COVID-19 Coronavirus UPDATES, BANS, CLOSURES, ADVISORY, etc.

[Firebird]

We could argue this all day but I'm not sure what your point is or why I should make a point so you can malign it. Kind of like gun control. . .
Maybe we are going about this all wrong. Maybe the dudes here on AH should write the protocols for the rest of the world. Or more likely we are all just venting because we are frustrated.
How much have we learned since March 1? And how much more will we know in the next 6-8 months?
My healthcare update memo from end of August shows that rates in children are increasing (before school began) and remember that most kids haven't even developed underlying conditions yet. Are you brave enough to send your dibetic six year old to public school?At least two other countries claim vaccines before the US does and those countries are not having an election year. And Canada cancelled professional football altogether while the US bickers about democratic states not having football while republican states do have football. So is Canada democratic or just trying to process the best information from the best people available?! Shall I have them call you and get your thoughts before they cancel sports?
So spout numbers all you want but they change daily as does worldwide produced infomation, especially scientific backed infomation.
Hank221-I'm not trying to bust anyones chops here, certainly not yours. And I've got to re read my first post because I'm pretty sure that "all in this together" quote wasn't me. I'm in this much differently than you are. I really believe this has just become a post for people to vent their frustrations.
And for what its worth, I am a paramedic\firefighter and take several medications as well. My wife works in a school district and I have three other kids attending school in a different school district. My fourth and oldest daughter is marrying a cop (i iknow I know) on Thursday and I am trying to figure how to get my very elderly and extremely underlying condition parents in and out of that mess.

 

[Velo Dog]

You guys all have lovely stories about gov't conspiracies and b s tests. So here is the flipside. My paramedic partner at work has in laws from New Orleans. Their youngest daughter started college recently. She brought home the covid 19 to her parents in their 70's -dad is diabetic and mom has copd and I assume other issues. It took dad awhile to die and mom is still in critical care in the hospital.
Also, yes 94% are old and have underlying issues. How many people on this site are older than 50 and take at least on medication per day?! That means you have underlying issues. How many of you have underlying conditions that aren't even diagnosed yet?! Probably you hate going to the doctor. . .
The good news is that the longer the virus gets to rage among us highly intelligent folks, the more the real experts learn to control and treat it.
I wonder how the Dakotas feel about that boost to their economy they call Sturgis now that they have thousands of cases of covid to contend with. How big is the hospital in your neighborhood?
So yes continue to believe all the six month trial tests some college sophomore produces and all the propaganda the press continues to publish just so they can keep the pot well stirred. But in other parts of the world people are still getting infected and dying or at very least missing work for two weeks while they use up their accrued sick leave.
All I'm saying here and I've said it more than once, is that just because it isn't directly affecting you, doesn't mean it isn't affecting someone. And maybe alittle understanding and appreciation as to how and why these numbers are generated is important.

Hello Firebird,

I am sorry to hear of your co-worker’s in-laws experiencing one death and one likely impending death.
Truly sorry.

On that sad note, there are perhaps few who believe this Covid-19 virus is harmless.
However obviously, more and more of us are beginning to suspect that, it is no more deadly to elderly people with diabetes, COPD, HIV, lung cancer, etc., than common diseases such as strep throat, bronchitis, and even the common cold.
One example is: If Covid-19 is so contagious and so deadly, why in restaurants are we required to wear a face mask while standing up but are allowed to remove them while seated ?
What, the boogeyman is not dangerous if you can sit down before he grabs you?..sheesh.

Furthermore, and at least for me personally, the thing that screams fraud, louder than even the above concept, is the way local establishments, here in Anchorage, Alaska report Covid cases.
By far the vast majority of people testing positive never get sick, not even a sore throat or runny nose.
Yet here in Anchorage, once you’ve tested positive, you’re required to re-test each week thereafter until you finally test negative some day.
This virtually always results in testing positive for several weeks thereafter.
And each repeated weekly diagnosis of the same individual is counted as a new “Covid Victim”.
The way my parents raised me, that’s called lying.

I’m tired of being splashed with this fake epidemic hogwash.

Kind Regards,
Paul.

