Cheap Rifles and Hypocrisy

[Hunter4752001]

I have 2 Savage model 10 rifles. Both shoot exceptionally well, clover leaf groups. Have encountered three problems:

i. The Accutrigger system must have been designed by a liability lawyer, definitely not a gunsmith or small arms engineer. It is designed so that if the rifle is dropped the sear drops to a detent from which it can't fire. On one rifle it performs very reliably, but on the other it frequently drops out of engagement with little more shock than cycling the bolt vigorously. You go to pull the trigger and nothing happens. You have to cock the action again before you can use it. Adjusting the trigger weight doesn't fix the problem. ps The apologists at Savage (and their fan boys) are aware of this as a common problem however they refer to it as a designed in safety feature. As I said, a trigger designed by a lawyer.

ii. Poor ejection is an issue in these rifles. This is easily fixed with an enhanced ejector kit (longer ejector pin and stronger spring).

iii. Some of the Model 10s came with a very cheap plastic stock which would easily flex causing contact with the barrel. Fit an after market stock, end of problem.

Apart from these issues, they are a very well designed rifle, capable of great accuracy.

 

[Tundra Tiger]

Did you have an issue with the OEM Aluminum Weavers?

I have to confess... I don't remember even trying them. I put the Burris on right away and called it good. Also, for whatever it's worth, hers is a .308, and the load that worked best had a 150 grain Partition on the front. It produced essentially one shot kills on the bear and caribou. I believe it'll be marvelous in Africa. Here's the bear (8.5', 26.75" skull).

 

[Inline6]

I have to confess... I don't remember even trying them. I put the Burris on right away and called it good. Also, for whatever it's worth, hers is a .308, and the load that worked best had a 150 grain Partition on the front. It produced essentially one shot kills on the bear and caribou. I believe it'll be marvelous in Africa. Here's the bear (8.5', 26.75" skull).
View attachment 420491

Impressive!

Please tell her congratulations, one of these is on the bucket list. One day!

 

[Tra3]

@2L8 so, the slippery slope here is if you modify one thing, then the next, etc. soon it will be a $1500 rifle and that doesn’t seem the goal of your project. I’m curious to see if it works with near zero modifications. Do you set a limit on upgrades/modifications (including gunsmith fees)? If so, how much? $100?
But, if you are going to change anything, my vote is a scope upgrade.
The other amusing concept, with factory ammo costs as they are today, you’ll spend, nearly the cost of the rifle to find that perfect combo!

 

[rdog]

Okay guys I've been called on my hypocrisy. It's been pointed out to me that when I criticize some of the cheaper offerings it's often based on brief impressions and opinions. I don't have sustained experienced with the items in question. As a result I have purchased a new rifle to deer hunt with. The selection process was very rigorous (ie the cheapest combo available on Cabela's website)

Savage Axis XP Camo
.308 Winchester
Weaver Kaspa 3-9x40
Weaver Aluminum Rings
$259.97 after Rebate

If the rifle feeds, fires, extracts and ejects 100% during sight in and ammo selection and the scope takes and holds zero I may be forced to actually hunt with It.

Any one want to lay odds of it surviving the preseason prep?

Anyone want to lay odds of it surviving the season?

PS Our firearms season is three months long.

The scope & mounts may let you down nothing wrong with the rifle.

 

[machinistbutler]

I have a couple in 25/06, shoot great function. Fine.

I had a primer blow on one which rendered the tiny little spring plunger ejector useless.

On of the reasons I am a firm believer in a CRF rifle with a fixed blade ejector for hunting anything that may fight back.

Would have been a bad jam if I had to reload quickly, and I won't trust that system ever again after seeing first hand what happens.

After some work was able to get the plunger ejector out, replaced the spring and it works fine again.

Awesome whitetail rifles that shoot lights out. Not for me for bigger stuff.

 

[Zambezi]

I think to be fair almost any rifle will have some niggles. Would one say the CZ550 is rubbish just because it has some feeding issues? No I wouldn't think so.... so with the Savage I would say the issue of the trigger is a fair upgrade.

If the stock flexes or the safety disengages etc etc then I'd agree maybe it's a good "base" but requires serious work to get it to where it needs to be. Then the +- $280 combo can't be considered acceptable if it requires an additional $500 to get it "acceptable".

 

[2L8]

@2L8 so, the slippery slope here is if you modify one thing, then the next, etc. soon it will be a $1500 rifle and that doesn’t seem the goal of your project. I’m curious to see if it works with near zero modifications. Do you set a limit on upgrades/modifications (including gunsmith fees)? If so, how much? $100?
But, if you are going to change anything, my vote is a scope upgrade.
The other amusing concept, with factory ammo costs as they are today, you’ll spend, nearly the cost of the rifle to find that perfect combo!

