"Cheap" Hunts

[billc]

I think the point your all missing is some want to make more then others. Maybe loodt is happy paying the bills and making 500.00 a week instead of making 2000 a week. If the business pays for itself and has anything left it can run as long as someone wants it to.
As far as how anyone starts each person is different on maybe family land or family money. Maybe just hard work got them started with breaks coming there way for what ever reason.

The cheap hunt talk is nothing but a witch hunt on this site. The so called cheaper hunts guys offer get attacked by others because they see money going out of there pocket if they try and go after that same business. Then when the standard cheap hunt talk does not work all the other stuff gets throw at it to try and make it look bad.

The scary part to me is how so few outfitter hear what is be said on the thread of what guys are really looking for.It is just keep bashing on the few so we can make more and the hunters will still come because they must.

 

[siml]

The scary part to me is how so few outfitter hear what is be said on the thread of what guys are really looking for.It is just keep bashing on the few so we can make more and the hunters will still come because they must.

Billc, I don't think you correct with that statement. If we didn't listen to what a client is looking for, we would be out of business. Which "few" are being bashed??

 

[Patrick R]

billc

Fair ENOUGH and it might be in some cases!

NOT focused and generalizing on cheap hunts only...i also have and advertise cheaper hunts!...in my eyes there is nothing wrong with it,...IT'S BUSINESS...good for you, but there is a difference meaning to when doing 'cut throat' business...this is not good for the envrionment and also for the business...well not for a very long time!

 

[billc]

Billc, I don't think you correct with that statement. If we didn't listen to what a client is looking for, we would be out of business. Which "few" are being bashed??

I am talking mainly SA outfitters. You are in an area were you can not offer that may option on lodging and food. Your place is different the SA I believe.

My point is more on that guys from the states are looking for more simple lodging and reg. food. Hell if someone offered it you would find plenty of guys who would tent and cook there own food just to save that and hunt. We don't all want 5star lodging and food was my point. Not saying guys need to go after that business either just stop crying when guys do.

Not everyone is bashing only a few but cheaper hunts in general. Ct safaris comments were directed at Pieter and loodt just not man enough to spell it out is all.

 

[billc]

billc

Fair ENOUGH and it might be in some cases!

NOT focused and generalizing on cheap hunts only...i also have and advertise cheaper hunts!...in my eyes there is nothing wrong with it,...IT'S BUSINESS...good for you, but there is a difference meaning to when doing 'cut throat' business...this is not good for the envrionment and also for the business...well not for a very long time!

Bushwack that is splitting hairs really. If you do lower cost hunts at all someone may feel that is cut throat. As a business you can not worry about another business and do what is best for you. I don't see offering special to guys on this site at great prices as cut throat at all. Not everyone who books hunts comes to this site and gets the offers on here.

Cut throat to me would be an outfitter asking well give me your best quote and I will beat that.

 

[Patrick R]

...Cut throat to me would be an outfitter asking well give me your best quote and I will beat that...

'horse trading'is what i call it...and damn, yes, still happens a lot...


how would you know it is the best for your business? Because your clientele have grown? it is not always the best to 'buy out' your competion you know...but yes, business is business...

 

[billc]

'horse trading'is what i call it...and damn, yes, still happens a lot...


how would you know it is the best for your business? Because your clientele have grown? it is not always the best to 'buy out' your competion you know...but yes, business is business...

I think you find out what is best for you by trail and error. Finding the clients you want to go after and being good at taking care of those clients. Giving them the max you can and still make a profit. If you book guys for 3 stars give then 3 star or better. If you book 5 star you better not be doing 4 star.

I think instead of telling clients what you can give them ask what they are looking for. Then make it clear if you can or can not do that. Telling a client I don't do 3 star services but hey I can give you 4 star at just a little more and this is what you get for that. Instead of looking at the client like he did wrong like some like to do.

Look at it like he needed a lower price hunt to enjoy his dream not that he took a cheaper hunt. Any outfitter who thinks they help themselves by coming after hunters who book what they think is cheap is hurting themselves long term. Asking the right question by outfitters is always good but putting down something because you dont want to do it. That just a bad look I believe.

 

[TokkieM]

@Tootabi Hunting Safaris big words from a young man. Unfortunately not everything can be learned or taught by watching others, that would be immetation and somethings you only learn the hard way.

If however things are working for you and you are happy to have a Outfitting business as a hobby good for you. If like by your own admittance you hunt to break even you are not planning to expand the business or to ensure its long-term survival. You are then also not putting back what you take off from your property or restocking the gene pool or expanding it. Now that does not make good business sense either.
That has nothing to do with cheap hunts, sell at whatever price you feel happy with and oils the gears to keep them running.