 

[Standard Velocity]

@Firebird, I agree with you that this is a real disease. I don't think it's fake, or a conspiracy, etc.

But, and it's a big but, I (along with many others) believe we are going about this all wrong. Instead of protecting the most vulnerable and leaving the rest to go about their daily lives, we've lumped everyone into the same basket. One result of that is that the most vulnerable are not as protected as they could or should be, while many are so over-protected that they refuse to obey public health orders which are - to them - manifestly irrational.

Take the issue of schools. If every child in a middle school came down with the COVID, over 90% would have no symptoms whatsoever. The rest likely would feel better than if they had the common cold (obviously, I except those kids who have had transplants, or have immune disorders, etc. - but we can address these kids separately). The issue is not protecting those kids from a virus which will cause fewer deaths than excess alcohol consumption on university campuses, but to protect those they go home to, if they do indeed go home. Why not focus on the real issue rather than the stupid line "we're all in this together." We manifestly are not.

Now, I said I don't believe in conspiracies (as a rule). But it strikes me that what you have in the US is Democrats who will do anything to avoid having a vaccine approved before election day, even if such a vaccine would save lives, and Republicans who will do everything they can to have a vaccine approved before election day, even if early approval would cost lives. Equally, Democrats seem to want more deaths and lockdowns, because that will hurt Trump, and Republicans seem to want more open economies because that will help Trump.

Am I wrong? Aren't both sides happily prepared to play with people's lives for political reasons?

So how exactly are we all in this together?

(For what it's worth, I'm 62, and take immune-suppresive drugs. I'm also about as white collar as they come)

Thank you for presenting a reasoned argument. I disagree with you but at least nobody’s screaming.

I do not feel Democrats nor Republicans are looking to kill people for political ends. I do wholeheartedly believe Trump is incapable of shepherding this country through this and, unfortunately, the vast majority of Republican leadership is willing to ignore their best judgment in favor of supporting Trump; right or wrong.

With regards to a vaccine, there is surely a middle ground between reckless approval of anything and everything and the plodding traditional approval process. Let’s say a fatally flawed vaccine is produced, consuming valuable time and resources. Not only would thousands (hundreds of thousands?) be negatively affected (if not death, potential lifelong disability) but the world would be set further behind in creation and production of the vaccine. To paraphrase a very popular talking point, we don’t want the actual cure to be worse than the disease.

It is bonkers that this thing, that should unite us all in a common cause, has become political.

 

[Red Leg]

"Democrats want the virus to continue" is nothing more than republican talking points.

We supported closing down the country this spring so that our schools would reopen normally now, that we can dine indoors now, that we can attend large gatherings now, and the election can be held safely.

The reason we do not have these things and instead pissed away months (if not years bc the worst is still to come) of financial pain is because Trump lied to his supporters and the country. He said this thing will just go away, its no worse than the flu, dont wear masks --- and his supporters believed him and still resist the very solutions that would manage this crisis. As the Woodward tapes show - Trump knew this was going to be a crisis, he knew it was an airborne disease, he knew masks would help greatly, he knew it is 5x more deadly than the flu, and he knew over a 1/2 million people were going to die. And he choose to lie instead of be a leader. As weasely as I think Mike Pence and Mitch McConnell are, I do not question their leadership and commitment to containing this crisis. If we had President Pence, we would be in a much better position than where we are today in this.

The bottom line: this has been the worst case scenario response (with still no planning for the future i may add) and it has been led by a completely incompetent, narasistic, compulsive liar that does not care one bit about this country or anyone in it besides himself.

With respect, that is nonsense. On several levels.

First of all, we are a continental country with a republican form of government. The States, not the federal government, have responsibility for disaster response - storms, earthquakes, and pandemics. The Federal Government is there to provide support. Agencies like FEMA, the CDC, and DOD are tools which state government can request. Special appropriations represent another form of aid during such a crisis. All have been effectively employed.

Such decentralized management was inherently necessary in the case of a mildly dangerous pandemic where the public health environment ranges from the teaming burroughs of New York or Los Angeles to small town and rural America. The policy of one would be ludicrous in another.

