Can we please stop talking about "flat shooting" cartridges

[Inline6]

Using reticle holds with 2nd focal optics is much more likely to get you into trouble than dialing. Yet many otherwise good scopes are just not set up (or not reliable) for dialing. My Swaro Z3 is a good example. I'm sure the higher end Swarovski optics are a different story.

For mid range (price and quality) I really like the Nightforce SHV 3-10x42 with Forceplex reticle. I really wish they offered that line in a 1x6.

The Trijicon Accupoint (1-6), in that same general price range is of similar optical quality, at least to my old eyes.

My only complaint about NF scopes, mine do not seem to do well in low light. Atleast compared to European glass.

 

[shootist~]

My NF NSX 2.5-10x"32" is weak in the low light category. The two with 42 mm objectives are significantly better. I hunted plains game last year with the SHV 3-10x42 and had two kills at last light (with illumination) and two kills using 10x for longer range (250 Yds - Kudu & 300+ on Springbok). Very happy with it. No dialing was needed since I zero at 229 Yards (200M) - but the Springbok was a near miss (low).

 

[Inline6]

My NF NSX 2.5-10x"32" is weak in the low light category. The two with 42 mm objectives are significantly better. I hunted plains game last year with the SHV 3-10x42 and had two kills at last light (with illumination) and two kills using 10x for longer range (250 Yds - Kudu & 300+ on Springbok). Very happy with it. No dialing was needed since I zero at 229 Yards (200M) - but the Springbok was a near miss (low).

My 1X8 is not bad just not as good as my Zeiss 1X6. My 4X32 well you have to back the power way down in low if you hope to see anything not close to the PMIIs I have had over the years.

That is why I like to dial. Don't get me wrong people make it work. I also take it for granted how natural it comes to me. That involved many 1ks of rounds under time in a competition setting.

I have had several people ask me why I dialed in a comp setting, they viewed it as wasting time. My response was always I don't time out so why not. The truth is I watched many people miss by holding over. They get lost in the reticle or the distance and get a miss an then panic. 1 of 2 things would happen at that point look at notes to confirm the target and hold then run out of time. Or they would keep shooting til the last target and realize they got something out of order. Some people would recover, just not as many. That said I have seen people do the same thing dialing too. Have seen them forget to rezero their scope (I have been guilty of it more than once myself). Also seem a hell of a shoot run a H59 and would never touch his turrets.

All that to say, it you don't practice your method. You will not be a successful as you can be.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

10-4, we are both managing our situations differently and coming up with hits.

@Inline6
Using the same horse but different jockey. You may or may not understand our Australian saying.
8

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Using reticle holds with 2nd focal optics is much more likely to get you into trouble than dialing. Yet many otherwise good scopes are just not set up (or not reliable) for dialing. My Swaro Z3 is a good example. I'm sure the higher end Swarovski optics are a different story.

For mid range (price and quality) I really like the Nightforce SHV 3-10x42 with Forceplex reticle. I really wish they offered that line in a 1x6.

The Trijicon Accupoint (1-6), in that same general price range is of similar optical quality, at least to my old eyes.

@shootist~
If you have a collimator you can check you reticle spacings at any power. I did that with my son's scope. Set some 600ml bottles at 400 yards, told him the dopes and let him shoot. Took him a while to get the first bottle and told me my dopes were wrong. Problem was he was using 5 power not 9. After he set the scope on 9 power and used the dopes I told him he hit all the next bottles first shot.
With a bdc reticle, even one that has a balistic app it pays to shoot it at longer range to confirm the setting.
Even good quality scopes can be out. Are the clicks quarter inch at 100 yards or 1 centimetre at 100 meters or even moa clicks. You need to know.at shorter ranges it's no big deal but as range increases it can make a big difference.
Bob

 

[shootist~]

@shootist~
If you have a collimator you can check you reticle spacings at any power. I did that with my son's scope. Set some 600ml bottles at 400 yards, told him the dopes and let him shoot. Took him a while to get the first bottle and told me my dopes were wrong. Problem was he was using 5 power not 9. After he set the scope on 9 power and used the dopes I told him he hit all the next bottles first shot.
With a bdc reticle, even one that has a balistic app it pays to shoot it at longer range to confirm the setting.
Even good quality scopes can be out. Are the clicks quarter inch at 100 yards or 1 centimetre at 100 meters or even moa clicks. You need to know.at shorter ranges it's no big deal but as range increases it can make a big difference.
Bob

Bob,

I agree 100% with checking at distance to see if reticle Or dialing is on.

The other thing you can and need to do if dialing is set up a target (using a meter stick - assuming Mil based) at 100M and dial up 1 Mil at at time per shot. POI should go up 4" (for me) = 10 cm for you for each Mil dialed. Can work for BDC too, but much more complicated.