I don't mind anyone selling cheaper hunts,under cutting prices or targeting a specific market. Whatever makes their clients happy and keeps them in business can't be bad. What I do mind is if cheap hunts lead to poor management principals as far as game and concessions are concerned. At the moment things work kind of like this (please correct me if I am wrong). The concession in the EC are mostly large tracts of open land, no high fences. Some are Bavarias. Now client A booked a cheap hunt with a Outfitter and client B a avarage priced package with another Outfitter in the same area. Both of them will hunt Kudu in the same concession but pay two different prices (same quality trophy Billc). Client B's Outfitter however realizes that you can only take 5 trophy Kudu in the area each year before you are negatively impacting the species. Therefore he only sells 3 Kudu trophy hunts in that area each year and asks a fair price. Client A's Outfitter sells as many as he can with no regard to the sustainability of the species or the area, eventually taking trophies that are not on par with the other Outfitter's. Now it does not take too long before that concession is considered shot out and another one has to be found and the process repeats itself. That to me is the problem with cheap hunts if you cannot put something back of what you keep taking.

I can understand that if in the near future land owners in SA will be selling their concessions each year to the highest bidder and not throw them open like now. That would certainly make Outfitters take more care of what and how many they take off each year, but that's another discussion on its own.

 

[siml]

HHS, nicely stated, good points, Tootabi I think HHS, just being logical and helpful.

 

[JGRaider]

Don't think cut throat business practices are anything unique to African hunting. Same thing happens here in the USA. I found CT's comments to be a bit arrogant, and Bushwack commenting on anything regarding moral principles is laughable IMO. When things go bust in our business climate, the strong figure out how to survive for another boom.

 

[rookhawk]

Sidebar point here to cause scandal while speaking truth. In South Africa, as a conservationist, who cares if someone overbooks or over harvests your example Kudu. Feel free to take and not give back, pillage the land, etc.

What have you done? Nothing different than going to Wisconsin and culling a herd of Holsteins.

Once a fence is erected you've bifurcated wild resources from wild habitat. No matter how much we enjoy the hunt it is biologically no longer wild and the animals are no longer wildlife in the natural world. It will then Require man managing the land; managing the predator prey relationship ", etc.

From a biology and wildlife conservation standpoint the arguments of cheap hunts and bad PHs harvesting too much from behind certain fences is not a concern for wildlife conservation, it is a concern for farming and business P&L and sustainable business practices.

I find people give way too much value to Fenced resources. They are not wild, they are not in the public trust, they are private property to be handled as the owners see fit. It is of no significance to wildlife if everything behind a fence is exterminated because it is no longer wildlife and Darwin does not control the resource, man does so for profit.

If someone pays to kill everything behind the fence they will either bring more in to create a sustainable business or they will be out of business. In either case it has no bearing on nature, wild habitat or natural wellbeing of a non-subjugated resource.

@Tootabi Hunting Safaris big words from a young man. Unfortunately not everything can be learned or taught by watching others, that would be immetation and somethings you only learn the hard way.

If however things are working for you and you are happy to have a Outfitting business as a hobby good for you. If like by your own admittance you hunt to break even you are not planning to expand the business or to ensure its long-term survival. You are then also not putting back what you take off from your property or restocking the gene pool or expanding it. Now that does not make good business sense either.
That has nothing to do with cheap hunts, sell at whatever price you feel happy with and oils the gears to keep them running.

I don't mind anyone selling cheaper hunts,under cutting prices or targeting a specific market. Whatever makes their clients happy and keeps them in business can't be bad. What I do mind is if cheap hunts lead to poor management principals as far as game and concessions are concerned. At the moment things work kind of like this (please correct me if I am wrong). The concession in the EC are mostly large tracts of open land, no high fences. Some are Bavarias. Now client A booked a cheap hunt with a Outfitter and client B a avarage priced package with another Outfitter in the same area. Both of them will hunt Kudu in the same concession but pay two different prices (same quality trophy Billc). Client B's Outfitter however realizes that you can only take 5 trophy Kudu in the area each year before you are negatively impacting the species. Therefore he only sells 3 Kudu trophy hunts in that area each year and asks a fair price. Client A's Outfitter sells as many as he can with no regard to the sustainability of the species or the area, eventually taking trophies that are not on par with the other Outfitter's. Now it does not take too long before that concession is considered shot out and another one has to be found and the process repeats itself. That to me is the problem with cheap hunts if you cannot put something back of what you keep taking.

