"Cheap" Hunts

[Velo Dog]

Hello Numzaanstef,

The fellow I have hunted with the most in Africa (South Africa in this case) usually charges somewhere around average / "middle of the road" prices.

And, the only time I have seen him offer "cheap hunts" are when he has a cancellation hunt to sell or has culling available.

Although I am always interested in getting the most for my money, I keep going back to his camp, instead of booking with a less expensive / unknown to myself or my trusted friends type outfit.
"Familiar is safe" I guess.

Even though I can easily find "cheaper" hunts, posted all over the Internet and here as well, I know what I am getting by returning to a familiar camp, IE:
Leases totaling about 500,000 acres (144 sq miles?) that are abundant with multiple species of truly wild game, not "put and take" half tame animals.

The game there is born in the bush and subsists as nature intended (not born in a small kraal and nurtured by farm hands until mature enough to release shortly before being shot).

If that is not enough, he also offers some excellent bird hunts (rock pigeon, dove, guinea fowl, and francolin) plus excellent fly fishing for golden and rainbow trout up in the Drakensberg Mts.

I am interested in hippo on land (or possibly management elephant / tusk-less if my stubborn bum knee will heel properly some day) but my favorite PH cannot promise me a permit from year to year plus, he is quick to say that where he gets the occasional permit that, the hippos are very uncooperative about leaving the water very often.

So, I possibly will need to book with an unknown outfit for this that I can also afford and it makes me a little nervous ("fear of the unknown").

I guess what I am saying is that, I recon "cheap" hunts are probably not for me, (even though I am a penny pincher for sure).

Because with my luck, I'd end up on some tiny farm where the animals come trotting toward the vehicle, thinking you are there to feed them or, there'd be other unknown clients in camp that were problematic, the food would be bad, the PH's kids would steal something out of my hut, etc., etc., etc.

My answer to your question, ("Is the quality of the Safari less important than the price")
is "no", but I qualify that with, "I cannot afford top drawer Safaris either, such as Lord Derby Eland, Bongo, trophy elephant, etc."

Cheers,
Velo Dog.

 

[ScottG]

Cheap is you use it and throw it away. Shopping around for the best value for you money is just smart no matter how much money you make. You can find the same item on the web for lots of different prices's. Buying the one with the best price doesn't make you cheap makes you money.

I've always been in the mind frame, I'd like to sell a 100 for a $1.00 vs 1 for $100.00. You may have to sit a long time for the right person to come along. Make a good profit based on your inventory and sell the merchandise you have on hand. In Africa your inventory may not be there tomorrow.

 

[billc]

One thing if some of the Africa outfitters want to look at comparing hunting from the states to hunting there. It is not if your cheaper or giving more for the cost of an elk or deer. There is millions of hunters in the USA that will try and hunt here in the states and must will not get tags for were they want to hunt. Of the millions who hunt only a small % will get on a plane or even drive to go hunt even a few hours away. Then it is even a smaller % who will pay 2000 maybe more to fly 15 hours or more to go hunt what you feel will be a equal hunt to one here in the states.

If anyone thinks must guys will pay and fly to hunt Africa and take a kudu that would cost the same as an elk hunt in the states your crazy. Some outfitters are going to find out the usa market has limits and we are not just a unlimited pocket book. I have seen the trend already starting. Leopard ,lion ,buff and ele hunts that would be sold out years ahead come up now all the time at discounted rates. No they don't offer them cheaper till they see there going to get stuck with them. Then all of a sudden a 30,000 hunt can be done for 20,000. I am sure there not losing money or it would not even make sense to do the hunt. They are just not making what they thought they could.

 

[JGRaider]

I think if you compared the price of a plains game hunt in South Africa with the price of an elk hunt in North America, you'd find that the plains game hunt represents incredible value.

I agree, which is why I keep going back. However, after adding in the screwing and tatooing American hunters take on airfare, dip/pack/ship/clearing trophies back in US/shipping trophies to your home or taxi (not even including taxi charges)......the value is diminished substantially.

As with any business, the market will prove which marketing strategy succeeds.

 

[Albertaguy]

Good discussion here guys ! Here is my perspective. I am a middle age working guy that has a wife and three grown kids . I have decided to go to Africa on a safari for the first time (first guided hunt of any kind ). The first thing I did was set a budget for this adventure -about $ 10 000 . So after airfare dip and pack and shipping to Canada I figure I have about $6 000 to spend on the actual hunt . I am doing lots of research on the various outfitters to see where I can get the most bang for my buck. The most important things to me arn't a fancy lodge or a swimming pool I am looking for a quality experience and somewhere to soak in the African countryside. On this site I always check out the deals that guys like Tootabi, Wesfalen ,Paw print or Arc post. So I guess what I am saying is when dealing with a limited budget a cheaper hunt is sometimes the only way some people will get to hunt Africa.

