with NCS, then he can either 1) go home. 2) sit at camp until NCS gets his buffalo and then go out after. If all the hunt is used up on NCS hunter, well, he excluded himself by refusing to go along.

From the perspective of a hunter, I would not book a 2 on 1 hunt with an unknown person, because even if you eliminate covid from the situation, too many variables on potential issues come to my mind.

And that is my opinion to your hypothetical situation, Good Sir.

Gina

Yes I think most outfitters try to avoid booking 2x1 with strangers. The benefit rarely outweighs the risks.