I can understand that if in the near future land owners in SA will be selling their concessions each year to the highest bidder and not throw them open like now. That would certainly make Outfitters take more care of what and how many they take off each year, but that's another discussion on its own.

 

[TokkieM]

@rookhawk I have yet to see a low fence that keeps a Kudu inside. These Bavarias don't have high fences.
On a side note the Kruger National Park has a fence too, guess that also means nothing as a concervation area You should tell that to the SA Government that keeps trying to protect the species in there.
Happy Holstein hunting

 

[Velo Dog]

Next;

I hunt in most of the Southern African countries with clients. In every country there is something unique about the hunting experience. I personally cannot choose and put one above the other. Standing at the shows there is always without exception one question that comes up.

Is the area high fenced?

In South Africa we are high fenced, period. Even our national parks are high fenced. From 4 million ac to 500 ac are high fenced. We are the spearpoint of conservation. Through high fence be have prevented a number of species from going existing. Please do not misunderstand me, I agree, a 200 ac plot is not hunting. It is you as hunters that are preserving our wildlife for generations to come.


My question Today.

Is the high fenced areas such a big problem.

Hi Numzaanstef,

High fenced hunting areas do not bother me in the slightest, as long as the land is large enough and wild enough to have self sustaining populations of game and large enough for some tourist like me to potentially be pulled down by lions if I was not careful, or perhaps worse yet, become thoroughly lost on the land without a local guide.

What would put me off is if I could ride clear to the other side in only a few minutes and / or if I found out I was "hunting" pen raised animals, replaced by specific species as the prior one like it is taken, etc.

I see nothing immoral about that sort of thing because it is really no different than paying customers wanting to get fresh farm chickens, cattle and sheep, and the Farmer points out which ones are for sale.

However, it is just not my thing.

Fence or no fence, I want the animals to be wary and have an excellent chance to outwit the Tracker, PH and myself.

That factor is exactly why I have never gotten a shot at an Nyala in 3 safaris to their mile after mile of bushy riverine habitat, however fenced it may be but, instead have only seen several fleeting glimpses of mature bulls each time - It is fair chase and I love it.

The human mind among people descended from long standing industrialized cultures has a quirk in this regard.

It automatically tries to compartmentalize information received with pictures, it strives to show us "whole pictures".

For most of us that means that our brain has to shrink the picture (Nikola Tesla and John Moses Browning are two noted exceptions) in order for us to see everything at one time.

This results in the words, "fenced land" giving us a false picture as to how truly huge some of the land holdings are in Southern Africa, it is very deceiving until one actually spends several days or even weeks wandering around on it.

In person, some of these holdings seem to go from one side to the other over the curve of the earth.

When I hear talk of a "game fenced property", my feeble brain cannot envision anything very large in hectares or acres, for instance I am incapable of visualizing 50,000 hectares with a high fence around it.

In fact, as I type this, it doesn't even sound like an African wild hunting paradise, it sounds more like someone's dairy farm near Vacaville California, a short drive east of San Francisco.

However, 50,000 high fenced hectares in the right location in Africa would be and has been at times, my great delight to wander about on, with rifle, binoculars and good company, also sometimes instead with a shotgun or fly rod.

In person it is massive but in words "high fenced" makes it sound so small.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.

 

[ChrisT]

Well now chris (ct safari)since you like to use me as your points on pricing. I will give you some facts on why I went were I did. Reason I did not use same outfitter is I wanted to see new areas. Ask for another quote from you because first one was old and wants were different and you hunted the area I was looking at. Yes at the time my son was 13 or so and I told you what others offered for my son. Never told you pricing or said if you did this I would book with you. I told you some were giving me a break for my son. I said about the lodging and meals because I did not want the fancy stuff just plain and simple with good hunting. Also told you about not wanting fancy because I heard from you how much things cost over and over. Funny part was when I told you that part then the cost of food and lodging was not that much and really would not change the cost to me. But then I was only hearing you talking about how much stuff cost. I wanted you to know I was not asking for a cheaper rate but still thinking I was going to get the same lodging or food of the people paying more.

Why I booked with Pieter and loodt is because I hit it off with them both. Did not think they were better or worse then you just had that good feeling about hunting with them. If all goes well I will be one of the reason paw print grows and I am glad to help him. Will his prices go up maybe maybe not time will tell.

Will I hunt with another outfitter in africa again time will tell and I am not ruling that out even if I am helping paw print.