And while it might get away with it for a while due to media and politician stoked hysterical citizens, the Federal government taking charge of the total response to such a crisis would herald an eventual constitutional crisis. Last I looked, we still have a Bill of Rights. And no matter how hysterical the fear mongering, I am unwilling to give those rights away to a "temporary" dictatorship.

Considering those challenges, the US has done remarkably well. Our deaths per 100,000 are less than the European Union. Known cases are only somewhat higher, but we have done substantially more testing. Who knows what they have been in China. Hospitals never reached over capacity, and no one in this country ever perished due to the absence of a ventilator. Of course none of that reaches the MSM outlets watched by half the country.

The actual worst case scenario took place in the State and City of New York. There, where draconian stay at home orders were dictated, little was done to protect the most vulnerable citizens in the state - those residing in assisted living and nursing homes. Indeed, the governor's patient acceptance criteria dictated to those homes insured the death of thousands. So if you are intent on finding a criminally negligent leader to blame, you might start with Governor Cuomo.

Finally, all responses to issues like this are indeed a cost benefit analysis problem. How much damage to the American economy and personal livelihoods is worth saving the next Covid patient? How many people with heart issues, undetected cancer, emotional trauma, etc should would kill to save the next Covid patient? These are real questions a governor and a President have to ask. They seem an obvious and necessary calculus to me, but then again, I was a professional soldier.

At the start of this, the horribly flawed UK model indicated +2.5 million deaths were likely in the US. Had that been true, there would be some (though only "some" - we are a nation of 325 million) legitimate reason for the concern being pandered by the media. In spite of that possibility, ceasing all economic activity was never a real option. As the truth about the actual fatality rate (still largely hidden by the MSM and one of our political parties) became apparent, the President tried to strike a hopeful balance. I too wish he could articulate his vision and strategy more clearly, but his actions - when compared to the nation's closest peer - the European Union - have worked pretty well.

And we have quite a ways to go before we hit half a million deaths - even as many states have counted them. And of course there is that pesky vaccine solution on the horizon. I should not be surprised that the MSM and the Democrat Party seem willing to politicize that as well. There is a second level of criminality it might be worth your time to review.

 

[Hank2211]

"Democrats want the virus to continue" is nothing more than republican talking points.

We supported closing down the country this spring so that our schools would reopen normally now, that we can dine indoors now, that we can attend large gatherings now, and the election can be held safely.

The reason we do not have these things and instead pissed away months (if not years bc the worst is still to come) of financial pain is because Trump lied to his supporters and the country. He said this thing will just go away, its no worse than the flu, dont wear masks --- and his supporters believed him and still resist the very solutions that would manage this crisis. As the Woodward tapes show - Trump knew this was going to be a crisis, he knew it was an airborne disease, he knew masks would help greatly, he knew it is 5x more deadly than the flu, and he knew over a 1/2 million people were going to die. And he choose to lie instead of be a leader. As weasely as I think Mike Pence and Mitch McConnell are, I do not question their leadership and commitment to containing this crisis. If we had President Pence, we would be in a much better position than where we are today in this.

The bottom line: this has been the worst case scenario response (with still no planning for the future i may add) and it has been led by a completely incompetent, narasistic, compulsive liar that does not care one bit about this country or anyone in it besides himself.

I really don't want to make this thread into another Politics thread (we really don't need two of those).

I apologize for getting you going, but perhaps you can tell me where I said that "Democrats want the virus to continue"? You won't find that in my post.

If you read what I said, I criticized both sides - Democrat and Republican - for politicizing the virus. I don't believe you can say, with a straight face, that that hasn't happened, or that the only people who act in their political best interests are Republicans.

Mine referred to early approval of a vaccine - and I maintain that both sides are happy to play with lives for political ends.

By the way, I have no dog in this hunt. I don't live in the US (though I am married to an American and my kids are American and live in the US). Just what I see from the outside.

 

[curtism1234]

I really don't want to make this thread into another Politics thread (we really don't need two of those).

I apologize for getting you going, but perhaps you can tell me where I said that "Democrats want the virus to continue"? You won't find that in my post.

If you read what I said, I criticized both sides - Democrat and Republican - for politicizing the virus. I don't believe you can say, with a straight face, that that hasn't happened, or that the only people who act in their political best interests are Republicans.

