Controlled round feed for Dangerous Game

[IvW]

IvW, can you give more details on this?

Too light way to light for caliber.. cracked stock behind the receiver and pistol grip... full mag, pull the trigger and the bastard dumped all the cartridges in the mag on your feet. Shit open sights.....used a lot of duct tape to keep it together and finish the safari....

 

[IvW]

The ZKK and CZ are not the same....

 

[Nevada Mike]

Provided the hinged floor plate, magazine box, spring and follower work properly, the bolt has no hiccups and the feed ramp is correct and polished, just about any rifle will work, I think. Problem is, many rifles fail on one or more points on my list.

 

[Sideshow]

I’m a bit of a Blaser fan for deer and PG but…..The main down side of the Blaser in a DG setting would be the Blaser click! Almost entirely operator error in not fully pushing the bolt forwards but nevertheless a factor to consider. I also don’t consider the Blaser design to be great for dirty environments as I’ve seen too many have issues when a bit of grit stops the rifle fully going into battery. I think that was what stopped the LSR2 being more successful in the military trials. I can recall one local deer stalkers target shoot where three Blasers struggled and had to have the bolts stripped and cleaned in order to keep functioning. The rest of the Mauser derivatives kept going without issues

Was just about to ask how the would operate in a dirty environment. Thanks for that post.

 

[mark-hunter]

@SRvet
This is very brave of you to say this about Blaser on this forum!
I admire you for that!

 

[Rule 303]

False. Please elaborate..

Perception or personal definition quite literally does not matter in this case. It has no plunger ejector and in addition the bolt face is not recessed. These two factors allow the rim to slide under the extractor during forward motion. The fact that it does not have the full length Mauser type extractor does not matter in the least.
View attachment 542435
This bolt face is not PF.. It IS CRF. It’s actually pretty amazing to me that this is still being debated..

This is a partial CRF. In a proper CRF the extractor has some of the rim under it before the round clears the mag box/feed rails. The SAKO 85 does not. The SMLE is the same, the rim is under the extractor before it is chambered but not until the round is just clearing the mag box. So the 85 is not a true CRF.

I have not measured the surface area on a SAKO 85 extractor but other SAKO's have about the same grip area on a case as the Rem 700 extractor.

 

[Rule 303]

I started out working for Remington. A very accurate out of the box Rifle. When hunting on my own for dangerous game I want a Model 70. When moving you can reload with a much more forgivable hinged floor plate. The average guy will never have a problem. I have seen the push feed not extract under pressure. Everybody needs to make their own choice. I made mine!

I have had an M98 fail to fed, fail to extract, come to think of it I have had or seen them fail in all areas. This is the reason I would not touch a CRF for years. Was not until I was talking with a M98 nut that he showed me why those failures occurred and what was need to fix. Most due to wear, modifications not done properly or just a faulty part. Now I like all types and my 416 Rigby is CRF (CZ550), a great rifle. So are my 2 M17 Enfields. One had extraction problems, took it to a smith who knew P14/M17. Had a look and said wrong extractor. Somebody had put an M98 extractor on it. Just put an M17 extractor on it no more problems. He also showed me one with Ruger m77 extractor on it. They work as they are just a shortened M17 extractor.

Just remember the most dangerous game on earth is pursued with Push Feeds. I have not seen a CRF, other then some sniper rifles used in battle....................Mind you if something does go wrong you normally have more than 1 person backing you up

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

This is a partial CRF. In a proper CRF the extractor has some of the rim under it before the round clears the mag box/feed rails. The SAKO 85 does not. The SMLE is the same, the rim is under the extractor before it is chambered but not until the round is just clearing the mag box. So the 85 is not a true CRF.

I have not measured the surface area on a SAKO 85 extractor but other SAKO's have about the same grip area on a case as the Rem 700 extractor.

I think it’s definitely debatable what crf action or variant is best but it is indeed crf. It controls the round into the chamber. The round does have to chambered to gain control of it like a PF

The extractor on the 85 is quite a bit more robust than that tiny, clippy thingy that Remington calls an extractor.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

I have had an M98 fail to fed, fail to extract, come to think of it I have had or seen them fail in all areas. This is the reason I would not touch a CRF for years. Was not until I was talking with a M98 nut that he showed me why those failures occurred and what was need to fix. Most due to wear, modifications not done properly or just a faulty part. Now I like all types and my 416 Rigby is CRF (CZ550), a great rifle.

Just remember the most dangerous game on earth is pursued with Push Feeds. I have not seen a CRF, other then some sniper rifles used in battle....................Mind you if something does go wrong you normally have more than 1 person backing you up

Why in the world do people compare sniping to DG hunting? I guess I get what you’re saying but it’s not a good argument.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

 

[Rule 303]

I think it’s definitely debatable what crf action or variant is best but it is indeed crf.