I have never booked a hunt and promised anyone they will be the only person I ever hunt with. So if not going to the same place over and over or spending my money were I want not loyalty to bad.

So you can add your cost up run your business as you want just done act like you care more then that some outfitters are taking business from you and making you play in a new game of pricing you dont like.

Now if you look at the quality of the animals myself and son took you will see I did not get less in that department.I had great ph's and great food and lodging also. Here is the best part saved a lot of money over your quote and had a great hunt.
As for your glad you did not book that cheap hunt. Well the more I see what you write I am as glad as you I did not do the hunt with you.

Now since you like to talk about cost so much why don't you become a sponsor of the site. Oh I know why you will just post the deals you cant do since your not a sponsor under a sponsor add a 1000 to the hunt and pass that on to us hunters.

Bill,

I don't think replying to all the points you raised will benefit anyone in this community.

You and everyone else are free to book with whoever you/they want. I don't feel threatened by those who offer cheaper deals than me and I don't feel threatened by those who offer "cheap" hunts. I'm also not sore about the fact that you didn't book with me - not at all.

I don't know what Loodt charges but I do know that Pieter charges substantially lower rates than what is market related - his choice and prerogative - nothing wrong with that... I don't agree with how he prices and told him that to his face (seeing you mentioned me "not being man enough"). But it is not for me to approve or disapprove how someone else runs his business.

I am entitled to my opinion though - and that is what I shared... I'm not part of any witch hunt, I'm not trying to convince anyone they're wrong and I'm not claiming that I am right.

Yes I will continue adding my numbers as numbers don't lie. And I will continue running my business the way I have and charge what I do because it has proven to be fairly successful. And I will occasionally offer discounted prices / packages (as I've done in the past) as this is indeed a way of filling up some empty dates or selling some extra quota.

This is a great site and I enjoy reading it. I am not a sponsor of this site by choice - a choice which is BTW not monetary driven. Jerome is aware of my reasons... I was "man enough" to tell him this privately.

It was not my intention to be arrogant as per Mr. Raider. I raised an opinion - nothing more and nothing less. Sometimes I might come across more strongly than what I intend and if I offended anyone I apologize.

Thank you and have a splendid day.

Chris

 

[rookhawk]

Please don't misunderstand my statements about fences or cheap hunts that may result in overharvest of trophy animals.

My point is based on the American model for wildlife management. That being, once a fence is erected and natural migration and predation are altered, and the resources become separated from wild evolutionary influences, they are not of the same "value" from a biology standpoint. From a conservation standpoint, it matters little whether they are extinct or in abundance once they become privately managed resources behind a fence.

That being said, there are other reasons to care about them such as preservation of hunting traditions and other personal aesthetics, but true wildlife principles and natura processes are not one of the justifications at that point.

DNA changes through selective breeding and through lack of choice in breeding alters the animals. The predator prey relationship is altered by a fence too.

I do not begrudge cheap hunts nor do I begrudge those that hunt happily behind those very fences, but I also don't care if they do not properly manage that bifurcated resource and its no loss to Mother Nature if the resource is consumed through poor vision of bad business people.

The second an animal is penned or fenced it is no longer wildlife. No matter how big the pen, it is not wildlife, it is property managed for the whims of its owners interests. Let them sell them cheap if that's their prerogative.

 

[TokkieM]

Rookhawk, thanks for the explanation

By the same standard then any settlements,developments,deforestation,roads and human proximity to wildlife or its habitat would by default make those animals useless as by your statement. Then Sir there are just about no true and worthy "wildlife" left in the world as man has set foot just about every were.
The moment you scare a animal in its habitat you have then advertantly altered its natural environment and made it redundant?

What about species that are known to have small home ranges and in their lifetime never leave that range?

Point taken and I respect your view on the subject,I just don't share it to the degree you do.

 

[rookhawk]

Hunthardsafaris,

To your point, yes, the alterations by man do indeed alter wildlife and yes, sadly there are few places "wild" left in the world.

The philosophy I espouse is not my personal opinion cooked up over a few beers, it's the modern wildlife doctrine as adopted by western science. It's why there is such a premium paid for wild hunting of wild resources under wild conditions. (Scarcity and costs of travel and transport)

I belong to a hunt club near one of the world's largest cities. It is 1400 acres of pheasant hunting. I pay to go kill Chinese chickens because I revere sporting traditions. That being said, it is absolutely not wildlife and it is not natural. We slashed and burned a forest, killed off the flora and fauna, grazed cattle, and then 100 years ago we planted beautiful non-indigenous trees and now we plant non-indigenous crops to feed the non-indigenous animals we shoot and eat at that locale. It's enjoyable, but it's not wildlife.