Mine referred to early approval of a vaccine - and I maintain that both sides are happy to play with lives for political ends.

By the way, I have no dog in this hunt. I don't live in the US (though I am married to an American and my kids are American and live in the US). Just what I see from the outside.

Fair enough. I didn't mean to single you out; I just saw an opening and went for it

 

[cpr0312]

 

[cpr0312]

Idiotic logic, which is being applied here in some places in NC and across the country. To have to wear a mask 15 feet to the table, and then not wear it the rest of the time

 

[spike.t]

 

[spike.t]

A bit more common sense.

Top Belgian scientist calls for herd immunity coronavirus strategy

The resurgence of coronavirus is nothing to be feared and lockdown measures are doing more harm than the pandemic itself, a leading Belgian medical scientist has said.Jean-Luc Gala, head of the prestigious Université Catholique de Louvain Saint-Luc clinic and a specialist in infectious diseases, has

www.thetimes.co.uk

 

[Standard Velocity]

A bit more common sense.

Top Belgian scientist calls for herd immunity coronavirus strategy

The resurgence of coronavirus is nothing to be feared and lockdown measures are doing more harm than the pandemic itself, a leading Belgian medical scientist has said.Jean-Luc Gala, head of the prestigious Université Catholique de Louvain Saint-Luc clinic and a specialist in infectious diseases, has

www.thetimes.co.uk

We can’t trust common sense but we can trust science

How often have you been urged to use common sense during an argument or a debate? The problem is, common sense is an unreliable indicator of truth.

www.google.com

 

[Red Leg]

We can’t trust common sense but we can trust science

How often have you been urged to use common sense during an argument or a debate? The problem is, common sense is an unreliable indicator of truth.

www.google.com

Common sense tells me that when Barack Obama buys an 11 million dollar estate on Martha's Vineyard that in his heart of hearts he really isn't sweating climate change and rising sea levels very much. Common sense tells me that every time Biden boards his chartered jet for the campaign he isn't losing a lot of sleep over his carbon footprint. Common sense tells me that when Christiana Figueres, executive secretary of U.N.'s Framework Convention on Climate Change says, "This is the first time in the history of mankind that we are setting ourselves the task of intentionally, within a defined period of time, to change the economic development model that has been reigning for at least 150 years, since the Industrial Revolution," that her agenda has everything to do with a socialist revolution and nothing to do with climate change. Common sense tells me that when a state like California can not provide for its own power needs in a nation that is energy independent that something is badly wrong. Common sense tells me that when people ignore such obvious facts that Joseph Goebbels is proven more correct everyday.

His exact quote is worth repeating - “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”

I don't "deny" that climate change occurs. What I do believe is that the question is very much open to what extent man is a contributor. What my common sense tells me is that the MSM, a cabal of socialist politicians, and a mass of well meaning but completely uninformed citizens of Western countries (note - China pays no attention to this idiocy) have not only given up all critical thought on this one issue, but they attempt to silence those who would pursue it. That strikes me as more than a little problematic. Joseph Goebbels would be proud. Or perhaps the better comparison is chief inquisitor Father Vincenzo Maculani da Firenzuola, appointed by Pope Urban VIII, when on April 12, 1663 he began the inquisition of physicist and astronomer Galileo.

It is common sense to observe, that a similar silencing of debate is occurring with respect to Covid 19. If one can't entertain the notion that may indeed be happening, one is by definition close minded. If one feels obligated to attack or silence someone, for posing such questions, then he or she has simply become another foot soldier in the world's latest socio-fascist campaign.

 

[1dirthawker]

been moose hunting for a couple weeks and been unplugged from the news. i believe it was earlier on this thread that someone posted the CDC results at that time (late august), the readers digest version was,:

average mean age of death for an american = 79 years (ish)
average mean age of death for a american covid death - 79 (ish)

seems pretty closely related to me. people of that age usually have some underlying health issues by that time of life. i.e. heart issue, high blood pressure, copd, etc, etc.

