Controlled round feed for Dangerous Game

[Rule 303]

Barnes TSX 400 gr and I seat them to factory OAL which is just covering the canalure. Seem to group well enough. About 1.25" at 100 yards which is not bad for old 3x Weaver scope and 72 year-old shooter. Minute of buffalo.

Sorry I was wondering more about mono solids like the Woodleigh Hydro and the various similar ones in the US and SA. Are you able to still get the required velocity out of them, or do they seat deeper and use powder space.

 

[Rule 303]

Mud in the water, go with an action with fast lock time. Unless modified, this eliminates the Mausers, Enfields and Springfields. My pick, Winchester Model 70 or one of the customs.

View attachment 604182

Which Enfield are they talking about? The SMLE -not good for a DG rifle unless you are Bell - has a lock time in the 1 to 2 millisecond range.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

sorry if it’s asked all the time but! I read heaps on CRF vs push feed out of interest.
I believe the advantages are reliable extraction and reliable feeding in various positions.

One example I read was that if a hunter was knocked over it will feed upside down. We hope that doesn’t happen and we hope to make the first shot count and as a minimum have the DG quartering away not charging.

I see there are big bore push feed rifles from Sako and Remington.

I think my Tikka T3 .308 will feed reliably in unusual positions is the CRF feed advice relating to old push feed rifle design issues? Have some manaufacturers overcome these to make a reliable smooth action?

I have a Cz550 safari magnum but mainly due to being on clearance.

@CBH Australia
I Have bot push feed and CRF. Personally I can't tell the difference betwixt with when used correctly. My push feed Savage will feed at any angle even upside down.
To me it's all about being familiar with your rifle and it's use so you don't short stroke it and cause a jam.
Both are good actions and to me it's a personal preference as to what you use. Both work well in my books and it's an argument that one is better than the other that's been going on since push feeds came out. Purists say CRF others say push feed.
If one was better than the other why would Roy Weatherby use push feeds instead of CRF.
Just the rambling if an old fart that could care one way or tother. As long as they work does it really matter.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Sorry I was wondering more about mono solids like the Woodleigh Hydro and the various similar ones in the US and SA. Are you able to still get the required velocity out of them, or do they seat deeper and use powder space.

@Rule 303
According to Geoff at Woodleigh the hydros can be loaded to the same velocity as the protected point without issue as they ride in driving bands and DONT increase pressure.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I don't believe I've ever seen a BSA Majestic. In high school I worked at a gun shop and we did take in one shipment of BSA rifles but they were refurbished military. Mauser as I recall. Beautiful guns but for whatever reason they just didn't sell in spite of good price.

I have googled dozens of Monarch photos and none appear to have muzzle brakes or ported. Was this specific to 458 rifles?

@Ontario Hunter
No BSA even put a muzzle brake on their horrible little 243. The first thing owners did was have a gunsmith remove it. It was a noisy little bitch
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Well I got into shooting about 1977. First rifle I bought was a Model 94 in 30-30. The second was a rem 700 in 270. Still have that but is now a 35 Whelen. Oh and you are not helping, I am trying to reduce the number of rifles I have not increase the number.

@Rule 303
All you need is the Whelen.
I bought my 94 about the same time for the princely sum of $80, then got rid of that after punching my finger betwixt the lever and trigger and got a 788 in 22-250 and a 303-25. That's when my love affair with 25s started
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

So I’m getting ready to put together a 375 h&h for a buf and kudu hunt. What action should we build it on?

@wysongdog
Just get a Ruger African in 375 Ruger.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I like the guppy belly mag and the bent bolt handle. Yes they are hard work to get up to speed as a sporting rifle. Can always get a Rem 30 if you can find one.

@Rule 303

M17 in 35 Whelen AI without guppy belly and action lightened to lighter than the REM mod30.
P14 in my 25 with guppy belly and unaltered action
Both cock on closing and Timney triggers set at 2#.
I do like my Enfields.
Bob

 

[Ontario Hunter]

@Rule 303
View attachment 604927
M17 in 35 Whelen AI without guppy belly and action lightened to lighter than the REM mod30.
P14 in my 25 with guppy belly and unaltered action
Both cock on closing and Timney triggers set at 2#.
I do like my Enfields.
Bob

So, the trigger guard is not attached to magazine box? I note the military trigger guard is still on the M17 but mag box has been changed to smaller capacity.

 

[Rule 303]

@Rule 303
According to Geoff at Woodleigh the hydros can be loaded to the same velocity as the protected point without issue as they ride in driving bands and DONT increase pressure.
Bob

Mate you miss my point. With a standard length action I feel the Hydros and similar bullets (they are a long round for the weight) may have be seated to deep to get enough propellant behind them to get the velocity. In my Rem 700 375H&H I use AR2209. With the Hydros I have to use a faster burning powder like AR2206H to get near the same velocity and the bullet is siting on the powder. AR 2209 gives me way better velocity and good accuracy with 300grn Woodleigh soft nose than AR2206H does.