 

[AfricaHunting.com]

Related topic: A little food for thought - Pricing on African Hunting Safaris: http://www.africahunting.com/thread...ght-pricing-on-african-hunting-safaris.19089/.

 

[LivingTheDream]

I think this is a great thread. I think there are some cheap hunts out there that are just that. But for guys like me, we are going to africa for the experience and not necessary for a fancy lodge or to have 5 star meals. Give me a tent, give me a cup of instant coffee, lets go. I am there mostly to hunt. However, if I was taking my fiance with me, obviously things change a lot. This is where I need the other things that make an operation above and beyond first class and realize I would have to pay for that. I would love to hunt dangerous game in Tanzania but it is never going to happen, but I can have a similiar experience in SA, Nambia or Zim. In my opinion, Tanzania, I think you are paying for the brand. I look at some of the specials that loodt and paw print post and my head almost explodes and I want to take a second mortgage to go over there and hunt immediately. Everything you hear about this guys is they run a first class operation and if they didn't they would be rake over the coals here. It is the same everywhere, I think would is driving the cost of hunts in Africa down is two fold, one the increase in the internet to which everyone can do a quick search. The other is the cost of importing, dip/pack, rifle permits, etc that just seem to eat up your budget. I mean how much sense does it make to kill an impala for 500, dip and pack and ship could cost more then that, not to mention rifle import. This extra costs that people talk about for africa are not on the outfitters but on every other part of the industry. This is why I would personnally rather dart a rhino and shoot a non exportable elephant. Did I have a trip of a lifetime...yes...did I avoid a ton of the headaches...yes. I wouldn't say I search for a cheap hunt but I definitely look around what is affordable and where I can get the most for my dollar.

I work in the consulting field and see low price competitors and I see the high priced name brands. I talk with my clients and they know they got garbage with the low price and regret it, the high price guys have their niche and it is due to their brand. Basically, it is what the market bears. The thing is usually people do their research and get the best value to their needs. It is no different for Africa and people figure out what their value is, no outfitter can expect to be everything to everyone.

As far as North America goes, it is becoming a rich mans game, but 7k to 10k for elk to me is crazy, sometime I will suck it up I guess, but even 3 to 4k for a decent deer hunt seems to be the going rate and it kills me, and I finally did book one of them. I saw Antelope for 2 to 3k and I am over it and will just got shoot does for a 60 dollar tag. The only thing I will save for in NA is sheep and that is because I caught the bug and it will never go away. I am just glad I found this site as it has truly opened my eyes to a whole new hunting world.

 

[dobber]

hmm interesting thread, so by my math a 7 day hunt would cost you the outfitter $1722 without whatever the costs of the animals are to you, so lets say you do a hunt for 4 animals, and for schits and giggles they cost you $500 each, we now put your cost at $3722, round it up to $4000, what is a fair market value for mark up on this? 10% too low in my opinion, you carry the risk, 25% fair, 50% on the high end. Lets not forget that even if you were the PH, that is profit as well as you would take the wages for doing such, and am sure most agree tipping should be included, so now add another 10% for tips, split between trackers/staff and the PH, think the PH gets the (pardon the pun), lions share so thats another $350 profit

Even gets crazier when the US dollar is at a high rate of exchange, all that extra revenue for doing nothing but cashing a cheque (and i know there is the flip side to this)

 

[numzaanstef]

Thank you friends I sincerely appreciate all the input. It seems that the general consensus is that we will not get away from "cheap" hunts from desperate outfitters that just want to say I booked so many hunters for the season and 2 years down the line being out of business. I urge hunters to please make sure that the HO has been in business for a number of years and has references that goes back at least a number of years.

Thank you to all the hunters that visit South Africa.

 

[numzaanstef]

Next;

I hunt in most of the Southern African countries with clients. In every country there is something unique about the hunting experience. I personally cannot choose and put one above the other. Standing at the shows there is always without exception one question that comes up.

Is the area high fenced?

