Can we please stop talking about "flat shooting" cartridges

[Doug Hamilton]

"Anyone who has problems with it needs to learn how to shoot." One of the main problems with the .243 is that people buy these for kids because they don't have much recoil. Kids are learning to shoot, and the result is more wounded deer. Then you have the issue of things going slightly wrong even for very experienced hunters. Anyone that says they are such good shooters that they never misplace a shot while hunting is lying.
Will a .243 kill a deer or even an elk with precise shot placement? Obviously, yes, it can be done with even smaller cartridges, but that does not make any of them a great deer cartridge? The .243 is a marginal deer round at best.

 

[Flewis]

"Anyone who has problems with it needs to learn how to shoot." One of the main problems with the .243 is that people buy these for kids because they don't have much recoil. Kids are learning to shoot, and the result is more wounded deer. Then you have the issue of things going slightly wrong even for very experienced hunters. Anyone that says they are such good shooters that they never misplace a shot while hunting is lying.
Will a .243 kill a deer or even an elk with precise shot placement? Obviously, yes, it can be done with even smaller cartridges, but that does not make any ofbthem

Very little room for error.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

243 is a great deer cartridge. Anyone who has had bad luck with it needs to learn how to shoot. It's good out to 400 plus yards. I had one for five years, then traded up to a 270 because I was guiding in grizzly country. Back then I thought the 270 Win was a cannon!

@colorado
The people I know that use them are great shots but use shit bullets that don't match the game. Their bullet worked once so it must be good but NO.
I had a mate yesterday telling me he uses a 75gn hollow point on pigs and I worked well. He thinks it hit harder at 200 yards than a good 95gn SST. You just can't tell some people.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

@colorado
The people I know that use them are great shots but use shit bullets that don't match the game. Their bullet worked once so it must be good but NO.
I had a mate yesterday telling me he uses a 75gn hollow point on pigs and I worked well. He thinks it hit harder at 200 yards than a good 95gn SST. You just can't tell some people.

So couldn’t these guys select a bad bullet for any particular caliber and get bad results too? It seems silly to blame the caliber for the poor choices of those that use them.

I know a gent here in Arizona who may very likely hold the record for most Coues deer, think smallish whitetail, ever taken. He’s a lifelong Arizona resident and had many years of multiple tags, versus now you need some luck to get even one.

He killed them all with his 6mm, virtually the 243 equivalent.

 

[Tbitty]

So couldn’t these guys select a bad bullet for any particular caliber and get bad results too? It seems silly to blame the caliber for the poor choices of those that use them.

I know a gent here in Arizona who may very likely hold the record for most Coues deer, think smallish whitetail, ever taken. He’s a lifelong Arizona resident and had many years of multiple tags, versus now you need some luck to get even one.

He killed them all with his 6mm, virtually the 243 equivalent.

Counterpoint is that a bad bullet in say 30-06 gives a lot more margin for error than even an OK or good bullet in 243.

I think everyone can agree that using the a good bullet, and/or with the gun in the right hands, it won't matter much what you're using. Wrong bullet or terrible shot, there may be no combination that ends successfully - but a big bore will definitely increase the odds of recovery.

 

[BRICKBURN]

After 22 Pages -- I guess not, would be the answer to the OP's question.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Counterpoint is that a bad bullet in say 30-06 gives a lot more margin for error than even an OK or good bullet in 243.

I'd say it depends on the game shot, the exact caliber in question and just how poor the bullet choice is. Give me a choice between a .300 Weatherby shooting a 125gr Nosler Ballistic Tip and a .243 shooting a 100gr Nosler Partition at a mule deer standing at 75 yards and I'll take the latter, shot placement being equal.

We can come up with who knows how many comparisons however and spin our wheels. I just don't see the point in bashing the .243 when it's used within it's limitations. I don't think anyone on AH would ever bash the .30-06, but if someone suggested on going to Africa (barring the legality of the situation) and using it for a Cape Buffalo, we'd collectively think they were crazy. That doesn't make the .30-06 a bad caliber does it?

Would I choose a .243 with a proper bullet choice over a .300WM also with a proper bullet to hunt an elk? No, I certainly wouldn't. That is taking a .243 beyond or at least very much stretching it's limitations and indeed is asking for trouble.

 

[Flewis]

Guys this is mostly joking with with Bob Nelson more than bashing the 243. If used in it’s limits it’s fine.

 

[Forrest Halley]

After 22 Pages -- I guess not, would be the answer to the OP's question.

@Bob Nelson 35Whelen is involved. This thread will revive itself after a three year dormant period.

Guys this is mostly joking with with Bob Nelson more than bashing the 243. If used in it’s limits it’s fine.

I thought everything from .243 whimpchester to 6.5 cuckold man was fair game here. There's nothing new under the sun. Let's all pick our favorite BDC(Bob Disturbing Cartridge) and arrange a big hunt in Australia. Bob could be our guide and save us from all things real or imagined with his fire breathing turdy-phive Weeel-un and a gross of Bundy.

 

[Flewis]

@Bob Nelson 35Whelen is involved. This thread will revive itself after a three year dormant period.

I thought everything from .243 whimpchester to 6.5 cuckold man was fair game here. There's nothing new under the sun. Let's all pick our favorite BDC(Bob Disturbing Cartridge) and arrange a big hunt in Australia. Bob could be our guide and save us from all things real or imagined with his fire breathing turdy-phive Weeel-un and a gross of Bundy.