In my 416Rigby I use the same powder charge for the soft nose and Hydros. Hydros are 2550 fps and the 310/300 soft nose are doing 2450fps.

I like the P14 & M17's as well.

 

[Rule 303]

So, the trigger guard is not attached to magazine box? I note the military trigger guard is still on the M17 but mag box has been changed to smaller capacity.

Like most rifle without detachable box mag the bottom metal is the bottom of the magazine but is not attached to the magazine box. The mag box is sandwich between the bottom metal and the bottom of the action. The Trigger Guard is part of the bottom metal.

On modified bottom metal the Trigger Guard is still part of the bottom metal, either straightened out or an after market one fitted, least ways on all the ones I have seen.

Sorry to cover more than you asked just wanted to make sure (hope I did) that i did not give a wrong impression about the set up.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

So, the trigger guard is not attached to magazine box? I note the military trigger guard is still on the M17 but mag box has been changed to smaller capacity.@Ont

@Ontario Hunter
The trigger guard is not attached to the mag box.
On the M17 with the straighter floor plate the mag capacity has been reduced to 5. Yes you did read correctly.
The original M17 with the guppy belly unbeknownst to most people has a mag capacity of 6 so straightened it just brings it back to the standard 5 rounds in the mag.
Bob

 

[BeeMaa]

I found the video I made, ironically it was for this thread... . All the way back on post #10! However it was not in an easy format to view, so I added it to my YT page.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

@Ontario Hunter
The trigger guard is not attached to the mag box.
On the M17 with the straighter floor plate the mag capacity has been reduced to 5. Yes you did read correctly.
The original M17 with the guppy belly unbeknownst to most people has a mag capacity of 6 so straightened it just brings it back to the standard 5 rounds in the mag.
Bob

Thanks. I couldn't see the floorplates in that image. So floorolate/trigger guard is retained; just the walls of mag box are modified. Does that require cutting them off and reattached or simply bending? I have a P14 junker I'm considering building into something. Guppy belly doesn't turn my crank. Seems a whole lot of extra modifying is required to change one of those guns into an "acceptable safari rifle." Bolt face, bolt handle, magazine box, receiver ears, + the usual feeding rail and loading ramp adjustments. Getting rid of those damn ears is the one hurdle that most concerns. Apparently they are hard as hell. Not easy to grind off.

 

[Rule 303]

Thanks. I couldn't see the floorplates in that image. So floorolate/trigger guard is retained; just the walls of mag box are modified. Does that require cutting them off and reattached or simply bending? I have a P14 junker I'm considering building into something. Guppy belly doesn't turn my crank. Seems a whole lot of extra modifying is required to change one of those guns into an "acceptable safari rifle." Bolt face, bolt handle, magazine box, receiver ears, + the usual feeding rail and loading ramp adjustments. Getting rid of those damn ears is the one hurdle that most concerns. Apparently they are hard as hell. Not easy to grind off.

The hardness depends on the make. Those made by Winchester are relatively soft - for an Enfield- but still hard, Remington's are hard and the Eddystone are bloody hard. The shape of the bolt handle is done to put the bolt knob where it should be, just above the trigger. Some straighten it then sweep it back.

Not sure you can modify the P14 mag box to suite what you want as it is done for the rimmed round. The M17 box can be lengthened, shortened, made wider fairly easily. Shortening requires cutting all the other methods just need the sides taken off and the end plates turned around. I had this done on my M17 in 358RUM.

Guppy belly, some keep the depth and just have their new stock shaped with the wood sloping back to the trigger guard. Just slightly more of a slope than standard stock.

Just wondering about modifying the bolt face. The P14 is the preferred bolt for large diameter cases. The M17 bolt face can be opened up to about the 404 Jeffery case base. Anything bigger requires the P14 bolt. Well this is what I have been told by a gunsmith. looking at the bolts I don't see it. Put an M17 extractor on a P14 bolt and you have an M17 bolt. If you find it hard sourcing an M17 extractor just get a Rugger 77 extractor. They are shorter but work as Bill Rugger styled his bolts of the M17.

Yes some work involved but you can end up with a bloody good rugged, reliable rifle. You can get cock on opening kits Dayton Tarsier. My two came with these, I would have preferred they have been left as cock on closing.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

The hardness depends on the make. Those made by Winchester are relatively soft - for an Enfield- but still hard, Remington's are hard and the Eddystone are bloody hard. The shape of the bolt handle is done to put the bolt knob where it should be, just above the trigger. Some straighten it then sweep it back.

Not sure you can modify the P14 mag box to suite what you want as it is done for the rimmed round. The M17 box can be lengthened, shortened, made wider fairly easily. Shortening requires cutting all the other methods just need the sides taken off and the end plates turned around. I had this done on my M17 in 358RUM.