ANY sickness, flu, cold, pneumonia, infection etc WILL kill some of these vulnerable individuals. so will the covid virus.

i would like to see the country open up, if wearing mask is the answer, those that are concerned should wear em, if not concerned, don't. people that are vulnerable need to make careful decisions every day on their diet, mobility, travel etc. i have no doubt they will do the right thing regarding this virus as well.

 

[1dirthawker]

Common sense tells me that when Barack Obama buys an 11 million dollar estate on Martha's Vineyard that in his heart of hearts he really isn't sweating climate change and rising sea levels very much. Common sense tells me that every time Biden boards his chartered jet for the campaign he isn't losing a lot of sleep over his carbon footprint. Common sense tells me that when Christiana Figueres, executive secretary of U.N.'s Framework Convention on Climate Change says, "This is the first time in the history of mankind that we are setting ourselves the task of intentionally, within a defined period of time, to change the economic development model that has been reigning for at least 150 years, since the Industrial Revolution," that her agenda has everything to do with a socialist revolution and nothing to do with climate change. Common sense tells me that when a state like California can not provide for its own power needs in a nation that is energy independent that something is badly wrong. Common sense tells me that when people ignore such obvious facts that Joseph Goebbels is proven more correct everyday.

WELL SAID!

 

[Standard Velocity]

Common sense tells me that when Barack Obama buys an 11 million dollar estate on Martha's Vineyard that in his heart of hearts he really isn't sweating climate change and rising sea levels very much. Common sense tells me that every time Biden boards his chartered jet for the campaign he isn't losing a lot of sleep over his carbon footprint. Common sense tells me that when Christiana Figueres, executive secretary of U.N.'s Framework Convention on Climate Change says, "This is the first time in the history of mankind that we are setting ourselves the task of intentionally, within a defined period of time, to change the economic development model that has been reigning for at least 150 years, since the Industrial Revolution," that her agenda has everything to do with a socialist revolution and nothing to do with climate change. Common sense tells me that when a state like California can not provide for its own power needs in a nation that is energy independent that something is badly wrong. Common sense tells me that when people ignore such obvious facts that Joseph Goebbels is proven more correct everyday.

His exact quote is worth repeating - “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”

I don't "deny" that climate change occurs. What I do believe is that the question is very much open to what extent man is a contributor. What my common sense tells me is that the MSM, a cabal of socialist politicians, and a mass of well meaning but completely uninformed citizens of Western countries (note - China pays no attention to this idiocy) have not only given up all critical thought on this one issue, but they attempt to silence those who would pursue it. That strikes me as more than a little problematic. Joseph Goebbels would be proud.

It is common sense to observe, that a similar silencing of debate is occurring with respect to Covid 19. If one can't entertain the notion that may indeed be happening, one is by definition close minded. If one feels obligated to attack or silence someone, for posing such questions, then he or she has simply become another foot soldier in this latest socio-fascist campaign.

Ha! That is rich.

And the knight in shining armor descends. Funny how you drop into every one of my comments to defend other members posts.

Every time I hear an argument begin with an appeal to common sense it is with very few exceptions based on little to no evidence. While I realize your examples are facetious, it is truly mind numbing to equate the purchase of a home close to the water with environmental policy conviction.

There is an internet statistic that claims regardless of subject every thread will inevitably descend into a comparison to Hitler. Not sure how true it is but Goebbles will have to do.

And to your point regarding repeating lies long enough to gaslight a country; the untrue statements that fall out of Trump are orders of magnitude greater than any president in my lifetime. Greater in both number and severity.

If “common sense” is the glue that holds an argument together you might be using Scotch tape where you need epoxy.

 

[Red Leg]

Ha! That is rich.

And the knight in shining armor descends. Funny how you drop into every one of my comments to defend other members posts.

Every time I hear an argument begin with an appeal to common sense it is with very few exceptions based on little to no evidence. While I realize your examples are facetious, it is truly mind numbing to equate the purchase of a home close to the water with environmental policy conviction.

There is an internet statistic that claims regardless of subject every thread will inevitably descend into a comparison to Hitler. Not sure how true it is but Goebbles will have to do.

And to your point regarding repeating lies long enough to gaslight a country; the untrue statements that fall out of Trump are orders of magnitude greater than any president in my lifetime. Greater in both number and severity.