I’m in!

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

So couldn’t these guys select a bad bullet for any particular caliber and get bad results too? It seems silly to blame the caliber for the poor choices of those that use them.

I know a gent here in Arizona who may very likely hold the record for most Coues deer, think smallish whitetail, ever taken. He’s a lifelong Arizona resident and had many years of multiple tags, versus now you need some luck to get even one.

He killed them all with his 6mm, virtually the 243 equivalent.

@PHOENIX PHIL
The 6mm may be the 243 equivalent if not a bit better but hasn't been flogged to death with bullshit advertising. When the 6mm rem came out the though was it wouldn't stabilize a 100gn bullet only a max of 95gn. Holy snappinduckshit batman 95gn will kill just as dead as 100gn but because it wasn't 100gn gun writers of the day almost killed off a cartridge that is superior to the 243 because of it.
The 6mm rem was and always will be better than the 243 but throw enough bullshit around and people will believe it. As you go up in caliber people tend to be more selective in projectile choices for game. A person that owns a 30-06 would pick a 110gn for deer but would use a 150gn. People are strange critters.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

@Bob Nelson 35Whelen is involved. This thread will revive itself after a three year dormant period.

I thought everything from .243 whimpchester to 6.5 cuckold man was fair game here. There's nothing new under the sun. Let's all pick our favorite BDC(Bob Disturbing Cartridge) and arrange a big hunt in Australia. Bob could be our guide and save us from all things real or imagined with his fire breathing turdy-phive Weeel-un and a gross of Bundy.

@Forrest Halley
Bring your BDSs to Australia mate and Bob will go to the US or Canada and hunt with @BeeMaa or @Skinnersblade while you play silly buggers out here.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha
Bob

 

[Tbitty]

I'd say it depends on the game shot, the exact caliber in question and just how poor the bullet choice is. Give me a choice between a .300 Weatherby shooting a 125gr Nosler Ballistic Tip and a .243 shooting a 100gr Nosler Partition at a mule deer standing at 75 yards and I'll take the latter, shot placement being equal.

I'm not familiar with the .300 Wby, but I use a handload 165 gr Nosler Balliatic Tip in my 30-06 with tremendous results. I'd take it over my 243 with any bullet you can name, no matter what the shot parameters are. In dozens of successful hunts on whitetail, feral hogs, and some other smaller critters, every shot has been 100% pass through, and a whole lot of trauma on its way through for the ones I open up. Went to the gutless quartering method a while back, so I don't always check the heart/lungs.

I don't think the ballistic tip in big calibers gets a fair shake on its actual terminal performance. But that's a different conversation.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

I'm not familiar with the .300 Wby, but I use a handload 165 gr Nosler Balliatic Tip in my 30-06 with tremendous results. I'd take it over my 243 with any bullet you can name, no matter what the shot parameters are. In dozens of successful hunts on whitetail, feral hogs, and some other smaller critters, every shot has been 100% pass through, and a whole lot of trauma on its way through for the ones I open up. Went to the gutless quartering method a while back, so I don't always check the heart/lungs.

I don't think the ballistic tip in big calibers gets a fair shake on its actual terminal performance. But that's a different conversation.

I think the Ballistic Tip is a great bullet when used within its limitations too. There’s no denying it is a frangible bullet. My use with them has been for Coues deer here in Arizona out of my 7mm REM Mag, 140gr variety. Only one was a pass thru, but that shot was to the neck. The other bullets were recovered, or at least pieces of it were recovered. Closest shot was 250 yards.

My 7mm by the way is my smallest caliber for hunting save for my .22LR which obviously isn’t used for deer or larger. So I’m not trying to defend the .243 against other calibers as a better choice, just that it has it’s place in the field. I’ve never had a .243 and likely never will.

 

[colorado]

A BDL in 243 was my first rifle, killed a lot of deer, javelina and one elk with it. Big game load was a 105g Speer spitzer at 3000 fps, varmint load was a Sierra 70g HPBT at 3400 fps. Accurate as hell sub .5 MOA. I sold it and bought a 270 when I moved to Montana. Still have that BDL in 270.

 

[rdog]

I’m in!

I am told Bobs new years resolution is to love the 243.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

A BDL in 243 was my first rifle, killed a lot of deer, javelina and one elk with it. Big game load was a 105g Speer spitzer at 3000 fps, varmint load was a Sierra 70g HPBT at 3400 fps. Accurate as hell sub .5 MOA. I sold it and bought a 270 when I moved to Montana. Still have that BDL in 270.

@colorado
Where the velocities for the 105gn book or actual chrono velocities.
I've loaded for a couple of mates 243s and could only just get 2,800 fps with 100 grainers snd Max loads.
The 87gn VMAX was flat out at almost 3,000fps with a max load of H4350/ADI 2209. These were actual chrono velocities out of 22 in barrels in 3 different rifles. Tikka, Sako a BSA Monarch and a CZ.
Very disappointing and all say that can't be right the book says different. Sorry folks the book like Winchester LIED.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I am told Bobs new years resolution is to love the 243.

@rdog
Have you been on the wacky backy mate cause someone lied to you.
Just like Winchester lied to the world.

 

[shootist~]

You need some better powder for the 243, @Bob Nelson 35Whelen
My 18.5" Sako carbine 243 gets 2,869 fps with Nosler 95s (not a hot load).
Powder is RL-17.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

I am told Bobs new years resolution is to love the 243.

Funny!