Guppy belly, some keep the depth and just have their new stock shaped with the wood sloping back to the trigger guard. Just slightly more of a slope than standard stock.

Just wondering about modifying the bolt face. The P14 is the preferred bolt for large diameter cases. The M17 bolt face can be opened up to about the 404 Jeffery case base. Anything bigger requires the P14 bolt. Well this is what I have been told by a gunsmith. looking at the bolts I don't see it. Put an M17 extractor on a P14 bolt and you have an M17 bolt. If you find it hard sourcing an M17 extractor just get a Rugger 77 Rextractor. They are shorter but work as Bill Rugger styled his bolts of the M17.

Yes some work involved but you can end up with a bloody good rugged, reliable rifle. You can get cock on opening kits Dayton Tarsier. My two came with these, I would have preferred they have been left as cock on closing.

@Rule 303
Sorry to say but your gunsmith is pissing in your pocket and telling you it's raining.
The P14 bolt face is set for the rimmed 303 British which has an identical size to magnum cases from 257 Weatherby to 458wm.. It may need to be opened up a bit for the big magnums tho.

The bolt face of the M17 is standard 06 size but can be opened up to suit magnum cartridges.

Why would anyone stuff around modifying the mag box to suit the 375H&H when you can buy one for $75 if the internet.
The rear of the action is easy opened up to make it suitable for bigger cartridges and modified the bolt stop to suit. The ears are easy to mill of and can even be cut off with a hacksaw then milled to finish easily.
The issue is filling the gap in the top of the action where the rear apature sight sits.. This is usually done by making a block to go in it then milling the rear of the action to the profile you want.
Dang you could even do a single square bridge Mauser profile if you wanted.
Yes you can go to a cock on opening but this cause issues with the sear so why not leave it as is, it works and is actually quicker to operate as cock on closing when you get used to it..
If the gunsmith is knowledgeable then working in an Enfield is no different to any other military Mauser style rifle. Problem is some Smith's want you to believe it's harder and therefore more expensive. Bullshit.
For example straightening a ninety degrees bolt handle is the same as changing the dog leg. Same amount of work in both but for some unknown reason the charge is higher for the Enfield.
I could keep going but I've made my point
Bob

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

@Rule 303
Sorry to say but your gunsmith is pissing in your pocket and telling you it's raining.
The P14 bolt face is set for the rimmed 303 British which has an identical size to magnum cases from 257 Weatherby to 458wm.. It may need to be opened up a bit for the big magnums tho.

The bolt face of the M17 is standard 06 size but can be opened up to suit magnum cartridges.

Why would anyone stuff around modifying the mag box to suit the 375H&H when you can buy one for $75 if the internet.
The rear of the action is easy opened up to make it suitable for bigger cartridges and modified the bolt stop to suit. The ears are easy to mill of and can even be cut off with a hacksaw then milled to finish easily.
The issue is filling the gap in the top of the action where the rear apature sight sits.. This is usually done by making a block to go in it then milling the rear of the action to the profile you want.
Dang you could even do a single square bridge Mauser profile if you wanted.
Yes you can go to a cock on opening but this cause issues with the sear so why not leave it as is, it works and is actually quicker to operate as cock on closing when you get used to it..
If the gunsmith is knowledgeable then working in an Enfield is no different to any other military Mauser style rifle. Problem is some Smith's want you to believe it's harder and therefore more expensive. Bullshit.
For example straightening a ninety degrees bolt handle is the same as changing the dog leg. Same amount of work in both but for some unknown reason the charge is higher for the Enfield.
I could keep going but I've made my point
Bob

I concur with this, and somewhere I’ve got a copy of an article that goes into detail on how to make it in a double square bridge. I’ll have a look ,but I’m sure it’s in a box packed away for the move up the farm……along with all sorts of gear I’m missing….
Gumpy

 

[wysongdog]

@wysongdog
Just get a Ruger African in 375 Ruger.
Bob

What’s the fun in that? Lol this gives me a reason to build me a new gun lol.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

What’s the fun in that? Lol this gives me a reason to build me a new gun lol.

@wysongdog
True. But to save stuffing around lengthening actions and changing mag boxes just rebarrel an Enfield to 375 Ruger. Easier, cheaper and the same punch in a shorter action. Leave the guppy belly in it so you can stuff 5 rounds in the mag.
Bob

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

@wysongdog
True. But to save stuffing around lengthening actions and changing mag boxes just rebarrel an Enfield to 375 Ruger. Easier, cheaper and the same punch in a shorter action. Leave the guppy belly in it so you can stuff 5 rounds in the mag.
Bob

Ah, but Bob, the ruger , whilst a fine cartridge, is boring, therefore one must strive to achieve greater things. I am always one to "encourage " people to build bigger and better things
gumpy