Cheap Rifles and Hypocrisy

[akrifleman]

Seems really impractical for a general big game hunting scope. Who doesn’t “cant” their rifle sometimes when making a shot or hunts with the scope on maximum magnification?

I’m realizing that now. Unless your hunting mountain goats, sheep or prairie dogs with the scope at maximum magnification on a fixed tripod or bench rest where the rifle won’t “cant”, the BDC feature is useless. I’m going to use the center reticle only and sight it in so it’s on target from 100-300 yards, like every other scope I’ve owned.

That's my point, and why I'm not a fan of electronic scopes or BDCs. But, I use an electronic level with LED lights which I co-witness. It is mounted directly to my scope rings in the vertical position (I don't care for how far out horizontal mounts are). My eye can pick up if the lights are blue or red, indicating cant. If I see green, I'm level within a degree (or less, it can be adjusted). If I'm making snap shots under 300 yds, it isn't a big deal. If I'm shooting at more than 300 yds, chances are the animal is undisturbed and I have more time to settle in for the shot. But, I have FFP scopes with wind dots, and I practice with those setups at PRS matches frequently. So, on my LR hunting rifles, it isn't a matter of trying to figure out how the damn thing works. I really think the simple BDCs on 2FP scopes are nearly pointless. Most folks are better off with MPBR, and a bit of Kentucky windage.

 

[rookhawk]

Just to weigh in on the topic of sight levels. Unless we're talking about very high-dollar guns with absolutely trued actions, the levels are not reliable.

1.) The typical actions available like the Rem 700 and the savage are absolutely horribly out of spec. Taking a high-end mount and using dykem as a witness, you'd be shocked how wonky the actions really are. I had a $1200 Rem Ultimate Muzzleloader in stainless and I was shocked how terrible the 700 action was when i looked at several high-end bases that all teetered on the action.

2.) The levels themselves at the entry point to the product are not all that level. They use glue to insert the spirit level into stamped or inaccurately milled housings. The precision afforded is minute-of-big-red-barn at a few hundred yards.

So if you put 1 + 2 together above, you are stacking tolerances that don't match the bore and it throws all the subtension drops out of whack.

Obviously none of this applies to $3000 true actions plus $200 levels. But since the point of the thread in the OP was really about economy rifles, its not worth the trouble for the extra widgets that don't work so great.

 

[akrifleman]

Just to weigh in on the topic of sight levels. Unless we're talking about very high-dollar guns with absolutely trued actions, the levels are not reliable.

1.) The typical actions available like the Rem 700 and the savage are absolutely horribly out of spec. Taking a high-end mount and using dykem as a witness, you'd be shocked how wonky the actions really are. I had a $1200 Rem Ultimate Muzzleloader in stainless and I was shocked how terrible the 700 action was when i looked at several high-end bases that all teetered on the action.

2.) The levels themselves at the entry point to the product are not all that level. They use glue to insert the spirit level into stamped or inaccurately milled housings. The precision afforded is minute-of-big-red-barn at a few hundred yards.

So if you put 1 + 2 together above, you are stacking tolerances that don't match the bore and it throws all the subtension drops out of whack.

Obviously none of this applies to $3000 true actions plus $200 levels. But since the point of the thread in the OP was really about economy rifles, its not worth the trouble for the extra widgets that don't work so grea

Guilty and true. Mine are all custom and trued, and most my rails are milled in, or are of a high quality and extremely true (usually with 30MOA built in). My electronic level is gyroscopically stable in multiple axis, and is $230 without the Spur mount option. None of the levels on Amazon are accurate, due to plastic vs glass, and inconsistent arcs. They are not using anything remotely like a scientific level.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

@CoElkHunter I have a Vortex on my 7mmRM and really like it. However I’m not smart enough or care enough to figure out those reticles. I never have it cranked up to full zoomies either. I just keep my shots under 300 yards and use the main reticle like I have all my life. Works for me.

@Ragman
That's how I use the reticle on my meopta. Set at the lowest power for walking around. If I do get the chance of a shot over 350 yards at least I know what my reticle will do.
I still like the hold on hair not air philosophy. This give me a range of at least 400 yards with my 25 depending on game and projectile.
That's plenty far enough for me. Would like to try a 500 yard on a pig STANDING STILL AND BROADSIDE one day. That scenario is very rare tho because pigs don't read the game play rules.
Bob

 

[Ryan]

Say what you will about cheap rifles of many varieties but it just doesn't take that much to kill a deer. I shot one a couple of years back with a traditions trapper pistol. 20 grains of powder and a 50 cal round ball killed it immediately. Mississippi counts smokeless powder guns during primitive weapon season as long as they are single shot, 35cal or greater, and have an exposed hammer. I have hunted with a ton of H&Rs, CVAs, etc. Junk guns. They were all tolerably accurate, light, and reasonably well balanced. The triggers all sucked, but they killed just as well as the nice rifles I own.

They aren't a pleasure to hunt with and there is absolutely no romance to it but I'll bet your savage will shoot pretty close to 1 MOA and will kill as well as any other 308 does. I probably wouldn't take it to combat, but the deer field isn't fallujah.

So out of curiousity, does that mean Mississipi would allow a Thompson/Center Encore in 35 Whelen for that primitive season? It's got an exposed hammer and 35 caliber. Not exactly primitive, but whatever.

 

[CD24]

So out of curiousity, does that mean Mississipi would allow a Thompson/Center Encore in 35 Whelen for that primitive season? It's got an exposed hammer and 35 caliber. Not exactly primitive, but whatever.

Funny you should ask. Yes, Mississippi would. In fact, I tried on out last year. You could also use a 45-70, 444 Marlin, 460 S&W, etc. A slug gun, single shot 35Rem, or 44Mag are also popular choices. I agree that it is not primitive in the least, but this is Mississippi. I typically use a pedersoli flintlock but I cheat with a peep sight and sabots.

 

[Goose Cracker]

The other fly in the ointment with this Vortex scope, is the BDC feature only works on maximum power (9x)? So, if your at 6x, I guess you had better memorized the drop charts?

This is a key downside to using any BDC on a second-focal plane optic. When you change magnification, the distance on the corresponding "hash" on the BDC reticle changes as well. To effectively use a BDC you need to do some homework/use a ballistics app to understand the differences across the magnification spectrum. I use Stretlok, but there are others. The original Vortex LRBC with the reticle choices was excellent, but alas that is no more. I keep a cheat sheet with me under the buttstock ammo carrier on my rifle.

You need to practice with the BDC reticle on the range and verify everything. Then practice a little more. It definitely takes some time and effort to use one effectively.

This is also a key reason why LR shooters all use FFP optics.

 

[sgt_zim]

So out of curiousity, does that mean Mississipi would allow a Thompson/Center Encore in 35 Whelen for that primitive season? It's got an exposed hammer and 35 caliber. Not exactly primitive, but whatever.

IDK about Mississippi, but Louisiana sure does.

 

[Eventually_Africa_Again]

So, do we know how this experiment turned out? I went through @2L8 history and never saw a conclusion one way or another. Did the cheap rifle, with no modifications, "feeds, fires, extracts and ejects 100% during sight in and ammo selection and the scope takes and holds zero" or didn't it? Sorry if I missed the answer somehow, but as I said I took a look at all of their postings and never saw them answer one way or the other.