I'm going to hunt it as stock as possible. It will only get mods if I believe they are absolutely necessary (IE a 9 lb trigger, actual verified issues with mounts or scope, actual stringing contributed to stick, etc).

All I plan to do initially is prep the scope base and mounts, check the action screws and clean the rifle and bolt.
Base Screws (6-48) - Blue Loctite - 15 in lb
Cross Bolts - 30 in lb
Cap Screws - 15 in lb

If I am forced to attack other areas this is the plan.

Trigger - $1.00 spring and over travel bolt from Ace Hardware.

Mounts - $10 Leupold Rifleman (I've had good luck with these on lighter scopes and non-magnum calibers).

Stock - Epoxy and scrap carbon fiber arrow shafts.

Scope - These are the budget scopes I have floating around that I bought for roughly $100 price. (Trying to stay true to the spirit of the project.)
Sightron S1 3-9x40 - $80
Vortex Crossfire II 3-9x40 - $90
Leupold VX1 2-7x33 - $119
Sig Sauer Whiskey 3 3-9x40 - $120

 

[fourfive8]

IMO, hypocrisy is not the best word to describe an avoidance reaction. I just never warmed up to the Savage designs. Hypocrisy means saying one thing while doing something else. Or buying and using the cheapest gun on the market while promoting the high end stuff like a big shot.

I did buy a new Savage bolt gun once. A 223 Rem- IIRC $129 in about 1985? Rationale... it was to be a beater truck gun for coyotes. Hah! Cheap construction, even cheaper stock, cheesy design, chunky trigger and poor accuracy... cured me of that plan in short order. sorry

I guess they can provide a level of utility at a price point. And some even have a reputation for accuracy. I know of a few that are pretty accurate out of the box. Some local competitive shooters back in the early 2000s jumped on the Savage accuracy bandwagon for a while, very short while None chased that zephyr very far. Easily surpassing the Savages with more universal, easier to work on custom actions, triggers and barrels. The more pedestrian method was: buy a beater short action Rem 700, get a high end barrel reamed to custom specs, blueprint the barreled action and bed the stock.

 

[whatjeffhunts]

I sell firearms for a living, and just because a rifle is more expensive doesn’t mean it’s going to shoot better or be more reliable then a “budget” rifle. I have a Ruger American 308 I bought for $329 with a $130 Nikon Buckmaster scope 8 years ago, and they go through the same hole at 200 yards. Every. Time.

 

[2L8]

I sell firearms for a living, and just because a rifle is more expensive doesn’t mean it’s going to shoot better or be more reliable then a “budget” rifle. I have a Ruger American 308 I bought for $329 with a $130 Nikon Buckmaster scope 8 years ago, and they go through the same hole at 200 yards. Every. Time.

I've had less than perfect success in the past with some of the lower cost rifles and especially low dollar Chinese scopes.

A friend bought a Remington 770 with a no name scope (Looks.like a Bushnell Banner) a few years and over a dozen deer ago for his son and other than tightening the scope bases/mounts and removing the sealer goop and adjusting the trigger it's still just as delivered. He was kidding me about just how much actual shooting experience I had with the newest generation of budget rifles.

I went with the Savage Axis XP .308 Win because it was the cheapest available combo, has enough recoil to put a reasonable load on the scope and is currently the most available cartridge in hunting loads.

I am not at all surprised that you have had good luck with the Ruger American with the Philippine built Nikon. However that would have felt a little to much like cheating in this case.

 

[MAdcox]

I certainly think the Ruger American + Vortex Crossfire II Combo might be a better gamble for someone that needs a budget rifle but this is more of an experiment and it's not like I don't have backups.

I bought my son the Ruger American ranch rifle and topped it with the Vortex scope.
I love the Vortex scope- it is to me, what the old Leupold VXI or VXII was. $300 plus/minus and great quality.
As for the rifle- I hate the bolt, get along ok with the trigger, but it shoots lights out. 1/4 to 1/2 inch groups on the three types of ammo we have found to feed it so far. The bolt feels sticky and rough, but my son hasn't ever shot my Kimber so he doesn't know the difference and handles it just fine. The trigger isn't bad at all, and most importantly Ruger spent its money on rifle barrels in this $500 rifle. It is a great beginner rifle and would be a handy "truck" gun while I'm feeding cattle all winter. Lethal on coyotes and hogs so far.

 

[chonk34]

I bought a cheap Savage last year as a deer/antelope gun. The magazines wouldn't seat fully and the bargain-bin scope that came mounted on it would only occasionally adjust when I turned the knobs. After multiple failures to feed at the range due to the magazine-seating issues I chucked it into the safe, took another rifle on my deer hunt, and bought something else this year.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Okay guys I've been called on my hypocrisy. It's been pointed out to me that when I criticize some of the cheaper offerings it's often based on brief impressions and opinions. I don't have sustained experienced with the items in question. As a result I have purchased a new rifle to deer hunt with. The selection process was very rigorous (ie the cheapest combo available on Cabela's website)

Savage Axis XP Camo
.308 Winchester
Weaver Kaspa 3-9x40
Weaver Aluminum Rings
$259.97 after Rebate

If the rifle feeds, fires, extracts and ejects 100% during sight in and ammo selection and the scope takes and holds zero I may be forced to actually hunt with It.