In South Africa we are high fenced, period. Even our national parks are high fenced. From 4 million ac to 500 ac are high fenced. We are the spearpoint of conservation. Through high fence be have prevented a number of species from going existing. Please do not misunderstand me, I agree, a 200 ac plot is not hunting. It is you as hunters that are preserving our wildlife for generations to come.


My question Today.

Is the high fenced areas such a big problem.

 

[TokkieM]

It's a pretty high problem.

I understand that most of us want a true free range hunt, no fences no other people and no BS. To me the problem has come in with shorter Safaris and more animals on Safaris,this opened the door for high fence and of course more animals and species in areas that they would not normally inhabit.

I can also tell you that the biggest problem is the use of hunting trucks for almost every stalk on every species.
A fenced 4000HA can be just as challenging to hunt as a unfenced area if you leave the truck back at camp.

Sure you will find the put and take Outfitter, can't stop that. You are also fooling yourself if you think hunting Springbuck,Blesbuck and Black Wildebeest on a low fence area is free range hunting. They need to be pushed very,very hard before they will even try jump a fence or crawl under it.

As most with most things it will be what you want to make it. Trying to hunt a Blue Duiker on foot in 50HA of coastal forrest without using dogs can be a lifetime of hit and miss too. I have hunted both fenced and unfenced areas in SA. Both have their advantages and disadvantages, but both can be equally satisfying to hunt.

 

[siml]

hmm interesting thread, so by my math a 7 day hunt would cost you the outfitter $1722 without whatever the costs of the animals are to you, so lets say you do a hunt for 4 animals, and for schits and giggles they cost you $500 each, we now put your cost at $3722, round it up to $4000,

Dobber, lets help your maths out a bit.....you have not put all the factors into your equation!! What about all the other costs the outfitter has over the year? Wages/vehicles/marketing/insurances/maintanance/ just to mention a few.

Even crazier when I see an outfitter like your post, either he can't read or his maths is of the same standard as yours.

 

[buchnerl]

Thank you friends I sincerely appreciate all the input. It seems that the general consensus is that we will not get away from "cheap" hunts from desperate outfitters that just want to say I booked so many hunters for the season and 2 years down the line being out of business. I urge hunters to please make sure that the HO has been in business for a number of years and has references that goes back at least a number of years.

Thank you to all the hunters that visit South Africa.

@numzaanstef a very good read.

In the end I would say that this business (Tootabi Hunting Safaris) is to keep my life free from love of money, and be content with what I am given on a daily basis. Being an outfitter is merely living the dream, a dream of satisfaction, dream of sharing and the one of sharing God's kingdom with others.

Being desperate to gain more friends to share this magnificent country, experiences and wilderness with is my biggest pursuit in life and business!

To the conclusion I would like to add:

Proverbs 28:19-20 "Whoever works his land will have plenty of bread, but he who follows worthless pursuits will have plenty of poverty. A faithful man will abound with blessings, but whoever hastens to be rich will not go unpunished."

Matthew 6:33 "But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you."

 

[TokkieM]

@Tootabi Hunting Safaris nice contribution and spoken kindly.

I do however believe that without making money from hunting you can simply not do what you clearly enjoy doing. Any Outfitter has overheads and to continue to grow and develop the business takes time,effort,passion,blood,tears and unfortunately money.
No matter were we pitch ourselves in the market we all have a bottom line, some need to make more from less and others less from more. As long as you are making what you need to and you are happy while doing it good on you.

 

[Patrick R]

It's a pretty high problem.

I understand that most of us want a true free range hunt, no fences no other people and no BS. To me the problem has come in with shorter Safaris and more animals on Safaris,this opened the door for high fence and of course more animals and species in areas that they would not normally inhabit.

I can also tell you that the biggest problem is the use of hunting trucks for almost every stalk on every species.
A fenced 4000HA can be just as challenging to hunt as a unfenced area if you leave the truck back at camp.

Sure you will find the put and take Outfitter, can't stop that. You are also fooling yourself if you think hunting Springbuck,Blesbuck and Black Wildebeest on a low fence area is free range hunting. They need to be pushed very,very hard before they will even try jump a fence or crawl under it.

As most with most things it will be what you want to make it. Trying to hunt a Blue Duiker on foot in 50HA of coastal forrest without using dogs can be a lifetime of hit and miss too. I have hunted both fenced and unfenced areas in SA. Both have their advantages and disadvantages, but both can be equally satisfying to hunt.

@Tootabi Hunting Safaris nice contribution and spoken kindly.