So in the same light if South Africans want to erect fences to portect their personal property and charge "cheap" rates to kill animals, that's their prerogative and is no different than doing the same thing with the same animal in Texas. Neither are conserving wild resources because both are there for the benefit of the owners of said property.

This is going a long way off track but the point remains that it is irrelevant to nature if hunts are so cheap that they kill too many or all of a species behind a rancher's fence. It's not part of the wild ecosystem anymore and becomes "none of our damned business" what happens to them and at what price point. The proprietors and PHs can have at it and we shouldn't judge their business practices with their own private property.

 

[TokkieM]

Rookhawk thanks again. Maybe I should state that a Bavaria is a conservancy that contain several properties of which none are behind a high fence. Thus the normal migration or escape routes are not blocked.
As for killing for profit I can only associate that with poaching.

 

[billc]

well chris for what ever reason you keep liking to use my comments or me to bring up cheap hunts I don't know why. If you don't care like you say why worry about what I did or will do in the future. If I did it or said it you can just say it was me no need to try and beat around the bush.

Now as far as cheap hunts go a buff(1o,000.00), sable(10,000.00) and giraffe(2500.00) and 10 (4500.00) hunting days for 17797.00 that sounds like a cheap hunt for those animals. But I guess it is not because it was with you so then it is all ok. Plus I guess there is nothing wrong with someone else trying to sell the hunt for you and adding over a thousand to the cost so it can post. Hell you can just add that cost to the hunter right. The fact is as long as you think the prices are right to help outfitters your ok with it. Let someone sell hunts priced with the hunters in mind also that is when it becomes cheap.

 

[ChrisT]

well chris for what ever reason you keep liking to use my comments or me to bring up cheap hunts I don't know why. If you don't care like you say why worry about what I did or will do in the future. If I did it or said it you can just say it was me no need to try and beat around the bush.

Bill, I don't recall that I ever used you or your comments on the topic of cheap hunts. Fact is that you are the biggest proponent of cheap hunts on this forum who weigh in with your opinion whenever the subject comes up and I might well be one of the biggest proponents of fairly priced (market related pricing)

It clearly is something we both feel passionate about for our own reasons. You're looking at it from a customer's perspective who wants to get the best bang for your buck and I'm looking at it from a service provider's perspective who has been makes a living from this for the past 12 years.

You have more experience being an African hunting client and I have more experience being a Hunting Outfitter in Africa.

To get personal about it here on the public forum as you're doing now is not beneficial to anyone.

Now as far as cheap hunts go a buff(1o,000.00), sable(10,000.00) and giraffe(2500.00) and 10 (4500.00) hunting days for 17797.00 that sounds like a cheap hunt for those animals. But I guess it is not because it was with you so then it is all ok. Plus I guess there is nothing wrong with someone else trying to sell the hunt for you and adding over a thousand to the cost so it can post. Hell you can just add that cost to the hunter right. The fact is as long as you think the prices are right to help outfitters your ok with it. Let someone sell hunts priced with the hunters in mind also that is when it becomes cheap.

Contrary to your thoughts / statements / insinuations about me feeling threatened by other Outfitters as I'm losing out on business because of them - I am actually more than willing to help aspirant Outfitters to get a foothold in the industry - which is one of the reasons I made some of my concessions and hunting opportunities available to a young man that I feel has great potential as Professional Hunter and Outfitter - the same young man whom I advised to reduce his prices when I saw his initial price list and thought it was out of line (too expensive)...

I did not make this available to him for personal financial gain and I didn't add $1,000 to my price so that it can "post". I made the offer available to him at the same nett price that I would pay for the hunt so that he can hopefully sell that hunt, outfit that hunt, gain some more experience in dangerous game hunting, get some more references and make some money for himself... He will require the services of a DG qualified PH to assist him in guiding that hunt and needs to make provision for this in his pricing. Are you of the opinion that $100 per day for a DG qualified PH is too much? Or should he absorb this cost into the package price so that he makes even less money on an already marginal profit line?

Bottom line is, regardless of how pricing was determined - at $19,000 for those three animals the hunt it is a steal and an excellent opportunity for a hunter who wants a Buffalo and Sable in a quality hunting area. The giraffe is for free - there is no charge for that...

I have no desire to continue with an argument with you here on the open forum or anyone else and I wish you a nice day.

Best regards,

Chris