Can we please stop talking about "flat shooting" cartridges

[CoElkHunter]

Cost, most people don't burn barrels out. It is mainly comp shooter that do and as a percentage that is a small number. I'm not sure how that material would react to heat and pressure it might be to brittle, that is above my knowledge base.

$350.00 have a new blank, can have it in a lathe and ready to go in 3-4 hours all in. It is a small expense compared to what shooting a comp cost.

But, what would a gunsmith charge for that? Most can’t do it themselves.

 

[Inline6]

But, what would a gunsmith charge for that? Most can’t do it themselves.

You can buy prefits from 550-950 depending on blanks used and who does the work. It will be in that range for a smith to do the work.

That is my heart burn with my R8, the barrels are a little more than they should be.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

You can buy prefits from 550-950 depending on blanks used and who does the work. It will be in that range for a smith to do the work.

That is my heart burn with my R8, the barrels are a little more than they should be.

@Inline6
The military use chrome lined bores in their high volume barrels like machine guns to extend life.
There was an Australian company that did chrome lined 308 barrels guaranteed for 50,000 rounds.
Bob

 

[Forrest Halley]

You can buy prefits from 550-950 depending on blanks used and who does the work. It will be in that range for a smith to do the work.

That is my heart burn with my R8, the barrels are a little more than they should be.

Only a little? The big issue is just like the ammunition prices they are able to find a sufficient number of persons willing to pay such prices.

 

[Inline6]

@Inline6
The military use chrome lined bores in their high volume barrels like machine guns to extend life.
There was an Australian company that did chrome lined 308 barrels guaranteed for 50,000 rounds.
Bob

We were talking about tungsten carbide bores. I do understand some barrels have that life expectation, the part no one mentions is at what is the level of accuracy. If it is 4 moa well a lot of barrels will live a long time. If the goal is .35MOA and SDs in single digits, it's not going to happen.

People claim high round counts out of their barrels. They have different standards. When going to shoot a comp the average cost is 1k per match (PRS), that is the entry fee, hotel, fuel, ammo, restaurant. That was back a few years ago when I shot more often. Had a barrel go out on me in a match. It should not have, doing the math and shooting other barrels. It should have been another 500rds of life. It cost me about 4k worth of prize rifle. From then on when a barrel was close to a round count, it became the training barrel and a new match barrel was broken in.

Only a little? The big issue is just like the ammunition prices they are able to find a sufficient number of persons willing to pay such prices.

Well it does take a little more work on their barrels. The market is buying them so they keep charging it. My Model 70 in 416REM with a VX6 on it was way less than the R8 458 Lott barrel alone. I have seen a company that makes the barrel extentions for them, they are out of Russia. I have not even tried to order one. If I did have one, I would spin up a 7PRC for mine right now.

It is like a car, do you need a Mercedes to get you from A to Z? No, a Honda will do the same If you have the extra money to make it happen one does ride differently than the other. Packing for the next trip to Africa with a very short rifle case is going to make it worth it for me.

 

[B0MBOY]

frankly if you use a laser rangefinder who cares about drop. You’re shooting at a Known distance, if you know your holdovers (mine are all written in my flip up scope cap) aim, click, bang! As long as you don’t run out of scope FoV at an extended distance you’re all set.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

frankly if you use a laser rangefinder who cares about drop. You’re shooting at a Known distance, if you know your holdovers (mine are all written in my flip up scope cap) aim, click, bang! As long as you don’t run out of scope FoV at an extended distance you’re all set.

@BOMBOY
I personally don't like range finders but they do have a use.
I like simple .
Know your rifle hold on game, go bang and hopefully pick up game. My idea is hold on hair not air. If I have to hold on air move closer. I don't like thes dial up scopes, if you forget to reset scope after the shot your next shot can become a problem.
I tried this new stuff ONCE. By the time I ranged the animal, dialed in the scope and adjusted the parallax I did not get to fire the shot. No the animal didn't run off, the bloody thing died of old age by the time I was ready to shoot.
I like simple aim fire collect game. Simple.
Bob

 

[sgt_zim]

@BOMBOY
I personally don't like range finders but they do have a use.
I like simple .
Know your rifle hold on game, go bang and hopefully pick up game. My idea is hold on hair not air. If I have to hold on air move closer. I don't like thes dial up scopes, if you forget to reset scope after the shot your next shot can become a problem.
I tried this new stuff ONCE. By the time I ranged the animal, dialed in the scope and adjusted the parallax I did not get to fire the shot. No the animal didn't run off, the bloody thing died of old age by the time I was ready to shoot.
I like simple aim fire collect game. Simple.
Bob

For hunting, range finders have the most utility to me when I'm slinging arrows, not bullets. Inside 300 yards, I can aim at hair with any of my rifles.

