As Kevin stated just about everything on the 89b is a improvement in “balance & feel” like you pick up you double to go check on something and it feels “just right.
Thanks...
It seems you are well qualified having owned 7 double rifles, I'm sure your Rigby is an amazing gun. Thanks for your input, you have certainly outlined one of my options.
There is an incredible amount of information one can glean from AH along with plenty of knowledgeable members that I’m sure would be more than happy to advise someone on a rifle purchase without requiring a commission..
www.africahunting.com
I was suggesting a level of service well beyond that. There would be much involvement by a consultant related to the inspection and analysis of the individual rifle. Some of these are high end and can be expensive. I wouldn’t , as an uninformed buyer, go into a deal like this without a professional by my side. You might get lucky without one but in most cases the service would pay for itself and the buyer very happy as is the case usually with Rookhawk.There is an incredible amount of information one can glean from AH along with plenty of knowledgeable members that I’m sure would be more than happy to advise someone on a rifle purchase without requiring a commission..
Good Gun Deals This Week
Well, I went back to the LGS and it was a consignment gun. I bought it for $850 plus tax. You did good! I think that is what I paid for a new one 10 or 12 years ago.
If you’re going to go that route it’d probably be best to have it inspected by an actual professional. I’ll leave it at that. Have a good evening
In my experience there is no one better than JJ Perodeau to do this. He has inspected every DR I have bought, gave his approval and fixed anything that was needed so the gun was perfect before I even fired it. Priceless!!!
I did call Chris Sells last week, very nice and knowledgeable guy. When I've had a little bit of DG double rifle experience under my belt and feel that I know what I want I may consider a new Heym order.
As suspected, the only "flaw" with using water table as jargon, is that a water table is NOT flat at all...unless it's glacial or rain water trapped in a confined aquifer (or the natural underground "tanks" often w/ spanish names in the SW, tanajas, etc., in which case it's NOT a water table, or unconfined aquifer in unconsolidated, near-surface soils.) The water table follows the topograpy; it has a slope or hydraulic gradient (without it, the water would never flow!) Even a decent sized pond, lake and of course streams, rivers that appear flat-they of course have a gradient that causes them to fill up and discharge. While it is possible to have relatively small flat spots where the ground is flat above, it still slopes up towards the hill it came from and the water body it eventually discharges into. We have to measure the slope of the water table in small increments to determine the rate of flow, how much water we can extract (or pump treated stuff back into the aquifer as CA is fond of!) 'NOT faulting you. I also hear people saying "this is artesian water from our well..." ALL the time. I know of very few artesian wells (no pump required; it's under such a pressure head it just flows out of the ground naturally. PSU is fed by a HUGE artesian well at the bottom of a steep, tall mountain with fractured limestone as the "piping" system that allows the great flow and pressure buildup. I would NOT want a water table dimension on my receiver!!! LOL I never heard that said, so I had to ask! All else is detailed, valuable info for deciding upon a quality double!!!x10e23 Bidenomics FLAT (Economy/Gov't.) would be more apropos, although Perfectly Square, Trued, Blueprinted, and perfect CL (centerline) are machinists terms i'm exceedingly familiar with! Sry, i've been jaded by worldwide water tables that are def NOT square in chemistry or physicality!!! lol Example basic water table surface map attached...it slopes 100' just in this small area. Bad analogy from whomever.Funny I would see this thread now, I just posted the below on another thread (the sale of my own K Gun)
So, here you go, UpNorthMI, I hope that this will be useful
Buying a used double
You get what you pay for! I wish I could claim authorship, but the quote if from Red Leg, and goes along the lines of: beware the differences between a rifle that will last 100 rounds and a rifle that will last 100 years. I can only bow down and say Amen!
Play safe! Buy from a reputable maker. With Heym, UpNorthMI, you are safe! The same would be with Krieghoff, Chapuis, Blaser, or Merkel, not to mention Rigby (made in London, NOT in California), Holland & Holland, Westley Richards, Purdey, Woodward, Francotte, Thys, Franz Sodia, etc. and also a number of other makers of the Golden Area such as Boss, Lang, Lancaster, etc.