I do however believe that without making money from hunting you can simply not do what you clearly enjoy doing. Any Outfitter has overheads and to continue to grow and develop the business takes time,effort,passion,blood,tears and unfortunately money.
No matter were we pitch ourselves in the market we all have a bottom line, some need to make more from less and others less from more. As long as you are making what you need to and you are happy while doing it good on you.

Yes, spot on!

Keep also in mind that NOT all of us inherit farms from their fore-fathers, some outfitters make use only of concessions, some outfitters are only the 1st generation on those farms...this is costly and is a big percentage of your overheads...As an Outfitter you have to make money to pay for this...

Even on my concession i only pay for board, lodging and trophy fees...nothing else...the farmer still have other entities to pay out of his overheads to affort 'hunting'!!We all do it for the passion of it, but it has to be operated as a business...

 

[Patrick R]

@numzaanstef a very good read.

In the end I would say that this business (Tootabi Hunting Safaris) is to keep my life free from love of money, and be content with what I am given on a daily basis. Being an outfitter is merely living the dream, a dream of satisfaction, dream of sharing and the one of sharing God's kingdom with others.

Being desperate to gain more friends to share this magnificent country, experiences and wilderness with is my biggest pursuit in life and business!

To the conclusion I would like to add:

Proverbs 28:19-20 "Whoever works his land will have plenty of bread, but he who follows worthless pursuits will have plenty of poverty. A faithful man will abound with blessings, but whoever hastens to be rich will not go unpunished."

Matthew 6:33 "But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you."

Loodt, Perhaps you still too young in the business... After 20 years in the hunting fraternity i still have 'your feelings'..., but lets be honest any Outfitter that has a registered business will feel different about this claim...

 

[buchnerl]

Loodt, Perhaps you still too young in the business... After 20 years in the hunting fraternity i still have 'your feelings'..., but lets be honest any Outfitter that has a registered business will feel different about this claim...

I might be young... what an advantage. I study seasoned outfitters like you as study material to know what to do and what not. After all you have paid the schooling fees over 20 years. I learn from your mistakes and try not to do nor be or become the same.

Only difference in this is thus that I have other sources of income than where you might only rely on outfitting as such. My Outfitting business is there to purely pay its expenses and in the long run roll $$$ in.

Further I would like to add that I "wish" I inherited farms from my fore-fathers as that would have been very generous. Being a young guy it takes more than just the average 8-5 job to pay the bonds on land acquired to boast successful hunts on.

Peace out!

 

[Patrick R]

I might be young... what an advantage. I study seasoned outfitters like you as study material to know what to do and what not. After all you have paid the schooling fees over 20 years. I learn from your mistakes and try not to do nor be or become the same.

Only difference in this is thus that I have other sources of income than where you might only rely on outfitting as such. My Outfitting business is there to purely pay its expenses and in the long run roll $$$ in.

Further I would like to add that I "wish" I inherited farms from my fore-fathers as that would have been very generous. Being a young guy it takes more than just the average 8-5 job to pay the bonds on land acquired to boast successful hunts on.

Peace out!

yes, the younger years...

Loodt, i like how you think and what you do...good for you!

BUT One think is for sure...you cannot substitute one business with / for another one, this is not sustainable and profitable at all! This type of business practise can only be for a short run as what has shown in the past...

 

[numzaanstef]

@numzaanstef a very good read.

In the end I would say that this business (Tootabi Hunting Safaris) is to keep my life free from love of money, and be content with what I am given on a daily basis. Being an outfitter is merely living the dream, a dream of satisfaction, dream of sharing and the one of sharing God's kingdom with others.

Being desperate to gain more friends to share this magnificent country, experiences and wilderness with is my biggest pursuit in life and business!

To the conclusion I would like to add:

Proverbs 28:19-20 "Whoever works his land will have plenty of bread, but he who follows worthless pursuits will have plenty of poverty. A faithful man will abound with blessings, but whoever hastens to be rich will not go unpunished."

Matthew 6:33 "But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you."

I hear you Tootabi, a man cannot live on love alone.

 

[dobber]

I used his numbers for the math with all his factors, and asked a simple question which was not answered, instead this is the reply
"It seems that the general consensus is that we will not get away from "cheap" hunts from desperate outfitters"

I could make the conclusion that certain outfitters are overpricing their hunts due to their inability to run a successful enterprise and trying to justify their prices with attacks on outfitters who have found a way to create affordable hunts, but i won't because that would be wrong and i don't have all the details

As for high fences it all depends on the size of the area fenced, and terrain, don't think there is a simple answer without knowing them factors