 

[Inline6]

@BOMBOY
I personally don't like range finders but they do have a use.
I like simple .
Know your rifle hold on game, go bang and hopefully pick up game. My idea is hold on hair not air. If I have to hold on air move closer. I don't like thes dial up scopes, if you forget to reset scope after the shot your next shot can become a problem.
I tried this new stuff ONCE. By the time I ranged the animal, dialed in the scope and adjusted the parallax I did not get to fire the shot. No the animal didn't run off, the bloody thing died of old age by the time I was ready to shoot.
I like simple aim fire collect game. Simple.
Bob

@Bob Nelson 35Whelen you just need to practice more. Have engaged 10 different target from 200 - 1200yds 10 shots in 90 seconds. That is not bragging many people do it. I rather dial, adjust parallax and know where the bullet hits then get in the area. I'm not saying their is anything wrong with the way you do it. It works well for you. If I'm hunting and the animals of a lifetime walks out at distance. I have confidence in my abilities to take a shot given the conditions are right. I would not say the distance is the limiting factor, conditions are for myself. Ethics aside, I know many don't want to shoot an animal XXX yards away. I get that, I just would not pass up a shot that I'm confident in. Example when Elk hunting we were walking out on the 3rd day to go to a different unit. We met a couple hunters, they passed on an Elk at 600 yards. It was beyond their comfort zone. I would not have passed on that shot. They were local guys, we drove 24 hours straight to get there. They had time to go back and hunt at different times. We did not have that luxury.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

For hunting, range finders have the most utility to me when I'm slinging arrows, not bullets. Inside 300 yards, I can aim at hair with any of my rifles.

@sgt_zim
300 yards is far enough for us mere mortals. My fast 25 I can stretch it out to 400 and still be on hair but WHY.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

@Bob Nelson 35Whelen you just need to practice more. Have engaged 10 different target from 200 - 1200yds 10 shots in 90 seconds. That is not bragging many people do it. I rather dial, adjust parallax and know where the bullet hits then get in the area. I'm not saying their is anything wrong with the way you do it. It works well for you. If I'm hunting and the animals of a lifetime walks out at distance. I have confidence in my abilities to take a shot given the conditions are right. I would not say the distance is the limiting factor, conditions are for myself. Ethics aside, I know many don't want to shoot an animal XXX yards away. I get that, I just would not pass up a shot that I'm confident in. Example when Elk hunting we were walking out on the 3rd day to go to a different unit. We met a couple hunters, they passed on an Elk at 600 yards. It was beyond their comfort zone. I would not have passed on that shot. They were local guys, we drove 24 hours straight to get there. They had time to go back and hunt at different times. We did not have that luxury.

@Inline6
I know I can comfortably take game out to 400yrds with my 25,35 Whelen and sons 308. My 25 has a bdc reticle that I am learning to use it properly and on appropriate a I've game should have no worries to 600.
The reticle is a great feature and saves a lot of fiddling around
Bob

 

[Inline6]

@Inline6
I know I can comfortably take game out to 400yrds with my 25,35 Whelen and sons 308. My 25 has a bdc reticle that I am learning to use it properly and on appropriate a I've game should have no worries to 600.
The reticle is a great feature and saves a lot of fiddling around
Bob
View attachment 499668

I have a lot of concerns with reticles like that. If it is a SFP it will only work on 1 power range. If it is a FFP no worries. That reticle is also set up for a certain bullet (BC) going a certain speed, in a certain condition (I use DA to make the conditions 1 simple number). My expectation are 1/2 moa plates, I have done hold overs as most of my scopes have trees for reticles and are FFP scopes.

I'm not saying it won't work, I'm saying try it out. If it is a SFP scope your 300 yard hold will be different from low to hi magnification range. You might have a dot on the power ring to show the power that makes it correct.