DO NOT listen to the sirens, and stay away from $8,000 brand new double rifles in DG stopper calibers, however alluring the engraving and the wood might be, these are but details compared to what counts in a DG double...
What's behind a name? But for a used gun, buying the name is not enough. Some great guns have been completely trashed by careless owners, or damaged beyond repair by irresponsible reloading or ill-conceived bullets.
The "water table" is the top flat part of the action upon which the bottom flat part of the barrels (the "barrels flats") comes to rest when the action is closed.
The "face" is the vertical part of the action against which the breech of the barrels come to rest when the action is closed.
Two great potential issues with a double can be:
It must be noted that both issues result in similar symptoms: a gap on the face, and a gap at the rear of the water table where it meets the face, but the telltale sign of a bent water table is that it will not be straight under a machinist edge.
- Worn bolts that slide in the underlugs and that do not draw the barrels flats tightly onto the action water table, and the breech tightly against the face.
- A bent water table, when the action was submitted to excessive force with over-pressure ammo (cordite ammo cooked in the sun was the classic issue; ill-advised maximum reloads are the modern issue) that try to force the action open during firing. As the brass is pushed back on the face and tries to escape upward because the barrels hinge pin is located under the barrels, the barrels that are locked to the water table by the bolts in the underlugs cannot move, and the action itself bends. Remember that double rifles take a lot less pressure (~40,000 PSI) than bolt actions (~65,000 PSI).
A double rifle "on the face" and with a "tight water table" is a rifle that has no gap between face and breech, and no gap anywhere between barrels flats and water table, especially where the water table meets the face.
You can test this very easily. A double rifle should not be able to fully close, that is the opening top lever should not be able to swing back all the way to the center of the action if a thin wedge of 20 lb. paper (thinnest common copy paper) is placed either between the breech and the face, or between the barrels flats and the water table. In the old days the test used cigarette paper. The action was supposed to fully close and lock, but the paper was supposed to tear when pulled from the closed action.
DO NOT buy (and be circumspect of shooting too much) a double, used or new, (yes, new!!! you would be surprised by some lower priced doubles........... you get what you pay for ...........) that allows a wedge of paper to slide freely between the breech and the face, or between the barrels flats and the water table, and/or shows light between the water table and a machinist edge placed on top of it. It is either a poorly made double, or a worn double (this can possibly be fixed by replacing the bolts that lock in the underlugs, but not always), or a damaged double.
Conversely, a double does not need to be so tight that you need to bend over your knee to break it open (that is more than awkward when the Buff charges!). A well broken-in double with extractors will open under the weight of its barrels, and one with ejectors will easily open with a small downward pressure on the barrels, but either must have zero lateral or transversal play caused by a worn hinge pin (that can be replaced, but not always). So, tight but smooth is what you are looking for.
Check the usual and visual clues:
The other major potential issue, aside from the above easy to check clues, is worn or ill adjusted sears that will cause the rifle to "double" (fire both shots quasi simultaneously).
- Smoothness of the chambers - cordite used to corrode them incredibly fast; so does lack of proper care today in humid climates;
- Absence of erosion of the throats - caused by repeated shooting of excessively long strings;
- Sharpness of the rifling - worn barrels from numerous steel jacketed solids in the old days, or use of too-hard early modern naval bronze bullets (e.g. A Square Monolithic);
- Rifling pushed out - look at the barrels outside tangentially facing the light; if you can discern the shadow of the rifling on the external side of the barrels, DO NOT buy. The rifling has been pushed outward by naval bronze solids, typically A Square Monolithic, and the barrels are damaged. Will they burst on the next round? Likely not, but who knows? Yes, it is real, I saw it with my own eyes...
This can only be tested by firing the rifle, but not everyone can test it. Indeed most of the rifles doubling are not due to defective rifles, but to novice shooters who "strum" the rear trigger under recoil.
Assuming that you know how to shoot a double without hitting involuntarily the rear trigger under recoil ("strumming" it), the way to test (without reaping your head and shoulder off) that a rifle is not doubling is to load a live round in the first barrel and a primed shell (no powder, no bullet) in the second barrel. If both primers are hit when you open the action after firing the first barrel, the rifle has a problem...