Any one want to lay odds of it surviving the preseason prep?

Anyone want to lay odds of it surviving the season?

PS Our firearms season is three months long.

@2L8
Mate it will last all you want to throw at it and surprise the hell out of you with the accuracy. My Savage is the even cheaper version called the Stevens 200/ old Savage 110. In its original guise it would put 5 110gn VMax into 0.3 inches at 100 yards in 270 cal. That rifle is now my 35 Whelen that is still going strong and extremely accurate. When it comes to feeding it feeds like a newborn baby.
You are in for a big surprise my man.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

1. I suspect the newer models have fixed the safety issue. I will certainly check it
2. I've read reports of 7-9 lb on early models but have heard new ones are around 4-6 lb I'm going to try to use as is but will resort to a slight shortening of the spring or replacement if it's required.
3. Good to hear. I had heard rumors the Kaspa was suspect.
4. Going to try to use the stock as is (It's the new improved design) however if I have issues with stringing I will certainly do some bedding and epoxy some carbon fiber arrow shafts in to stiffen the forend.

I certainly think the Ruger American + Vortex Crossfire II Combo might be a better gamble for someone that needs a budget rifle but this is more of an experiment and it's not like I don't have backups.

I mostly shoot culls these days so it's not likely to be critical if I miss out on a shot because of an equipment issue.

@2L8
From memory the axis has the Savage accutrigger that can be adjusted down to 2 pound.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Bundy Rum?

@crs
Bundy RUM is a RUM made in Australia in Queensland at a town called Bundaberg. This is shortened to Bundy.
Hence the name Bundy RUM. One of the words great drinks.

 

[Graham Hunter]

@crs
Bundy RUM is a RUM made in Australia in Queensland at a town called Bundaberg. This is shortened to Bundy.
Hence the name Bundy RUM. One of the words great drinks.

Don't know about that. Seems to have a strange effect on non Aussies.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I sell firearms for a living, and just because a rifle is more expensive doesn’t mean it’s going to shoot better or be more reliable then a “budget” rifle. I have a Ruger American 308 I bought for $329 with a $130 Nikon Buckmaster scope 8 years ago, and they go through the same hole at 200 yards. Every. Time.

@whatjeffhunts
I wouldn't have a ruger American If'n you gave it to me. The reason is a gent at my local range bought one in 243. Second shot at the range and the bolt handle broke off after the second shot. It was replaced under warranty with another new rifle. Dam thing didn't even fire the 1st shot. The bolt handle broke while chambering the first round.
Enough said
Bob
I was there to see it first hand on both occasions as he was on the bench beside me

 

[putter97127]

I went down your path a couple of years ago. I wanted a new rifle, but the bank account was broke. I bought a Savage Axis with the plain trigger and no scope in 223. I got it home and noticed that the forearm of the cheap plastic stock was severely warped and pressed hard on one side of the barrel. I also happened to notice that the stone on my bench grinder was the perfect size to true the barrel channel. There may of been a liitle booze involved in the decision to do a little grinding on a brand new gun!.... After sitting for hours in front of the tv cycling the bolt and dry firing on snap caps, it now is very smooth and extremely accurate. I mounted an old Leopold 2-7 scope that I had in a drawer in the cheapest mounts I could find. It's definitely not a heirloom rifle and I find it ugly as sin, but its currently my favorite rifle for varmints and plinking. I bet yours will surprise the heck out of you

 

[CoElkHunter]

I've had less than perfect success in the past with some of the lower cost rifles and especially low dollar Chinese scopes.

A friend bought a Remington 770 with a no name scope (Looks.like a Bushnell Banner) a few years and over a dozen deer ago for his son and other than tightening the scope bases/mounts and removing the sealer goop and adjusting the trigger it's still just as delivered. He was kidding me about just how much actual shooting experience I had with the newest generation of budget rifles.

I went with the Savage Axis XP .308 Win because it was the cheapest available combo, has enough recoil to put a reasonable load on the scope and is currently the most available cartridge in hunting loads.

I am not at all surprised that you have had good luck with the Ruger American with the Philippine built Nikon. However that would have felt a little to much like cheating in this case.

"a little too much like cheating". Yeah, stick with the program and put a Bushnell or Simmons on it. Maybe even a Tasco. No cheating allowed. Shoot a bunch of rounds and hunt several times with that combo and report back here. Ha! Ha!