That my friend is why I run LRF Binos that are linked to my Kestral. The Kestral will give the solution to the binos and you can read it in the glass. Dial up, fix parallax, and send it.

No trying to be a wise ass on this, unfortunately I have learned some lessons the hard way and if I can possibly keep someone from making the same one. I will at least offer the advice. I'm sure you probably know most of this.

 

[rdog]

I am not sure why, given modern sintering technology, that someone hasn't built a barrel sleeve in the correct configuration made of tungsten carbide. I mean the barrel would be stupidly expensive, but would last almost indefinitely if the sleeve was brazed into the bore of a chrome moly tube. Future investment idea anyone?

Cost, new conventional bbls would be much cheaper.

 

[Woodcarver]

I have a lot of concerns with reticles like that. If it is a SFP it will only work on 1 power range. If it is a FFP no worries. That reticle is also set up for a certain bullet (BC) going a certain speed, in a certain condition (I use DA to make the conditions 1 simple number). My expectation are 1/2 moa plates, I have done hold overs as most of my scopes have trees for reticles and are FFP scopes.

I'm not saying it won't work, I'm saying try it out. If it is a SFP scope your 300 yard hold will be different from low to hi magnification range. You might have a dot on the power ring to show the power that makes it correct.

That my friend is why I run LRF Binos that are linked to my Kestral. The Kestral will give the solution to the binos and you can read it in the glass. Dial up, fix parallax, and send it.

No trying to be a wise ass on this, unfortunately I have learned some lessons the hard way and if I can possibly keep someone from making the same one. I will at least offer the advice. I'm sure you probably know most of this.

BDC reticles are actually fairly simple to use. Nikon's have a ballistic app (Nikon Spot-on) for instance, where you can select your model of scope, then you can select from a pretty extensive list of factory ammo, or input your handload. It will give you the yardage values for any magnification that you select, for each of the circles, top, center and bottom. Haven't looked in to whether other manufacturers have a similar ballistic calculator set up for their version of BDC.
It's not hard to develop your own table using a tree style BDC by actual field use, even if you're limited to a 100yd range. Simply shoot a group with each level and use any of the online calculators to find the corresponding distance zero for each layer. Added bonus, more trigger time!
No restrictions or limitations to a single load at all. Just get different values for each extra crosshair based on the actual load being used.
If you learn your scope's sizing of the crosshairs for a given level of magnification, you can use the reticle as a range finder with a good degree of accuracy as well; just takes practice.
None of this comes into play unless you're looking to stretch a shot beyond MPBR, typically somewhere between 250-300 yards. Some of us prefer to just get closer.

 

[Inline6]

BDC reticles are actually fairly simple to use. Nikon's have a ballistic app (Nikon Spot-on) for instance, where you can select your model of scope, then you can select from a pretty extensive list of factory ammo, or input your handload. It will give you the yardage values for any magnification that you select, for each of the circles, top, center and bottom. Haven't looked in to whether other manufacturers have a similar ballistic calculator set up for their version of BDC.
It's not hard to develop your own table using a tree style BDC by actual field use, even if you're limited to a 100yd range. Simply shoot a group with each level and use any of the online calculators to find the corresponding distance zero for each layer. Added bonus, more trigger time!
No restrictions or limitations to a single load at all. Just get different values for each extra crosshair based on the actual load being used.
If you learn your scope's sizing of the crosshairs for a given level of magnification, you can use the reticle as a range finder with a good degree of accuracy as well; just takes practice.
None of this comes into play unless you're looking to stretch a shot beyond MPBR, typically somewhere between 250-300 yards. Some of us prefer to just get closer.

If you are staying inside of 300 yards yes you can get away with some of the stuff you are talking about. The problem comes into play when you sight the gun it at sea level then take an elk hunting trip at 9k. This is why I use DA for my shooting solution.

Let's take your example, you have a 4X12Xxx scope you run your drill at 100 yards. You are on your hunt and your game of choice walks out. 358 yards. You ran your drill on 9x because you did not want to be at max power. Well at distance you zoom to 12 because you want to make sure that do not see any obstruction between the both of you. You confirm, you have the cross hair right on him. Unless you back the power back down to 9 your bullet will not hit were you thought. My stance is, if you are going to go through the trouble of all that. Dail up and not be limited.