It goes to say that if you think that your rifle doubles, and you ask a more experienced shooter to perform the above test, and the second primer comes out pristine, you know what/who the problem is...
And of course, the rifle must group less than 4" at 50 yards with about any commercial ammo, and the holy grail is 2" at 50 yards (Rigby say 1.5" at 65 yards, which is the same as the trajectories start to converge), with your hunting ammo. Yes, yes, I know, I can already hear the slurping of the 1/4" "snipers" licking the stamps for the hate mail about the unacceptability of a 2" groups, never mind 4" groups, but in the real world, where doubles are mostly shot off hand at big targets (including elephant brains) at short range, 2" is a 1/4 minute of Buffalo vitals and 1/2 minute of Elephant brain, and even 4" is OK if your ammo was lost in transit and you can only shot what you find in country.
And the rifle must fit you. In the old days, and still today for wealthy customer's, people were measured for their double, as they were for their suits. But if you are blessed with the "common man" anatomy, neither too tall or too short, anywhere between 5 ft. some and 6ft and a few, and you look good in an off-the-rack suit, you will generally be OK with a double produced by a maker that uses a standard template to shape the stock, which is the majority of doubles produced, save here or there for an artisanal one.
Everything else is just cosmetics... Wood can be refinished, steel re-polished and re-blued, rear or front sight height changed, recoil pad lengthened or shortened, etc. etc.
All of that to say that @Green Chile said something really profound when it comes to buy a used double, or even a new one for that matter: getting a rifle that has been "sorted" is an enormous plus.
@One Day... simply an outstanding post!!!!! Very well done sir!!!!!Funny I would see this thread now, I just posted the below on another thread (the sale of my own K Gun)
So, here you go, UpNorthMI, I hope that this will be useful
Buying a used double
You get what you pay for! I wish I could claim authorship, but the quote if from Red Leg, and goes along the lines of: beware the differences between a rifle that will last 100 rounds and a rifle that will last 100 years. I can only bow down and say Amen!
Play safe! Buy from a reputable maker. With Heym, UpNorthMI, you are safe! The same would be with Krieghoff, Chapuis, Blaser, or Merkel, not to mention Rigby (made in London, NOT in California), Holland & Holland, Westley Richards, Purdey, Woodward, Francotte, Thys, Franz Sodia, etc. and also a number of other makers of the Golden Area such as Boss, Lang, Lancaster, etc.
DO NOT listen to the sirens, and stay away from $8,000 brand new double rifles in DG stopper calibers, however alluring the engraving and the wood might be, these are but details compared to what counts in a DG double...
What's behind a name? But for a used gun, buying the name is not enough. Some great guns have been completely trashed by careless owners, or damaged beyond repair by irresponsible reloading or ill-conceived bullets.
The "water table" is the top flat part of the action upon which the bottom flat part of the barrels (the "barrels flats") comes to rest when the action is closed.
The "face" is the vertical part of the action against which the breech of the barrels come to rest when the action is closed.
Two great potential issues with a double can be:
It must be noted that both issues result in similar symptoms: a gap on the face, and a gap at the rear of the water table where it meets the face, but the telltale sign of a bent water table is that it will not be straight under a machinist edge.
- Worn bolts that slide in the underlugs and that do not draw the barrels flats tightly onto the action water table, and the breech tightly against the face.
- A bent water table, when the action was submitted to excessive force with over-pressure ammo (cordite ammo cooked in the sun was the classic issue; ill-advised maximum reloads are the modern issue) that try to force the action open during firing. As the brass is pushed back on the face and tries to escape upward because the barrels hinge pin is located under the barrels, the barrels that are locked to the water table by the bolts in the underlugs cannot move, and the action itself bends. Remember that double rifles take a lot less pressure (~40,000 PSI) than bolt actions (~65,000 PSI).
A double rifle "on the face" and with a "tight water table" is a rifle that has no gap between face and breech, and no gap anywhere between barrels flats and water table, especially where the water table meets the face.