If “common sense” is the glue that holds an argument together you might be using Scotch tape where you need epoxy.

Rich indeed. I gave you examples and facts. Feel free to dispute them. Also actual quotes - you should educate yourself and look them up. I am afraid that I am unaware of "dropping into every one of "your" comments." I do not know who you are and do not follow you. I do indeed absolutely disagree with your thesis with respect to this issue. You resort to being angry and insulting. Common sense tells me that pretty much speaks for itself.

 

[npm352]

South Africa is set to open on Oct. 1 for international travel, but not for to certain countries with high infection rates. They will require negative COVID test within 72 hours.

Looking up, but I doubt Americans will fare well in this at first.

 

[Standard Velocity]

Rich indeed. I gave you examples and facts. Feel free to dispute them. Also actual quotes - you should educate yourself and look them up. I am afraid that I am unaware of "dropping into every one of "your" comments." I do not know who you are and do not follow you. I do indeed absolutely disagree with your thesis with respect to this issue. You resort to being angry and insulting. Common sense tells me that pretty much speaks for itself.

With respect, some of your “facts” are equivalent to: some fast cars are red, Jim drives a fast car, therefore Jim’s car is red.

Please do show me where I am being insulting or angry. It is obvious you are an intelligent person who is well educated. For someone who is both of these things to construct simplistic and misleading arguments feels disingenuous. Rhetorical simplicity to frame your argument. False equivalency. I assume you are quite good at debate.

If you believe the end justifies the means many abbreviations of conscience are tolerable. Just “Get R Done” you know. I choose to believe it does matter how you get there.

 

[aldomoz]

Good news South Africa will open 1st October...

 

[Red Leg]

With respect, some of your “facts” are equivalent to: some fast cars are red, Jim drives a fast car, therefore Jim’s car is red.

Please do show me where I am being insulting or angry. It is obvious you are an intelligent person who is well educated. For someone who is both of these things to construct simplistic and misleading arguments feels disingenuous. Rhetorical simplicity to frame your argument. False equivalency. I assume you are quite good at debate.

If you believe the end justifies the means many abbreviations of conscience are tolerable. Just “Get R Done” you know. I choose to believe it does matter how you get there.

Facts, nested in rhetorical simplicity, have always seemed the most effective means to counter the typical closed-minded, emotional climate change acolyte or their latest "we are all going to die" Covid alarmist cousin. Interesting isn't it that the belief systems seem to overlap substantially. The respective followers are even being used by the same political class to further the same political agenda. It should be a red flag to any educated person when a scientific theory is couched in terms of whether or not we "believe in" it - in this case - climate change. The religious parallel is unmistakable and should be disturbing.

What also should be concerning, to even those who swallow these belief systems whole cloth, is the patent refusal to entertain alternative facts or argument. When one points out the hypocrisy of an Obama sipping wine on his coastal estate or perhaps a Pelosi eating ice cream from her freezers as small businesses collapse, we are told not to question their "convictions." That is the definition of surrendering one's independence of thought. - one's ability to use one's common sense.

I freely admit that I am open to being convinced that man is causing dramatic warming of the earth. I have yet to see those conclusive facts. Indeed, that a large group of politicians and idealists have seized on the climate change issue to support a particular economic and political agenda that is the antithesis of democratic capitalism while doing everything in their power to mute alternative theses, is, at least, cause for added suspicion if not outright skepticism.

I think the MSM is, in fact, offering a single catechism of stories with regard to both the theory of man-made climate change and the seriousness of Covid (along with their hate of the President). That is by definition a propaganda campaign. I believe it should be the responsibility of any free-thinking citizen to try and fully understand the "why" behind such a coordinated strategy. I believe most historically aware individuals would agree that Joseph Goebbels was something of an expert on the subject. But you are correct, he was indeed a Nazi. Perhaps you prefer Trofim Lysenko or some other Leninist or Stalinist. They were after all Soviet Socialists.

So, I believe you are wrong with regard your "facts." I dispute them. I use alternative information, comparative analysis, examples, and yes, my God-given common sense. And I have no earthly idea to what you refer by "means" justifying the end with regard to any argument I made. But with regard to that whole common sense thing - I would urge you to try it.