I get it 100%, I just killed a boar with my 458Lott at 15 yards a few days ago. Stalked up to him until I was out of cover. The closer the better. I also know if a 6X6 elk is across a canyon at 600+ yards away. I have the ability to make that shot, (if it was all kinds of crazy winds I would not take it, again my shots are based on conditions not distance). I'm not saying this way is the only way or the best way. Many people have been shooting longer than me with great success. This is my experience from shooting many field matches. I get why people want to get close, it is just as much if not more of a skill than shoot distance. I prefer to have both skill sets and practice them as much as I can.

 

[CBH Australia]

@Inline6 I like your closing. You are not trying to wise ass him or out do him.

I know Bob. He is an advocate of his Meopta scopes.

Myself I have a Meopta Meopro 4-12x50 with the BDC and my understanding it works on the highest setting for proper holdover. That's ok with me as the tough rule of thumb I was hoping for is sight it on 200 and have hash marks on 200, 300 for minute of pig.

 

[Inline6]

@Inline6 I like your closing. You are not trying to wise ass him or out do him.

I know Bob. He is an advocate of his Meopta scopes.

Myself I have a Meopta Meopro 4-12x50 with the BDC and my understanding it works on the highest setting for proper holdover. That's ok with me as the tough rule of thumb I was hoping for is sight it on 200 and have hash marks on 200, 300 for minute of pig.

I have a 1.7x10 on my 375h&h, the BDC is set at 6X. I tried it once on a animal another hunter hit to far back. After I missed the first round I took the cap off and dialed. Bullet hit where the crosshairs were aiming.

I am not familiar with the 4X12 model, it might be different. Mine has a dot on the power ring. Might be something for you to look into.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I have a lot of concerns with reticles like that. If it is a SFP it will only work on 1 power range. If it is a FFP no worries. That reticle is also set up for a certain bullet (BC) going a certain speed, in a certain condition (I use DA to make the conditions 1 simple number). My expectation are 1/2 moa plates, I have done hold overs as most of my scopes have trees for reticles and are FFP scopes.

I'm not saying it won't work, I'm saying try it out. If it is a SFP scope your 300 yard hold will be different from low to hi magnification range. You might have a dot on the power ring to show the power that makes it correct.

That my friend is why I run LRF Binos that are linked to my Kestral. The Kestral will give the solution to the binos and you can read it in the glass. Dial up, fix parallax, and send it.

No trying to be a wise ass on this, unfortunately I have learned some lessons the hard way and if I can possibly keep someone from making the same one. I will at least offer the advice. I'm sure you probably know most of this.

@Inline6
I understand your concerns mate.
The beauty of this reticle is its linked to meoptas ballistics calculator. You can pick the power you want to use and get the results you need.i always use 10x power.
You can also choose from a plethora of factory loads or you can input the data from your handloads with projectile bc, muzzle velocity and pick your primary sight in range.
The photo I posted was the result if 10x magnification, the bc of the 115gn nosler balistic tip and the chronoed velocity of 3,360fps. Scope height 1.8 inches and 2.5 inches high @100yds. The result is shown on a diagram of the reticle you just have to remember it.
Bib

 

[Inline6]

@Inline6
I understand your concerns mate.
The beauty of this reticle is its linked to meoptas ballistics calculator. You can pick the power you want to use and get the results you need.i always use 10x power.
You can also choose from a plethora of factory loads or you can input the data from your handloads with projectile bc, muzzle velocity and pick your primary sight in range.
The photo I posted was the result if 10x magnification, the bc of the 115gn nosler balistic tip and the chronoed velocity of 3,360fps. Scope height 1.8 inches and 2.5 inches high @100yds. The result is shown on a diagram of the reticle you just have to remember it.
Bib

10-4, we are both managing our situations differently and coming up with hits.

 

[shootist~]

Using reticle holds with 2nd focal optics is much more likely to get you into trouble than dialing. Yet many otherwise good scopes are just not set up (or not reliable) for dialing. My Swaro Z3 is a good example. I'm sure the higher end Swarovski optics are a different story.

For mid range (price and quality) I really like the Nightforce SHV 3-10x42 with Forceplex reticle. I really wish they offered that line in a 1x6.

The Trijicon Accupoint (1-6), in that same general price range is of similar optical quality, at least to my old eyes.