You can test this very easily. A double rifle should not be able to fully close, that is the opening top lever should not be able to swing back all the way to the center of the action if a thin wedge of 20 lb. paper (thinnest common copy paper) is placed either between the breech and the face, or between the barrels flats and the water table. In the old days the test used cigarette paper. The action was supposed to fully close and lock, but the paper was supposed to tear when pulled from the closed action.
DO NOT buy (and be circumspect of shooting too much) a double, used or new, (yes, new!!! you would be surprised by some lower priced doubles........... you get what you pay for ...........) that allows a wedge of paper to slide freely between the breech and the face, or between the barrels flats and the water table, and/or shows light between the water table and a machinist edge placed on top of it. It is either a poorly made double, or a worn double (this can possibly be fixed by replacing the bolts that lock in the underlugs, but not always), or a damaged double.
Conversely, a double does not need to be so tight that you need to bend over your knee to break it open (that is more than awkward when the Buff charges!). A well broken-in double with extractors will open under the weight of its barrels, and one with ejectors will easily open with a small downward pressure on the barrels, but either must have zero lateral or transversal play caused by a worn hinge pin (that can be replaced, but not always). So, tight but smooth is what you are looking for.
Check the usual and visual clues:
The other major potential issue, aside from the above easy to check clues, is worn or ill adjusted sears that will cause the rifle to "double" (fire both shots quasi simultaneously).
- Smoothness of the chambers - cordite used to corrode them incredibly fast; so does lack of proper care today in humid climates;
- Absence of erosion of the throats - caused by repeated shooting of excessively long strings;
- Sharpness of the rifling - worn barrels from numerous steel jacketed solids in the old days, or use of too-hard early modern naval bronze bullets (e.g. A Square Monolithic);
- Rifling pushed out - look at the barrels outside tangentially facing the light; if you can discern the shadow of the rifling on the external side of the barrels, DO NOT buy. The rifling has been pushed outward by naval bronze solids, typically A Square Monolithic, and the barrels are damaged. Will they burst on the next round? Likely not, but who knows? Yes, it is real, I saw it with my own eyes...
This can only be tested by firing the rifle, but not everyone can test it. Indeed most of the rifles doubling are not due to defective rifles, but to novice shooters who "strum" the rear trigger under recoil.
Assuming that you know how to shoot a double without hitting involuntarily the rear trigger under recoil ("strumming" it), the way to test (without reaping your head and shoulder off) that a rifle is not doubling is to load a live round in the first barrel and a primed shell (no powder, no bullet) in the second barrel. If both primers are hit when you open the action after firing the first barrel, the rifle has a problem...
It goes to say that if you think that your rifle doubles, and you ask a more experienced shooter to perform the above test, and the second primer comes out pristine, you know what/who the problem is...
And of course, the rifle must group less than 4" at 50 yards with about any commercial ammo, and the holy grail is 2" at 50 yards (Rigby say 1.5" at 65 yards, which is the same as the trajectories start to converge), with your hunting ammo. Yes, yes, I know, I can already hear the slurping of the 1/4" "snipers" licking the stamps for the hate mail about the unacceptability of a 2" groups, never mind 4" groups, but in the real world, where doubles are mostly shot off hand at big targets (including elephant brains) at short range, 2" is a 1/4 minute of Buffalo vitals and 1/2 minute of Elephant brain, and even 4" is OK if your ammo was lost in transit and you can only shot what you find in country.
And the rifle must fit you. In the old days, and still today for wealthy customer's, people were measured for their double, as they were for their suits. But if you are blessed with the "common man" anatomy, neither too tall or too short, anywhere between 5 ft. some and 6ft and a few, and you look good in an off-the-rack suit, you will generally be OK with a double produced by a maker that uses a standard template to shape the stock, which is the majority of doubles produced, save here or there for an artisanal one.
Everything else is just cosmetics... Wood can be refinished, steel re-polished and re-blued, rear or front sight height changed, recoil pad lengthened or shortened, etc. etc.
All of that to say that @Green Chile said something really profound when it comes to buy a used double, or even a new one for that matter: getting a rifle that has been "sorted" is an enormous plus.