I prefer simple Mil Dot (or MOA based) hash marks over BDC, but that's partly because I like to Zero well beyond 100 for almost everything. Exception being the 9.3 with heavy bullets. (Most BDC scopes need a 100 Yd or Meter zero.) I have two Vortex Razor Light Hunter scopes with BDC, btw.

My NF scopes all dial to within ~1% of where they are supposed to. The Trijicon Accupoint is very close through 2 Mils - but then off by roughly 4% (dialing). But it's only a 1x6 and is now mounted on the 9.3x62. No dialing is anticipated with the 1x6 Accupoint, but the reticle got me to 425 easy enough when testing (on a 308). On the 9.3x62 zeroed at 40/120, a one Mil (dot) hold takes me perfectly to our 225 Yard steel with my 300 grain A-F load. But I have to be on 6x.

@Inline6 is absolute correct about the practice requirement. Reticle holds (including BDC) are really easy to screw up - especially with a 2nd focal optic. Best to avoid unless you have enough time and actually need it, IMO.

 

[Flewis]

I owned and shot both these cartridges for decades. i can assure you that, in the field, in 'practical' shooting, there IS a difference. And, yes, using both cartridges I have make shots from nearly point blank to well over 300 yards. The 6.5 X 55 is a great cartridge and accurate, but the 7mm RM is accurate and more effective on longer shots. YMMV.

I think the funny thing about all this hate about anything new is getting posted by the same members using iPhones.

 

[Nevada Mike]

How did you reach this conclusion?

 

[Inline6]

@shootist~ the other thing that needs to be checked is the reticle drifting left or right as you dial up. I usually use a plumb line to check it. Just another tool for the tool box.

 

[CBH Australia]

Good point but I don't think we are against all the technology. Myself I use a basic cheap touchscreen phone.

I didn't jump on the Creedmoor bandwagon because of the nonsense sprouted about it by people making ridiculous comparison s .

I will get a range finder in time, people think I'm old and grumpy at 50 I'm sure I can improve with age.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I think the funny thing about all this hate about anything new is getting posted by the same members using iPhones.

@Flewis
I still can't get my head around i phones stick with basic Android.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Good point but I don't think we are against all the technology. Myself I use a basic cheap touchscreen phone.

I didn't jump on the Creedmoor bandwagon because of the nonsense sprouted about it by people making ridiculous comparison s .

I will get a range finder in time, people think I'm old and grumpy at 50 I'm sure I can improve with age.

@CBH Australia
Chris you are a grumpy bastard. Yes it improves with time. YOU GET GRUMPIER.
Bob

 

[Hogpatrol]

I've since switched over to FFP scopes, from 6-18, 4-20, and 5-30 with moa reticles. I set targets at 100, 200, 300, 385 and 500 (all meters). Five shot groups with best load, sight in with main crosshair at 100, then use the main crosshair at the remaining targets, five shot groups. I put a three inch fluorescent target over the group at each range and looking through the scope, see where it matches up with the graduated vertical moa lines. Unlike SFP scopes where this only works at one magnification setting, the FFP work at any. I also use the drop number in my dope chart and compare with the ballistic app for longer ranges..

 

[CoElkHunter]

@Flewis
I still can't get my head around i phones stick with basic Android.

Come on Bob get with it! Iphone 14 and the new 7mmPRC. Maybe you could get a package deal? LOL

 

[Inline6]

Come on Bob get with it! Iphone 14 and the new 7mmPRC. Maybe you could get a package deal? LOL

The design of the 7PRC is going to be interesting.

The IPhone 14 is still behind Samsung.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Come on Bob get with it! Iphone 14 and the new 7mmPRC. Maybe you could get a package deal? LOL

@CoElkHunter
It ain't a 25 or 35 so you can keep the 7mm along with the phone.
Bob

 

[CoElkHunter]

The design of the 7PRC is going to be interesting.

The IPhone 14 is still behind Samsung.

I read this online article in American Hunter the other day. An interesting comparison.

 

[Inline6]

I read this online article in American Hunter the other day. An interesting comparison.

I have not read it, so I'm not sure what's in it. I don't think a 7mmRM will push a 180 to 2950. It also has a belt which I am not the biggest fan of. The other thing most rifles chambered in 7mmRM do not have a fast twist to stabilize the heavy class of bullets.

 

[CoElkHunter]

I have not read it, so I'm not sure what's in it. I don't think a 7mmRM will push a 180 to 2950. It also has a belt which I am not the biggest fan of. The other thing most rifles chambered in 7mmRM do not have a fast twist to stabilize the heavy class of bullets.

But, one can usually find 7RM brass. Looking around the internet, brass for a lot of even common cartridges is still MIA.

 

[Inline6]

But, one can usually find 7RM brass. Looking around the internet, brass for a lot of even common cartridges is still MIA.

Get that, my goal is to buy enough that I don't need to worry about it 300 pieces should last me a barrel. It is just one of those things. I try to buy enough components to burn a barrel out. That seems to work the best for me. I'm guessing this in a 1600 round or less kind of round.