The extractor on the 85 is quite a bit more robust than that tiny, clippy thingy that Remington calls an extractor.

We will have to agree to disagree. The 85 is not a true CRF just as the SMLE is not a true CRF. Frome what I have read and been taught a true CRF has some of the rim under the extractor before it clears the mad/feed rails. The 85 does not. The vide you put up clearly shows this. If you have some other definition of what a true CRF is please let us know what that definition is.

 

[Rule 303]

Why in the world do people compare sniping to DG hunting? I guess I get what you’re saying but it’s not a good argument.

Not comparing sniping but actual military small arms, after all going into battle is somewhat more dangerous than hunting. However I did put the smiley face there to show this part of my post was more of a piss take and not to be taken to seriously.

 

[Puddle]

Provided the hinged floor plate, magazine box, spring and follower work properly, the bolt has no hiccups and the feed ramp is correct and polished, just about any rifle will work, I think. Problem is, many rifles fail on one or more points on my list.

Way back when I handed the M70 SE to a 'smith who knows what he's doing for work on the spring, follower, and feed ramp. Afterwards, I was surprised how long it took me to become convinced without checking that a round was actually chambered when working the bolt. Slick as all get out.

 

[Tam Dl]

Nope only partially.....

And this raises the point that there are quite a few new actions coming out that say they are CRF but are some unique approach to the issue, certainly not battle tested Mauser, Winchester or SMLE designs.

 

[Tam Dl]

it is debated because some people think that only Mauser long extractor makes CRF action.

So, many will claim S85 is push feed.

I understand function of both systems (sako 85 and m98). But also I think that this debate is obsolete in this specific form s85 vs m98 - especially because it started long before appearance of sako 85.

There is a tie breaker available (about which I have only read and have no direct experience of) which is did it work reliably. At the design level, magic, but I read it failed, embarassingly, on large cartridges. There was a fix for this a gunsmith could do, etc... May be an internet myth, but then why are the limiting cartridge size. It can't all be because of Trudeau.

 

[Puddle]

And this raises the point that there are quite a few new actions coming out that say they are CRF but are some unique approach to the issue, certainly not battle tested Mauser, Winchester or SMLE designs.

Yup, like the M704 action which I took a look at while pondering a 404J build...

 

[Tam Dl]

Not comparing sniping but actual military small arms, after all going into battle is somewhat more dangerous than hunting. However I did put the smiley face there to show this part of my post was more of a piss take and not to be taken to seriously.

I don't know. I don't demand total air superiority before I will enter a country.

So your serious suggestion is based on comparing an automated system of cartridge control to a manual one? I hope you see the problem with that...

 

[Tam Dl]

The CRF vs push feed argument seems to just fall into preferences for specific firearms, most notably the model 700 vs Mauser, or model 70. I think we are slowly entering a new world. I don't know that it will roll out into DG any time soon. The new world is one where the model 700s, sole benefits of being available in adequate action sizes for some cartridges, and easily indexed into a lathe are now irrelevant. CNC total manufacturing is changing even delicate features of firearms. A neat example is the Wilson Combat improved extractor for the 1911, or their line of 2011s, where they simply worked through and eliminated prior design flaws. There are many shops that are working with similar technology.

This isn't the old school of making some raw components in true industrial scale then adapting them to do a job with cartridges they were not designed for. Every action can be sized to a specific cartridge, or need. Small custom shops are turning out actions and offering them in multiple styles, and they offer CRF as an option. These actions can have complex features designed into them, and making a model 700 tube would require more machining, conceptually, than a double bridged action. Leaving things on like dovetail scope mounts actually reduces machining time, potentially.

Perfect component accuracy is not reduced to an action with a tubular form, either. You can have any shape you want.

However, getting these features into a DG rifle, say a Guide Rifle, may take a while. And the cost, due to low volume, may be greater than hand work.

 

[Tam Dl]

Again, leaving aside the specific guns with their particular features, why would one not want CRF? If Remington offered a 700 in a CRF that worked perectly, what would be the downside? Harder to top up? Seyfried had an article on a professionals rifle, and his example was a model 700 that was gone over by, I think, Brown Precision. He had a couple of pros for push feed, I think. I will check the article if I can find it.

 

[BeeMaa]

Again, leaving aside the specific guns with their particular features, why would one not want CRF?

I can cycle the action on my Blaser R8 faster than any CRF out there and get a second shot more quickly. I can have a QD scope mount that is connected to the barrel (not the receiver) and maintain perfect zero every time. I can change calibers in a matter of minutes. And I can break the rifle down for travel (even between camps) easily with just two capture screws and not worry about quick reassembly and having to rezero the scope.

That's why I don't want a CRF.

However if you want a CRF, I also see no reason you shouldn't have one. Use whatever you want to hunt within the legal limits.